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Author Topic: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other  (Read 67590 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #340 on: July 05, 2019, 03:32:23 pm »

Appointees over the past 20 years have been very true to their political leanings.  Roberts is in a unique position as he is the Chief Justice and 'sometimes' thinks he has an obligation to find consensus.  If there was one less liberal jusitce (may happen if Trump is reelected), Roberts would be a reliable conservative vote.  Last Justice who confounded everyone was David Souter and the Republican President(s) will never make that mistake again particularly since the Federalist Society has to vet every single one of the appointees to either the Supreme or other lower Federal courts.  Amazing that we have non-governmental group basically making the decision that is entrusted to the President.
Nothing new about it.  The American Bar Association has always given its imprimatur on the nominees.  Presidents often also check with with non-governmental organizations for recommendations for all types of offices including judgeships. Otherwise, how would they know of the hundreds of judges across the nation that could be appointed to Federal courts during their 4 or 8 years in office?  Obama did the same thing when he nominated liberal judges to the courts.  But of course when Trump does the same, only from a conservative side, he's castigated as "evil".   Just more anti-TRump blather just for the heck of it. 

faberryman

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #341 on: July 05, 2019, 03:34:14 pm »

Obama did the same thing when he nominated liberal judges to the courts.  But of course when Trump does the same, only from a conservative side, he's castigated as "evil".   Just more anti-TRump blather just for the heck of it.
And more anti-Obama blather just for the heck of it.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #342 on: July 05, 2019, 03:37:09 pm »

And more anti-Obama blather just for the heck of it.
Nobody called Obama evil.  However, with Trump, the left and Democrats call him evil, a Nazi, a fascist, for just doing what every president has done.

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #343 on: July 05, 2019, 03:39:50 pm »

Courts are the government.

Not really. Montesquieu formulated the idea of separation of powers, with three branches of the State: judiciary, legislature and executive. You in America maintain that tripartite separation; your executive and legislature are involved in the appointment of at least some of the judiciary, but once appointed your judges are wholly independent.

We in the UK have a system which coheres rather less to Montesquieu's idea. Our judiciary is independent, judges being appointed by a quango called the Judicial Appointments Commission. The executive, however, is drawn almost in its entirety from the legislature and sits once appointed as part of the legislature. Until a few years ago, the members of the highest court in the country, the Appellate Committee of the House of Lords, were automatically made members of the upper chamber because in theory the appeal lay to the entire House. Tony Blair removed their right to be members of the House, creating a separate new court which is called the Supreme Court*. He addressed a theoretical source of conflict, without addressing the rather more real mixture of executive and legislature. The powers of the UKSC are rather more limited than those of your SC, because the underlying tenet of the British Constitution places emphasis on the legislature: "The Queen, in Parliament, is supreme".

Jeremy

*We already had one, in fact: the Supreme Court of Judicature of England and Wales had been created in 1875, but history was never one of Tony's strong points.
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faberryman

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #344 on: July 05, 2019, 03:40:23 pm »

Nobody called Obama evil.  However, with Trump, the left and Democrats call him evil, a Nazi, a fascist, for just doing what every president has done.
Nobody? Or am I being pedantic again? And you being hyperbolic?
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RSL

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #345 on: July 05, 2019, 03:46:07 pm »

Hi Russ,

No, God is not part of the three branches of government in my Country. We DO run a democracy.

Although the thread is about the differences between Republicans and Democrats, I'd be happy to explain a different approach that seems to be working fine for many centuries already. The main difference is that we use a system of weighted cooptation instead of the nomination  of 1 person by 1 (politically colored) President.

The Supreme Court of the Netherlands, in consultation with the Procurator General, first draws up a list of recommendations for six persons. Three persons are nominated by the (our version of a) House of Representatives of the States General, from which the government must make a choice.  Finally, like the other members of the judiciary, the members of the Supreme Court are appointed by royal decree.

Since our government is a result of a popular vote system, that leads to (not 2 but) many (i.e. currently 13 !) different parties weighing in based on equal representation of the population's desires (1 woman/man 1 vote). Also, virtually every citizen age 18 or above can cast an anonimous vote (no need to register) to elect members of the House of Representatives. The turnout percentage of the latest elections was 81.9% of the eligible voters. The political affiliation of Judges does not play a role (it's usually unknown), because Judges are impartial and bound to upholding the law as it's written.

Because throughout the process all parties have a (popular weighted) voice in influencing the different stages, even when narrowing down on the final 3 candidates from which the (popularly weighted) government (24 persons) makes a choice, it is as much depoliticized as humanly possible, while doing justice to the will of the people.

