Republicans and democrats don't understand each other

[RSL]

All this incredible minefield of potential fiscal annihilation, and you still turn the collective nose up at the very idea of a national, free-at-point-of-use service! I never would have imagined that dogma and the painful effects of it could still stand between you and the simple solution: a little social sense of collective responsibility and something for the common good.

But no, government is out to destroy you. Government is so dumb that it doesn't understand that when it destroys you it has destroyed itself. Heysoos, your pool of possible politician candidates must be even worse -  and even more thick - than ours! Who would have imagined that possible? But isn't there something written on those stone tablets to the effect that you ultimately get what you deserve?
 
Just watched ex-PM John Major in a good interview on, broadly, the next Tory PM and Brexit. At last a man who can tell it like it is - even if it is only because, as he says, he is out of politics. What a shame Alan didn't get a chance to hear him - not that I expect it would have helped him much. But anyway, as Major said, in a choice between party or country, country must come first. That would never translate, dear me no!

A shame so many good people have become so disenchanted with party and, in some cases, country.

Rob, I wish you could visit me here in Florida during the winter and chat with the Canadians who come down so they can go to a doctor, pay, and get what they need: simple things like MRI's. It's not that they can't get the stuff in Canada, but that they may die before their number comes up in the system. If anybody in the United States thinks the government can run something better than the free market can, let them go through the process of mailing a package from their local post office, then ship another similar package with UPS or Fed Ex.

[Alan Klein]

All this incredible minefield of potential fiscal annihilation, and you still turn the collective nose up at the very idea of a national, free-at-point-of-use service! I never would have imagined that dogma and the painful effects of it could still stand between you and the simple solution: a little social sense of collective responsibility and something for the common good.

But no, government is out to destroy you. Government is so dumb that it doesn't understand that when it destroys you it has destroyed itself. Heysoos, your pool of possible politician candidates must be even worse -  and even more thick - than ours! Who would have imagined that possible? But isn't there something written on those stone tablets to the effect that you ultimately get what you deserve?
 
Just watched ex-PM John Major in a good interview on, broadly, the next Tory PM and Brexit. At last a man who can tell it like it is - even if it is only because, as he says, he is out of politics. What a shame Alan didn't get a chance to hear him - not that I expect it would have helped him much. But anyway, as Major said, in a choice between party or country, country must come first. That would never translate, dear me no!

A shame so many good people have become so disenchanted with party and, in some cases, country.

There's plenty of charity in the US.  We help each out a lot.  My concern is what you describe is Socialism, where efforts for the common good turns out to become the common bad.  Speaking of British PM's, I reminded of what your Margaret Thatcher said: "They've got the usual Socialist disease – they've run out of other people's money".

[faberryman]

There's plenty of charity in the US.  We help each out a lot.

That is of course why one of the leading causes of personal bankruptcy in the US is unforeseen medical expenses.

[Rob C]

Jeremy, I don't live in GB.  So I'm not familiar with the day-to-day issues regarding this case.   I'm taking the article as telling the truth.  But even if there are untruths in it does not change the fact that government control of our medical care can hurt our rights to make free choices about that care.  Obama lied when he said Obamacare would not cause you to change your doctors.  In the end, a single payer system must make choices since there is not an ever supply of funding to pay for everything.  So government's choices may not comport with the individual's choice so they have lost their freedom to decide.  If you have a disease, and the government says that because of your old age, the government will not fund care, you're screwed.  Unless you're very rich and can pay out of pocket or you can afford to fly to America for the care.  With private insurance, you have more options and more free choices. 

Look how Brexit is affecting national health care, a government controlled system.   Brits overseas, ex-pats, might lose health care once Brexit goes into effect.  Had there been private health care, individuals would still be able to decide what kind and how much care their insurance policies handles.   They lost their freedom to decide how to live by turning their lives over to the care of bureaucrats in government who care little about them.  I would rather keep important decisions about my life in my hands.  I just don't trust the government.  That extends to making end-of-life decisions.  When you go in for serious surgery in the US, the hospital asks you to sign or not sign a DNR (Do Not Resuscitate).  If you sign it, and you have major failure let's say of breathing or your heart during or after the procedure, the hospital will not take extraordinary measures to keep you alive.  They will let nature takes it's course.  If you don't sign it, they are obligated by law to take all measures to keep you alive even if you have to be put in a induced coma state.  There's no telling what government may decide once they take over fully.  That's what makes the British kid's story so important.  It represents a transfer of power to the state about our personal freedoms to make choices.

Harry H. Soos, Alan, get with the reality!

We, the expats caught up abroad in the Brexit shitstorm, ALWAYS HAVE HAD access to private medical insurance, both abroad as in the UK! I ran it in tandem with my and my wife's entitlement to the local Spanish national health service (a RIGHT granted because it was reciprocated in Britain.) It would still be reciprocated in out foreign country of residence only if we leave with an agreed deal, as would the rights of Europeans still living or working in Britain. It is the nightmare scenario of crashing out with no deal, as the Ultra Blue lot wants to do, that tears up everything for both sides.

