Republicans and democrats don't understand each other

[Alan Goldhammer]

Trump attacked the Squad for being unpatriotic not because they are people of color.  Of course, the democrats pull out the race card as they always do.  After all, according to them, a white person is a racist in America if they disagree with a person of color regardless of the issue.  It's really getting tiring.

Why have some high profile Republicans stated that it was a racist comment?  What in any of the statements is unpatriotic given that we have free speech in the US?  Why should they be asked to go back to the countries of their origin?  Why are statements such as those in these Tweets, and the response by people attending the President's campaign rallies ('send them back') acceptable discourse?

Answers please.

[RSL]

Medicare for All is the best example!  Sanders has no clue what it would cost and has not addressed the vehement opposition from doctors and hospitals.  Current Medicare needs a legislative fix every now and then because it never fully accounted for doctors fees.

The worst result, outside of bankrupting the nation, would be the loss of MD's. Who would be dumb enough to go through medical school, residency, and the whole shootin' match so he could work for government bureaucrats? Right. Those incompetents who stuck with the program would be the doctors you'd who'd be working on you.

[Rob C]

The worst result, outside of bankrupting the nation, would be the loss of MD's. Who would be dumb enough to go through medical school, residency, and the whole shootin' match so he could work for government bureaucrats? Right. Those incompetents who stuck with the program would be the doctors you'd who'd be working on you.

Let me approach this one delicately, Russ; are you suggesting that the American medical system grants a licence to practise to those less than competent so to do?

Ann's first oncologist and my first stent were courtesy American-trained Spaniards; well, partly American-trained, that is. I say Spaniards, but here you never know: South America sends thousands of people to Spain and its islands. And thank goodnes for that! The Spaniards themselves are all in Britian! Come a bad Brexit, who we gonna call?

They seemed to know what they were doing... at least, as patients/victims/research specimens we thought they knew what they were about.

;-)

[LesPalenik]

Cubans are also very good doctors, and they are paid pittance.

As to the doctors in Canada, the surgeons are first class.
However, when it comes to GP's, rheumatologists, neurologists and even cardiologists, they are good mainly in ordering the tests and filling out the prescriptions. Also they don't know much about the proper nutrition.

[Alan Klein]

Why have some high profile Republicans stated that it was a racist comment?  What in any of the statements is unpatriotic given that we have free speech in the US?  Why should they be asked to go back to the countries of their origin?  Why are statements such as those in these Tweets, and the response by people attending the President's campaign rallies ('send them back') acceptable discourse?

Answers please.

The reason Democrats have resorted to using the race card for 50 years is that it works.  It shuts people up.  No one wants to be called a racist.  They vote and take positions to "prove" they're not racist. So when you say something, even if it isn't racist, and someone calls you a racist, your first reaction is to defend yourself and question whether what you said was racist.  The race card has people reacting like Pavlov's dog. 

It Trump calls a black congresswomen unpatriotic, that doesn;t make it racist.  You're conflating the two.  If you think it's unacceptable discourse, fine, call it that.  We can have a conversation about whether she is patriotic or not.  But don't immediately call comments racist just because the congresswomen is black. 

[Alan Goldhammer]

US medical schools are operating at capacity right now and there still are not enough doctors to fill all the needs of the country.  Rural areas are particularly under served.  The current US healthcare system is doing nothing to address the closure of small bed hospitals in rural areas.  Lots of medical students see the profession as a calling and are not preoccupied with making large amounts of money.  We see in countries where there is universal coverage no shortage of doctors (who are paid less than their American counterparts) nor are medical school enrollments dropping.  It's worth noting that there are a number of physicians groups other than the American Medical Association who have come out in favor of universal coverage.  Such coverage does not have to be 'Medicare for All.'  Most of those who post on various forums have little understanding about how healthcare functions in the rest of the world or how universal healthcare can be implemented in the United States.  As I have often noted, TR Reid's fine book, 'The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care' is an excellent place to start.  Reid and his family experienced first hand a number of foreign healthcare systems when he was a foreign correspondent for the Washington Post a while back.  He was able to get an appointment with one of the top orthopedic surgeons in Japan within 24 hours; try that in the US.

For those who want to dive deeper into one approach to universal healthcare, Fuchs and Emanuel proposed a universal voucher system relying on private delivery of healthcare using existing HMOs and insurance companies.  It would eliminate Medicaid, Medicare and corporate subsidized insurance.