Cheers,
Bart

Hi Bart,

What you just described is a thoroughly political process. How do the people voting find out about the people for whom they're voting? Your House of Representatives (or equivalent) chooses three people. That's about as political a process as you could invent. Then there's a vote. Again, a political process. Yes, parties don't enter into the process, but the word has to go out about the people upon whom the vote will be cast. I'd guess that a large part of this word is the history of the actions of the people up for election. In the end, politics reigns supreme, just as it does in our system and in every system.

Look at the confirmation of Clarence Thomas. The Senate was majority Democrat. The majority leader was Robert Byrd, a deep south guy who'd been a leader in the KKK. Thomas is black. Thomas won with the support of 41 Republicans and 11 Democrats, while 46 Democrats and 2 Republicans voted to reject his nomination. If the vote had been purely party-oriented, as you assume, Thomas would have lost hands down.

Bottom line, our system works well. One reason is that the Senate isn't elected by nationwide popular vote. If you want a real look at how it all works, read the novel, Advise and Consent by Alan Drury.

I think your system probably works well for a country as small as the Netherlands. For the United States it would never work.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #346 on: July 05, 2019, 03:48:50 pm »

Nobody? Or am I being pedantic again? And you being hyperbolic?
Yes you're being pedantic again.  Sure there were people who didn't like President Obama.  But the constant din of nasty adjectives flung at  Trump never ends and is deeply insulting to the Office of the President and those who support him.  Frankly, it may help him in time for the 2020 election if independents think that he got an unfair press and the economy is still good and we're not at war.

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #347 on: July 05, 2019, 04:01:06 pm »

From the article:  [size=78%]"Against his parents’ wishes, the hospital where he was receiving care withdrew life support; his parents were barred by British courts from seeking care for Alfie elsewhere."[/size]


Also, "Ultimately, however, the Evans case was about who gets to decide what the best interest of a child really is. When the view of the state and the view of a child’s parents are at odds, who gets to have the final say? The answer ties into wider questions — about medical ethics and what it means for a life to be “not worth living,” and about popular trust, or lack thereof, in the UK’s National Health Service, a paradigmatic example of both the pros and cons of socialized medicine. The question at stake in the Alfie Evans story, in other words, isn’t just should we let the state decide? It’s do we trust the state at all?"

I favor trying to keep government out of these decisions. We don;t turn our kids over to the government.   Certainly the article showed there's a lot of support for this point of view from millions of people across the globe.  Certainly, you have a right to disagree and have your point of view.  But I would not call your view "...utterly misinformed, ...propaganda...ignorant..."  Nor would I demand an apology from you.   This case certainly has plenty of room for reason to believe one way or the other without you calling people names.

How are you ignorant and ill-informed? Let me count the ways.

First, some facts.

1. Alfie had a severe degenerative brain disease. CT/MR scanning had demonstrated extensive destruction of his brain, both cerebrum and cerebellum, and its replacement in his skull with fluid.
2. He also had intractable epilepsy, near-continuous seizure activity being demonstrated on electroencephalography.
3. There was some evidence that he was in pain.
4. He was unresponsive to his surroundings; apparent responses to touch represented induced seizures.
5. While the diagnosis was not established, its dramatically destructive and irreversible effects were beyond doubt.
6. The "state" did not intervene in his care.
7. The doctors involved in his care formed the view that continued supportive therapy was unjustified, futile and, given some evidence of pain, harmful.

The hospital Trust therefore applied to the High Court for a declaration that withdrawal of treatment would be in Alfie's best interests and therefore legal. The application, of a kind not infrequently made, was opposed by the parents and therefore came to a hearing, at which Alfie's interests were represented by Counsel instructed for that purpose; his parents appeared and so did the Trust. The case was heard by Mr Justice Hayden, an extremely experienced High Court Judge.* His careful and detailed judgment can be read here. Although listed I think for two days, the hearing lasted for seven because of the Judge's attempts to ensure that the parents were given every assistance. He granted the declaration sought.

The parents appealed to the Court of Appeal; the appeal was dismissed for reasons given here. The Supreme Court declined to hear their further appeal.

They applied to the European Court of Human Rights, which held that there had been no breach.

There were several subsequent hearings, concerned in part with the plan for withdrawal of treatment. Links to those decisions can be found here.

There was no intervention by the State. There was a difference of opinion between medical staff, supported by a wealth of objective evidence, and the parents who, understandably, were reluctant to accept the inevitable. Where such difference arises, it must be adjudicated upon.

