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Author Topic: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?  (Read 2610 times)

spassig

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Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« on: June 09, 2019, 05:27:42 am »

Hey

I shoot lot of pictures in Tuscany some weeks ago.
I use PO XF with IQ3.
I learn using the system.
A very small group of pictures don't have sharpness.
Example in screenshot.
I use a tripoid.
I use delay max 4 sec after shutter release.
I dont know the autofocus distance. The value isn't in EXIF.
Normally I use autofocus and when the autofocus is OK (house) I switch lens to manually and move to the crop.
Can I analyse the RAW to find out the cause of the RAW blur?
I want to improve my work to minimize the committee. :)

Jochen
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 05:35:30 am by spassig »
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #1 on: June 09, 2019, 10:47:43 am »

Can I analyse the RAW to find out the cause of the RAW blur?

Hi Jochen,

Only if the blur has a very distinct character, it might become clear what caused it.

In this case, it could be a combination of factors.

When I try to improve the results in postprocessing (using Topaz Sharpen AI), I can achieve the most recovery with a combination of Stabilization and defocus Blur correction. So it looks like some (mostly horizontal) vibration was involved, and some defocus. In addition, the narrowish aperture added some diffraction blur. The Diffraction Blur you can correct with the built-in Capture One Diffraction correction.

I don't know if any wind was involved during the exposure time, to cause some vibration in the tripod setup.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 02:19:01 pm by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #2 on: June 09, 2019, 12:49:47 pm »

Some years ago, Popular Photography magazine ran a test of shutter speeds and vibration. Turns out, your chosen shutter speed falls into the range that is most susceptible to vibrations, even when on tripod.

spassig

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #3 on: June 09, 2019, 02:04:23 pm »

Some years ago, Popular Photography magazine ran a test of shutter speeds and vibration. Turns out, your chosen shutter speed falls into the range that is most susceptible to vibrations, even when on tripod.

Thanks.
If so than I will carry out some own tests.
Did you know which Magazin?

Jochen
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #4 on: June 09, 2019, 02:21:03 pm »

... Did you know which Magazin?

No, sorry, it was years ago.

Their conclusion was, and I am speaking from memory, that the range between 1s and 1/15s is the most susceptible to vibrations from mirror slap, shutter bounce, or outside causes. Faster that that would freeze the movement, and slower than that would allow enough time for camera to stabilize.

But, as you said, it is best to conduct your own tests, with your specific camera.

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #5 on: June 09, 2019, 02:46:13 pm »

No, sorry, it was years ago.

Their conclusion was, and I am speaking from memory, that the range between 1s and 1/15s is the most susceptible to vibrations from mirror slap, shutter bounce, or outside causes. Faster that that would freeze the movement, and slower than that would allow enough time for camera to stabilize.

But, as you said, it is best to conduct your own tests, with your specific camera.

I seem to remember that the original Sony A7 had this problem at just these shutter speeds.
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Balafre

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #6 on: June 09, 2019, 05:36:10 pm »

Shake means lack of stability. I use the same system as you, and outside a studio every step of the system is fraught with shake! Are you locking up your mirror as part of the 4s delay? The tripod/head system is crucial - it should have more inertia than your camera, don't succumb to convenience because you'll pay for it with lost shots; likewise the head too needs to provide real down-force not just be a symbol of notional stability. If windy, try and stand where you can block it. You'll fix it - it all comes down to physics.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #7 on: June 09, 2019, 07:56:50 pm »

Why not use the electronic shutter function with the mirror up if the subject doesn't more too much?

Regardless, all images should be captured with the mirror permanently up, using live view. With leaf shutter lenses this should cause zero issues.

At least I am not facing any sharpness problems in the field with y H6D-100c with the aforementioned technique, a good series 2 RRS tripod and lenses up to 210mm f4.

Cheers,
Bernard

ben730

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 04:55:25 am »

It looks for me as the house is primarily not in focus.
Did you use the focus trim function to adjust every lens in your XF?
(https://captureintegration.com/xf-focus-trim/)

Against vibration I use mirror up and the "Vibration Delay"
with the seismograph in my XF and a heavy tripod.

Regards,
Ben



spassig

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #9 on: June 10, 2019, 05:45:49 am »

@all
Thanks for feedback with recommendations and hints.
I will take into consider in future.

Jochen
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #10 on: June 10, 2019, 08:28:22 am »

Looks like defocus (misfocus) rather than shake. Shake generally has more effect on one axis, such that tall-thin detail is sharp (because there is very little left-right vibration) and wide-short detail is soft (because of the vertical angle change from vibration).

The advice you got about focus trimming is good advice, but in this case the part of your post where you said "A very small group of pictures don't have sharpness" leads me to believe the issue was not trimming.

I would suggest using the XF's Hyperfocal Focus Tool (tuned to your own standards) for shots like this. It will eliminate the need to focus at all, and decrease the likelihood of mis-focus to near zero.