[Alan Goldhammer]

The reason Democrats have resorted to using the race card for 50 years is that it works.  It shuts people up.  No one wants to be called a racist.  They vote and take positions to "prove" they're not racist. So when you say something, even if it isn't racist, and someone calls you a racist, your first reaction is to defend yourself and question whether what you said was racist.  The race card has people reacting like Pavlov's dog. 

It Trump calls a black congresswomen unpatriotic, that doesn;t make it racist.  You're conflating the two.  If you think it's unacceptable discourse, fine, call it that.  We can have a conversation about whether she is patriotic or not.  But don't immediately call comments racist just because the congresswomen is black.

You answered only one question and seem not to be concerned that there are Republicans who were disturbed about what happened at the North Carolina rally.  Some of them believe the statements were of racist intent.  There is a long documented history of Trump's past actions that were construed by others of being racist.  This is not a fantasy world.

[RSL]

Let me approach this one delicately, Russ; are you suggesting that the American medical system grants a licence to practise to those less than competent so to do?

Ann's first oncologist and my first stent were courtesy American-trained Spaniards; well, partly American-trained, that is. I say Spaniards, but here you never know: South America sends thousands of people to Spain and its islands. And thank goodnes for that! The Spaniards themselves are all in Britian! Come a bad Brexit, who we gonna call?

They seemed to know what they were doing... at least, as patients/victims/research specimens we thought they knew what they were about.

;-)

Rob, my primary care doc came up from South America, and he’s excellent. He and a partner started a practice, but eventually he and the partner had a falling out. The partner left, and Cesar eventually found it necessary to join a medical group associated with a local hospital. He’s a good example of the kind of guy who got caught in the gradual ingestion of the whole medical world by the government.

The very best doc I ever had was recommended to me by one of my two nurse daughters-in-law. He was really, really good, but as the government began gnawing its way into the profession, finally he said “screw it,” and retired.

There are plenty of docs who are in medicine because they want to help people, but I get an earful about Canadian health care from Canadian snowbirds who come to Florida in the winter. Surely, now that I’ve said that, there’ll be one or two Canadians who’ll jump in and tell me how great Canadian health care is. And I’m sure there are plenty of examples of that. But I also have a pretty clear idea of how long it takes to get, say, an MRI in Canada. Yet, if my doc calls ahead, I can walk into the local medical testing facility and get an MRI on the spot. Canadians down from Canada can too. In some cases it’s a life or death situation, so testing delays can be fatal.

I certainly sympathize with you over the problems you’re having as a result of brexit – or at least the inability of the UK government to get on with it and make a decision. If you check the history of the United States government you’ll realize the British government isn’t unique in that respect. I keep hoping things will work out for you in the end.

[Rob C]

The reason Democrats have resorted to using the race card for 50 years is that it works.  It shuts people up.  No one wants to be called a racist.  They vote and take positions to "prove" they're not racist. So when you say something, even if it isn't racist, and someone calls you a racist, your first reaction is to defend yourself and question whether what you said was racist.  The race card has people reacting like Pavlov's dog. 

It Trump calls a black congresswomen unpatriotic, that doesn;t make it racist.  You're conflating the two.  If you think it's unacceptable discourse, fine, call it that.  We can have a conversation about whether she is patriotic or not.  But don't immediately call comments racist just because the congresswomen is black.

I agree with you. I have a friend who lives in Newcastle-upon-Tyne in northern England. He, in turn, has an Asian friend who owns a couple of restaurants. He once asked him how he'd managed to get permision to open one of them where he did: the Asian gentleman  laughed, and said it's easy: if they refuse to grant me a licence I play the race card! Honest, this is literally what my friend told me.

The entire race thing has become a double-sided ploy, just another technique to render the playing fields biased to individual advantages. That's on the upper levels of the financial space. On the lower levels, it's another story completely.

So yeah, even race has turned into just another lever of power.

Rob

[Alan Klein]

Let me approach this one delicately, Russ; are you suggesting that the American medical system grants a licence to practise to those less than competent so to do?

Ann's first oncologist and my first stent were courtesy American-trained Spaniards; well, partly American-trained, that is. I say Spaniards, but here you never know: South America sends thousands of people to Spain and its islands. And thank goodnes for that! The Spaniards themselves are all in Britian! Come a bad Brexit, who we gonna call?

They seemed to know what they were doing... at least, as patients/victims/research specimens we thought they knew what they were about.

;-)

I'm glad your wife had good oncologists and hope she's doing well.  I had cancer surgery 18 years ago.  My insurance company picked up most of the hospital and surgeon costs.  The surgeon was one of the tops in the field.