I no longer have that private cover because it became too bloody expsnsive for me to afford, exactly as in your own case. 

What in hell is there not to understand? It has been reduced to the most simple of terms anyone can formulate - if you don't get it now you never, ever will.

[Alan Klein]

Rob, I wish you could visit me here in Florida during the winter and chat with the Canadians who come down so they can go to a doctor, pay, and get what they need: simple things like MRI's. It's not that they can't get the stuff in Canada, but that they may die before their number comes up in the system. If anybody in the United States thinks the government can run something better than the free market can, let them go through the process of mailing a package from their local post office, then ship another similar package with UPS or Fed Ex.

My wife and I have been at doctors many times when they wanted MRI's or a CT scan in the middle of the appointment.  So their nurse would call the lab up on the phone and give them the prescription.  The we'd take the elevator down to the lab and get the MRI within the hour.  We'd go back up to the doctor who would already have the report that was sent by computer to him so he could continue his treatment.  I can't imagine waiting days or weeks much less months to get an MRI. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Rob, I wish you could visit me here in Florida during the winter and chat with the Canadians who come down so they can go to a doctor, pay, and get what they need: simple things like MRI's. It's not that they can't get the stuff in Canada, but that they may die before their number comes up in the system. If anybody in the United States thinks the government can run something better than the free market can, let them go through the process of mailing a package from their local post office, then ship another similar package with UPS or Fed Ex.

And I could share with you 100 anecdotes of superb medical care in Canada. And nobody here files for bankruptcy because they happen to break their leg.

The data and the surveys are out there and freely available. People with good jobs and with a lot of money get good medical care in the US, everyone knows this. But all the data, from repeated surveys and studies, show that the US spends much more on health care with worse outcomes overall and that a sizeable number of US citizens don't have any medical care, that your time off work because of illness tops most other countries, in short your medical system is very polarized. But I also accept that many of you don't care about this, and that's your choice. If you think you're well served, that's all that matters, but stop making pronouncements on what goes on in other countries based on echo chamber memes. The info is out there, all you have to do is read it.

[faberryman]

My wife and I have been at doctors many times when they wanted MRI's or a CT scan in the middle of the appointment.  So their nurse would call the lab up on the phone and give them the prescription.  The we'd take the elevator down to the lab and get the MRI within the hour.  We'd go back up to the doctor who would already have the report that was sent by computer to him so he could continue his treatment.  I can't imagine waiting days or weeks much less months to get an MRI.

Is this since you have been on Medicare or before when you were on private insurance?

[Rob C]

There's plenty of charity in the US.  We help each out a lot.  My concern is what you describe is Socialism, where efforts for the common good turns out to become the common bad.  Speaking of British PM's, I reminded of what your Margaret Thatcher said: "They've got the usual Socialist disease – they've run out of other people's money".

Terribly poor attempt at quoting, both Mrs T. and myself.

Put as you have put it, it's a blanket condemnation she would be making to include her own party, the Conservatives.

It is also a total non sequitur.

I did not refer to Socialism; I called for a little sense of social responsibility. Those are two entirely separate and different words, concepts and uses.

[Alan Klein]

Harry H. Soos, Alan, get with the reality!

We, the expats caught up abroad in the Brexit shitstorm, ALWAYS HAVE HAD access to private medical insurance, both abroad as in the UK! I ran it in tandem with my and my wife's entitlement to the local Spanish national health service (a RIGHT granted because it was reciprocated in Britain.) It would still be reciprocated in out foreign country of residence only if we leave with an agreed deal, as would the rights of Europeans still living or working in Britain. It is the nightmare scenario of crashing out with no deal, as the Ultra Blue lot wants to do, that tears up everything for both sides.

I no longer have that private cover because it became too bloody expsnsive for me to afford, exactly as in your own case. 

What in hell is there not to understand? It has been reduced to the most simple of terms anyone can formulate - if you don't get it now you never, ever will.

Rob, First I'm sorry that you have these problems.  Having issues with medical insurance coverage especially as we grow older becomes particularly serious and stressful.  I just had major surgery.  I still haven't seen all the bills and payments that are suppose to be made by Medicare.  I'm worried that all of them won't be picked up.  The surgery was very expensive.  While everything is suppose to be picked up, I signed a waiver in the hospital that says that all cost may not be and I'm responsible.  Sometimes doctors opt out of Medicare and I'll be stuck paying.

A lot of tax money goes for Medicare as I'm sure it does for British national health care.  If that money was left in our pockets, we could better afford private insurance where in your case you wouldn't have to worry about how Brexit influences your coverage.  But that's the problem when the government takes over.  We lose our freedom of choice. 

[Alan Klein]

Is this since you have been on Medicare or before when you were on private insurance?