The advice you're getting for camera shake is good general-purpose photographic advice. However, since you're sporting an XF with an IQ3 100mp it's not terribly relevant. Simply turn on XF's vibration mode (setting the max delay to infinity) and switch to using the IQ3's sensor-based electronic shutter. This will make it nearly impossible to get any vibration in the image. It's the absolute best anti-vibration workflow I've ever seen.

The Phase One dealer from whom you purchased can walk you through the Hyperforcal Focus Tool, the Vibration Delay mode, the Sensor-Based ES as well as various in-camera focus checking. It's literally their job to make sure you're getting the most out of this hot rod kit! :)

tcdeveau

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #11 on: June 10, 2019, 04:47:37 pm »

OP, could you clarify what you mean when you say you switch to manual and move to the crop?  Are you using a zoom, and then zooming in after you autofocus?
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spassig

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #12 on: June 10, 2019, 05:37:59 pm »

OP, could you clarify what you mean when you say you switch to manual and move to the crop?  Are you using a zoom, and then zooming in after you autofocus?

I don‘t use a zoom.
The AF focus field is in the middle of the „sensor“.
I use the AF to the house.
Then I switch on the 150mm lens from autofocus to manualfocus.
Then I move the camera slightly right and slightly up.
I fix all connections (I hope so).
I press the trigger.

Jochen
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #13 on: June 10, 2019, 05:58:54 pm »

...I use the AF to the house.
Then I switch on the 150mm lens from autofocus to manualfocus.
Then I move the camera slightly right and slightly up. ...

If I understood correctly, you are using autofocus and recomposing. You are not doing any additional manual-focus corrections, right?

If so, that might explain the results that "a very small group of pictures don't have sharpness. Autofocus is not absolutely precise, but has a range of acceptable sharpness instead. 

I do not know your camera, but most modern cameras with live view have a manual-focus magnifying feature. That is the best way to focus precisely.

BobShaw

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #14 on: June 10, 2019, 07:05:10 pm »

It really does not look like anything is sharp, so it may not be just focus.
Big cameras need solid tripods as mentioned.
Also mirror up and cable or timed release also as mentioned.
> "Normally I use autofocus and when the autofocus is OK (house) I switch lens to manually and move to the crop."
Explain how you focussed again.
Autofocus is sometimes guess focus.
Focus and then recompose does not work. It is mathematically impossible. Read up on "True Focus" as used by Hasselblad.
Focus and then zoom does not work on most zooms.

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spassig

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2019, 02:58:55 am »

Focus and then recompose does not work. It is mathematically impossible.

The distance between house and camera is approximativ 800 m.
See screenshot 1.
The calculation depth of field say from very near until infinite.
See screenshot 2.

Why can I not change recompose after autofocus by fix lens distance?

Jochen
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2019, 03:11:48 am »

Focus and then recompose does not work. It is mathematically impossible. Read up on "True Focus" as used by Hasselblad.
Focus and then zoom does not work on most zooms.

Bob, the XF also has a dedicated mode for this called AFr (same idea as True Focus).

But it's 100% irrelevant to the OP's question. He's using a wide angle on a far away subject. The geometry difference (that AFr or True Focus address) is completely negligible here.

If I had to guess, the OP was following [AF mode >>> focus on subject >> switch to MF >> recompose >> capture] throughout the shoot without issues, but on this specific sequence of images he forgot the [switch to MF] step and so the XF tried (and failed) to refocus on the sky, resulting in several out of focus images.

If this theory is correct, it highlights that the default settings are not great for the workflow he is using. I would suggest changing the workflow (as explained in my previous post, for example, to use hyperfocus mode), but if this workflow is what he prefers I'd suggest a minor tweak: switch the XF UI to remove autofocus from the shutter release and add it to the rear button. This "AF on demand" tweak would remove the need to switch between AF and MF mode on the lens, which would also eliminate the chance that lens focus changes during that switch.

Again, I'd direct you to your P1 dealer. I would rather have expected they would have walked you through these powerful and practical features  of the XF (and the many many many others) during your pre-purchase evaluations or your post-purchase training session, but if not, they can do so now.

ben730

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2019, 04:56:00 pm »


Jochen
I think AF is not a good tool to make landscape photographs with a tripod. Why don't you use live view to nail manually focus?
It's a fast workflow with your camera. 
With the vibration delay of the XF you will be almost 100% sure to make the picture you want.
I use Af only for handhold work.
Regards,
Ben

BobShaw

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2019, 08:24:35 pm »

He's using a wide angle on a far away subject. The geometry difference (that AFr or True Focus address) is completely negligible here.
I did not actually realise until he shared it that he is actually 800m from the house. A wide angle lens at 800m? Why? With that magnification (and possibly heat haze) it is probably as good as it gets. The slightest vibration would kill it.
And raw is raw. Normally processing should improve it.

Is the Afr automatically applied? On the Hassy you actually have to enable it and know how to use it.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Can I find out the cause of the RAW blur?
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2019, 08:57:29 pm »

... A wide angle lens at 800m? Why?

It was a 150mm lens, a medium telephoto (93mm equivalent).
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