Medicare in America for those over 65 covers the cost of medicine.  However, doctors are allowed to "opt out".  That means they can charge higher fees than Medicare reimburses and their patients pay out-of-pocket.  You cannot submit their bills to Medicare for reimbursement. You can't even get back the small portion they would have paid to other doctors who didn't opt out.  A lot of the better doctors especially in cities like New York have opted out.  The NY Hospital of Special Surgery, the finest orthopedic hospital in the country, has loads of doctors who have opted out. If you want their services, you better have deep pockets.  Otherwise you have to accept less competent doctors.  Fortunately when I had heart surgery in April in another NYC hospital, I had (I hope) one the best and Medicare picked up the costs.  He hadn't opted out.  He was Japanese. 

If future law creates a Medicare for all, and eliminates "opting out", many brilliant people who would have become great doctors will find other professions.  So the capability of our doctors will decline.  Had I needed my cancer surgery after age 65, I could not have afforded to use the top qualified surgeon I did.  He's one of those who have "opted out". 

[RSL]

US medical schools are operating at capacity right now and there still are not enough doctors to fill all the needs of the country.  Rural areas are particularly under served.  The current US healthcare system is doing nothing to address the closure of small bed hospitals in rural areas.  Lots of medical students see the profession as a calling and are not preoccupied with making large amounts of money.  We see in countries where there is universal coverage no shortage of doctors (who are paid less than their American counterparts) nor are medical school enrollments dropping.  It's worth noting that there are a number of physicians groups other than the American Medical Association who have come out in favor of universal coverage.  Such coverage does not have to be 'Medicare for All.'  Most of those who post on various forums have little understanding about how healthcare functions in the rest of the world or how universal healthcare can be implemented in the United States.  As I have often noted, TR Reid's fine book, 'The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care' is an excellent place to start.  Reid and his family experienced first hand a number of foreign healthcare systems when he was a foreign correspondent for the Washington Post a while back.  He was able to get an appointment with one of the top orthopedic surgeons in Japan within 24 hours; try that in the US.

For those who want to dive deeper into one approach to universal healthcare, Fuchs and Emanuel proposed a universal voucher system relying on private delivery of healthcare using existing HMOs and insurance companies.  It would eliminate Medicaid, Medicare and corporate subsidized insurance.

Good for you, Alan. You've made it abundantly clear where you stand.

[Alan Klein]

US medical schools are operating at capacity right now and there still are not enough doctors to fill all the needs of the country.  Rural areas are particularly under served.  The current US healthcare system is doing nothing to address the closure of small bed hospitals in rural areas.  Lots of medical students see the profession as a calling and are not preoccupied with making large amounts of money.  We see in countries where there is universal coverage no shortage of doctors (who are paid less than their American counterparts) nor are medical school enrollments dropping.  It's worth noting that there are a number of physicians groups other than the American Medical Association who have come out in favor of universal coverage.  Such coverage does not have to be 'Medicare for All.'  Most of those who post on various forums have little understanding about how healthcare functions in the rest of the world or how universal healthcare can be implemented in the United States.  As I have often noted, TR Reid's fine book, 'The Healing of America: A Global Quest for Better, Cheaper, and Fairer Health Care' is an excellent place to start.  Reid and his family experienced first hand a number of foreign healthcare systems when he was a foreign correspondent for the Washington Post a while back.  He was able to get an appointment with one of the top orthopedic surgeons in Japan within 24 hours; try that in the US.

For those who want to dive deeper into one approach to universal healthcare, Fuchs and Emanuel proposed a universal voucher system relying on private delivery of healthcare using existing HMOs and insurance companies.  It would eliminate Medicaid, Medicare and corporate subsidized insurance.

A universal voucher system would also have to limit costs by setting doctor and other medical fee schedules. Otherwise, the costs would escalate tremendously just like university costs have skyrocketed due to the government providing college loans to anyone who wants it.  Medicare paid about 1/3 the fees the hospital charged for my surgery in April.    All of this will dumb down doctor care as  some brilliant kids become engineers, or, God forbid, politicians and lawyers.   

[Alan Klein]

Cubans are also very good doctors, and they are paid pittance.

As to the doctors in Canada, the surgeons are first class.
However, when it comes to GP's, rheumatologists, neurologists and even cardiologists, they are good mainly in ordering the tests and filling out the prescriptions. Also they don't know much about the proper nutrition.

What do you mean?  What's their problem?