Both.

[RSL]

And I could share with you 100 anecdotes of superb medical care in Canada. And nobody here files for bankruptcy because they happen to break their leg.

The data and the surveys are out there and freely available. People with good jobs and with a lot of money get good medical care in the US, everyone knows this. But all the data, from repeated surveys and studies, show that the US spends much more on health care with worse outcomes overall and that a sizeable number of US citizens don't have any medical care, that your time off work because of illness tops most other countries, in short your medical system is very polarized. But I also accept that many of you don't care about this, and that's your choice. If you think you're well served, that's all that matters, but stop making pronouncements on what goes on in other countries based on echo chamber memes. The info is out there, all you have to do is read it.

Yes, Robert. I've read the "info." It all comes down to "figures don't lie, but liars figure." Real bottom line: people who need serious medical care come to the U.S. for it. Yes, they have to be able to afford it. That's true inside and outside medicine.

[faberryman]

Both.

I don't get it. You're getting MRIs and CT scans and heart surgeries at the drop of a hat and still castigating the Medicare system as the devil's spawn. You seem to be doing all right by it.

[jeremyrh]

Harry H. Soos, Alan, get with the reality!

We, the expats caught up abroad in the Brexit shitstorm, ALWAYS HAVE HAD access to private medical insurance, both abroad as in the UK! I ran it in tandem with my and my wife's entitlement to the local Spanish national health service (a RIGHT granted because it was reciprocated in Britain.) It would still be reciprocated in out foreign country of residence only if we leave with an agreed deal, as would the rights of Europeans still living or working in Britain. It is the nightmare scenario of crashing out with no deal, as the Ultra Blue lot wants to do, that tears up everything for both sides.

I no longer have that private cover because it became too bloody expsnsive for me to afford, exactly as in your own case. 

What in hell is there not to understand? It has been reduced to the most simple of terms anyone can formulate - if you don't get it now you never, ever will.

Rob - do you ever get the impression you're banging your head on a brick wall? Alan has his drum to beat and he pretends every piece of data, no matter how irrelevant, backs him up. soon he will be pretending that the weather forecast supports his world view. Oh. Hang on. he already does.

[Alan Klein]

Terribly poor attempt at quoting, both Mrs T. and myself.

Put as you have put it, it's a blanket condemnation she would be making to include her own party, the Conservatives.

It is also a total non sequitur.

I did not refer to Socialism; I called for a little sense of social responsibility. Those are two entirely separate and different words, concepts and uses.

I believe as most Americans have in a lot of social responsibility.  My taxes reflect that. Currently, about half, maybe more, of health care filters through the government in one form or another.  Americans also spend about $500 billion on private charity every year.  Plus billions more in welfare, food stamps, shelter and housing, etc. for the poor and needy.    Both federal and state dollars are spent.  Medical care is a problem, I'm not denying it.  But the more government get involved, the more it's going to cost.  We see that with government loans for college tuition.  The cost of college has gone up 4 fold while general inflation has gone up less that 2x.  Whenever the government gets involved it cost more for less.  The government run Veterans Administration is an example.  As a vet I could use the VA medical services that I'm entitled to.  But I never have.  It just isn't very good.  And you wait forever to get any care.

[Alan Klein]

I don't get it. You're getting MRIs and CT scans and heart surgeries at the drop of a hat and still castigating the Medicare system as the devil's spawn. You seem to be doing all right by it.

But I was getting MRI's and CT scans and other better services before Medicare.  Many of the best doctors have opted out of Medicare.  So I can no longer use them because I can't afford to pay them.  Before, these doctors were covered with my private plans. 

[Alan Klein]

Rob - do you ever get the impression you're banging your head on a brick wall? Alan has his drum to beat and he pretends every piece of data, no matter how irrelevant, backs him up. soon he will be pretending that the weather forecast supports his world view. Oh. Hang on. he already does.

Well, climate change is causing the earthquakes in California yesterday and today. 

Well, aren't they? 

[Peter McLennan]

I did not refer to Socialism; I called for a little sense of social responsibility. Those are two entirely separate and different words, concepts and uses.

A common meme these days. Otherwise known as "dog whistle" politics.

Canada is commonly and incorrectly referred to by Americans as "Socialist".

BTW, Alan, in a doctor's office a few years ago the doc decided I needed a CAT scan.  I was in the machine in less than an hour.  This in the Socialist hellhole known as Canada, eh?  And rural Canada at that.  Nearly a thousand kilometers from Vancouver.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... ALWAYS HAVE HAD access to private medical insurance...

Most Democratic presidential candidates are for elimination of private insurance in the US.

[Peter McLennan]

Oh, for f*ck’s sake, ...

This from the person who once chastised me here for using the acronym "OMFG"

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

This from the person who once chastised me here for using the acronym "OMFG"

Peter, in both cases, my reasoning is the same: I am trying to avoid offending our religious forum members by using God's name in vain