It is an obvious nonsense to suggest that in such circumstances the parents are or can or should be the sole arbiters of the child's welfare. The child is not the plaything of his parents; he is an individual. It is equally nonsensical to suggest that even if they are capable of reaching a conclusion as to his best interests, all parents will act in accordance with those interests. The issue was not whether the life was worth living; it was whether there was in reality a life at all.

If you knew any of that, you hid it well. That is why my adjectives are appropriate.

Jeremy

* disclosure: I know Sir Anthony Hayden well; we were in Chambers together for several years and he was Head of my previous Chambers while I was a tenant.

(I have not had time to proof-read this, the longest post I have yet made here. Errors are, of course, mine.)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #348 on: July 05, 2019, 04:01:11 pm »

Nobody? Or am I being pedantic again?

Yes. And annoying.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #349 on: July 05, 2019, 04:04:16 pm »

Jeremy, in spite of the long post, you remain fundamentally wrong.

Peter McLennan

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #350 on: July 05, 2019, 04:04:31 pm »

But the constant din of nasty adjectives flung at  Trump never ends and is deeply insulting to the Office of the President and those who support him.

Nobody in recent political memory is more guilty of flinging nasty adjectives than Trump. 
That's much of the reason why he's viewed with such disrespect globally. 
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faberryman

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #351 on: July 05, 2019, 04:06:47 pm »

How are you ignorant and ill-informed? Let me count the ways.
Be careful. You risk being annoying to Slobodan.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2019, 04:10:20 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #352 on: July 05, 2019, 04:13:15 pm »

How are you ignorant and ill-informed? Let me count the ways.

First, some facts.

1. Alfie had a severe degenerative brain disease. CT/MR scanning had demonstrated extensive destruction of his brain, both cerebrum and cerebellum, and its replacement in his skull with fluid.
2. He also had intractable epilepsy, near-continuous seizure activity being demonstrated on electroencephalography.
3. There was some evidence that he was in pain.
4. He was unresponsive to his surroundings; apparent responses to touch represented induced seizures.
5. While the diagnosis was not established, its dramatically destructive and irreversible effects were beyond doubt.
6. The "state" did not intervene in his care.
7. The doctors involved in his care formed the view that continued supportive therapy was unjustified, futile and, given some evidence of pain, harmful.

The hospital Trust therefore applied to the High Court for a declaration that withdrawal of treatment would be in Alfie's best interests and therefore legal. The application, of a kind not infrequently made, was opposed by the parents and therefore came to a hearing, at which Alfie's interests were represented by Counsel instructed for that purpose; his parents appeared and so did the Trust. The case was heard by Mr Justice Hayden, an extremely experienced High Court Judge.* His careful and detailed judgment can be read here. Although listed I think for two days, the hearing lasted for seven because of the Judge's attempts to ensure that the parents were given every assistance. He granted the declaration sought.

The parents appealed to the Court of Appeal; the appeal was dismissed for reasons given here. The Supreme Court declined to hear their further appeal.

They applied to the European Court of Human Rights, which held that there had been no breach.

There were several subsequent hearings, concerned in part with the plan for withdrawal of treatment. Links to those decisions can be found here.

There was no intervention by the State. There was a difference of opinion between medical staff, supported by a wealth of objective evidence, and the parents who, understandably, were reluctant to accept the inevitable. Where such difference arises, it must be adjudicated upon.

It is an obvious nonsense to suggest that in such circumstances the parents are or can or should be the sole arbiters of the child's welfare. The child is not the plaything of his parents; he is an individual. It is equally nonsensical to suggest that even if they are capable of reaching a conclusion as to his best interests, all parents will act in accordance with those interests. The issue was not whether the life was worth living; it was whether there was in reality a life at all.

If you knew any of that, you hid it well. That is why my adjectives are appropriate.

Jeremy

* disclosure: I know Sir Anthony Hayden well; we were in Chambers together for several years and he was Head of my previous Chambers while I was a tenant.

(I have not had time to proof-read this, the longest post I have yet made here. Errors are, of course, mine.)

The individual case is not the question.  Rather, it's who gets to decide generally as presented in the article that I quote again here:
 

"Ultimately, however, the Evans case was about who gets to decide what the best interest of a child really is. When the view of the state and the view of a child’s parents are at odds, who gets to have the final say? The answer ties into wider questions — about medical ethics and what it means for a life to be “not worth living,” and about popular trust, or lack thereof, in the UK’s National Health Service, a paradigmatic example of both the pros and cons of socialized medicine. The question at stake in the Alfie Evans story, in other words, isn’t just should we let the state decide? It’s do we trust the state at all?"