[Alan Klein]

You answered only one question and seem not to be concerned that there are Republicans who were disturbed about what happened at the North Carolina rally.  Some of them believe the statements were of racist intent.  There is a long documented history of Trump's past actions that were construed by others of being racist.  This is not a fantasy world.

You created a straw man.  We were talking about AOC and the squad being unpatriotic.  Stick to the subject.

[Alan Klein]

A universal voucher system would also have to limit costs by setting doctor and other medical fee schedules. Otherwise, the costs would escalate tremendously just like university costs have skyrocketed due to the government providing college loans to anyone who wants it.  Medicare paid about 1/3 the fees the hospital charged for my surgery in April.    All of this will dumb down doctor care as  some brilliant kids become engineers, or, God forbid, politicians and lawyers.   

Just to clarify.  While Medicare paid 1/3 the hospital charges, no one paid the remaining 2/3's. That was washed away.  The hospital didn't get that from anyone. 

[Rob C]

I'm glad your wife had good oncologists and hope she's doing well.  I had cancer surgery 18 years ago.  My insurance company picked up most of the hospital and surgeon costs.  The surgeon was one of the tops in the field.

Medicare in America for those over 65 covers the cost of medicine.  However, doctors are allowed to "opt out".  That means they can charge higher fees than Medicare reimburses and their patients pay out-of-pocket.  You cannot submit their bills to Medicare for reimbursement. You can't even get back the small portion they would have paid to other doctors who didn't opt out.  A lot of the better doctors especially in cities like New York have opted out.  The NY Hospital of Special Surgery, the finest orthopedic hospital in the country, has loads of doctors who have opted out. If you want their services, you better have deep pockets.  Otherwise you have to accept less competent doctors.  Fortunately when I had heart surgery in April in another NYC hospital, I had (I hope) one the best and Medicare picked up the costs.  He hadn't opted out.  He was Japanese. 

If future law creates a Medicare for all, and eliminates "opting out", many brilliant people who would have become great doctors will find other professions.  So the capability of our doctors will decline.  Had I needed my cancer surgery after age 65, I could not have afforded to use the top qualified surgeon I did.  He's one of those who have "opted out".

Alan - if my wife's doing well, she doing it in heaven! She found her lump one November, and four Novembers and umpteen surgeries later she lost the war.

The first few ops were on private insurance and they were excellent people with whom to deal (Mapfre). Six or seven months before she died she fell and broke her hip on the edge of a pavement. The pain forced her to elect to go to the National Health hospital which is only twenty-five or so minutes away, whereas the private one at least double that time. Once there, they discovered that the cancer had returned. The onco. said he did not want to wait more than ten days to get her into surgery. Within ten days she had both a new hip and the cancer operation. The guy who did the hip job was German. She walked out of that hospital without a limp, stick or crutches. She was perfect. Six months later she was gone: nothing more they could do for her.

She was so impressed with the National system that she questioned why we were spending so much every year on private health. I cancelled. Subsequently, I realised that excellent though the national system is, once you are in it, that's the problem: getting appointments for non-life-threatening work such as my cataracts.

Either way, I could not have afforded to keep paying what I was paying those eleven years ago; today's prices would have forced the issue anyway.

Rob

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

You created a straw man.  We were talking about AOC and the squad being unpatriotic.  Stick to the subject.

So, what's unpatriotic then? And what justifies Racism?

Cheers,
Bart

[James Clark]

You created a straw man.  We were talking about AOC and the squad being unpatriotic.  Stick to the subject.

LOL.  You gotta be kidding me.  The only people focusing like a laser on AOC and her group being unpatriotic are the people on the right trying to completely ignore the "go back from the country they came from" part. 

The question is,

1) is Trump so ignorant that he doesn't know that three of the four are natural-born American citizens and assumes that because they're not white, they must be foreign; or

2) Is he aware, but figures his base is so ignorant that he can say any brown person he disagrees with is, literally, unAmerican?

Before answering, consider his bullshit Obama birtherism, and his assertion that a Federal judge couldn't adjudicate fairly because of his ethnicity.

[Alan Goldhammer]

   All of this will dumb down doctor care as  some brilliant kids become engineers, or, God forbid, politicians and lawyers. 

As I noted in my original post there is no proof that this will happen.  It doesn't happen in any European country where there are a variety of approaches to universal health care.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Just to clarify.  While Medicare paid 1/3 the hospital charges, no one paid the remaining 2/3's. That was washed away.  The hospital didn't get that from anyone.

WRONG, they make up for the loss by charging a higher premium to private insurers.