I take the same view as the article.  So, are you saying that it's writer and all those in the world that believe the same thing are ignorant and ill-informed?  I think on reflection, you might reconsider your views.  Certainly, you don't have to agree with our viewpoint.  But your stance doesn;t have to include insults to those of opposing views. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #353 on: July 05, 2019, 04:24:59 pm »

Nobody in recent political memory is more guilty of flinging nasty adjectives than Trump. 
That's much of the reason why he's viewed with such disrespect globally. 
I agree that Trump is often wrong in his use of adjectives, yes even personal insults.  I wish he would stop.  However, the press should rise above it and not be pulled into lowering itself to similar banter because of their leanings.  Their position is to remain objective in their reportage.   Once they start calling everything he does "fascist", "unconstitutional", etc., they have entered the political arena and their news is no longer news.  They're becoming a political opponent.

faberryman

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #354 on: July 05, 2019, 04:28:41 pm »

I agree that Trump is often wrong in his use of adjectives, yes even personal insults.  I wish he would stop.  However, the press should rise above it and not be pulled into lowering itself to similar banter because of their leanings.  Their position is to remain objective in their reportage.   Once they start calling everything he does "fascist", "unconstitutional", etc., they have entered the political arena and their news is no longer news.  They're becoming a political opponent.
Does that mean Fox News is objective, or have they become Trump's political proponent.
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faberryman

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #355 on: July 05, 2019, 04:35:05 pm »

The individual case is not the question. 
The problem is, general principals are always applied to individual cases. It is how we evaluate general principals.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #356 on: July 05, 2019, 04:36:10 pm »

The individual case is not the question.  Rather, it's who gets to decide generally as presented in the article that I quote again here:
 

"Ultimately, however, the Evans case was about who gets to decide what the best interest of a child really is. When the view of the state and the view of a child’s parents are at odds, who gets to have the final say? The answer ties into wider questions — about medical ethics and what it means for a life to be “not worth living,” and about popular trust, or lack thereof, in the UK’s National Health Service, a paradigmatic example of both the pros and cons of socialized medicine. The question at stake in the Alfie Evans story, in other words, isn’t just should we let the state decide? It’s do we trust the state at all?"


I take the same view as the article.  So, are you saying that it's writer and all those in the world that believe the same thing are ignorant and ill-informed?  I think on reflection, you might reconsider your views.  Certainly, you don't have to agree with our viewpoint.  But your stance doesn;t have to include insults to those of opposing views.

Alan - please explain what this case has to do with the NHS and how it would have come out differently had the child been treated at a private hospital.

On second thoughts, please don't  - I've read enough of your nonsense for one night. Or, indeed, for a lifetime.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #357 on: July 05, 2019, 04:49:08 pm »

Does that mean Fox News is objective, or have they become Trump's political proponent.
Most cable news is politically biased whether on the left or right although Fox really has two outlets.  There's their "talking heads" cable that favors conservative views like MSNBC and CNN favors liberal news.  Then there's Fox News that while is slightly right-center, presents both sides of most issues in a more balanced view.

However, the media I'm referring to are the news outlets that presents themselves as just providing the news.  Like NBC, CBS, ABC, The Washington Post, The NY Times.  Meanwhile they're biased as heck and often insulting to the president. As the detective used to say on the TV show "Dragnet", "just the facts, maam, just the facts." That's something they forgot how to do. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #358 on: July 05, 2019, 04:55:03 pm »

Alan - please explain what this case has to do with the NHS and how it would have come out differently had the child been treated at a private hospital.

On second thoughts, please don't  - I've read enough of your nonsense for one night. Or, indeed, for a lifetime.
OK.  I won't add anything.  Now get a good night's sleep.  It seems like your need it. 

faberryman

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Re: Republicans and democrats don't understand each other
« Reply #359 on: July 05, 2019, 04:58:06 pm »

Then there's Fox News that while is slightly right-center, presents both sides of most issues in a more balanced view.
I am not familiar with that aspect of Fox News. When I turn on Fox News morning or evening, I just hear the talking heads. Fox and friends in the morning, Hannity et al in the evening. Perhaps I listen at the wrong times.

Is what you described also the case with CNN, MSNBC, etc. where at certain times of the day they are slightly left center but present both sides of most issues in a more balanced view, or are they all left all the time?
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