Counting down...

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Citing a city bombed to rubble by British and American air forces as a problem caused by communism seems a bit desperate.

Oh, for God's sake, the bombing was in 1945. 40 years to do something about it. Or you can compare West Berlin and East Berlin.

[degrub]

Hallelujah

So, the Vietnam disaster was (in part) a consequence of US interference in Cuba.

Nope.
Vietnam, for the US,  started with our "helping" the French. That goes back to Eisenhower/Nixon at least. Kennedy was persuaded to increase our "advising" , and then Johnson...well,,, finally down to Nixon to bail out.

[degrub]

Citing a city bombed to rubble by British and American air forces as a problem caused by communism seems a bit desperate.

His point was that the Russians kept punishing the Germans in territory they controlled after the war - minimal rebuilding, support beyond  peasant life.
and in Cuba - similar result.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Have any of you lovers of socialism actually ever been in a socialist country?

[imagetone]

Oh, for God's sake, the bombing was in 1945. 40 years to do something about it. Or you can compare West Berlin and East Berlin.

40 years?

London still had bombsites in the sixties.

I think I’d want to know a lot more of all the economic and political factors before judging the pace of reconstruction and reaching simplistic conclusions.

His point was that the Russians kept punishing the Germans in territory they controlled after the war - minimal rebuilding, support beyond  peasant life.
and in Cuba - similar result.

Actually that’s your point and isn’t expressed in Les’s post. But if you were right, would that say something about communism or the Russian post-war mentality (with 20-30 million casualties and its economy and infrastructure devastated)?

I responded because it seemed unfortunate to use the example of a beautiful city whose controversial destruction in firestorm bombing by Britain and America with the loss of tens of thousands of lives seems to me a much bigger tragedy than its subsequent slow reconstruction.

[LesPalenik]

LesPalenik on Today at 11:10:53 am
In late sixties, I visited Dresden in East Germany and was shocked by all the ruins and collapsed buildings. Destroyed during the war, and being restored at a very slow pace under communism. 
5 years ago, I visited Cuba for the first time and was shocked again witnessing ruins and collapsed buildings. This time not from the war, but again due to communism.

Quote by imagetone
>>> Citing a city bombed to rubble by British and American air forces as a problem caused by communism seems a bit desperate.

What is desperate and incomprehensible that some idealists are still painting communists as saints. As Slobodan commented, it might be quite illuminating for the lovers of communism to make a trip to Cuba, and some impoverished parts of Eastern Europe which are still trying to recover from all the damage caused by USSR and their lackeys.

What I said, was that when I visited East Germany 20 years after the war, the communists still were not able to remove the rubble and repair the buildings. Actually, the main reconstruction didn't start until the early nineties and the re-unification of Germany. Not financed by a communist party or Russia, but by the parties and companies from the  former West Germany.

In Cuba, the dilapidation of the buildings was not caused by war, just by neglect, poor planning and shoddy maintenance (coincidentally also by communists).

Interestingly, on my recent visit to central Europe, I stopped in a medium-sized town in southern Slovakia, where on the main square the KSS party (Communist party of Slovakia) was recruiting new members. These were primarily men in their sixties and seventies who must have been members and beneficiaries of the said party before the Velvet revolution in 1989. They didn't seem to be very effective in their recruitment efforts, but the best thing was that they were being assisted by a young DJ, who was playing in that square good American hits from the sixties and seventies, which were pretty much forbidden during the communist era. It was unnerving, yet memorable to observe them in action, but of course, those decadent capitalist tunes were the main attraction.
 

[Rob C]

What is desperate and incomprehensible that some idealists are still painting communists as saints. As Slobodan commented, it might be quite illuminating for the lovers of communism to make a trip to Cuba, and some impoverished parts of Eastern Europe which are still trying to recover from all the damage caused by USSR and their lackeys.

What I said, was that when I visited East Germany 20 years after the war, the communists still were not able to remove the rubble and repair the buildings. Actually, the main reconstruction didn't start until the early nineties and the re-unification of Germany. Not financed by a communist party or Russia, but by the parties and companies from the  former West Germany.

In Cuba, the dilapidation of the buildings was not caused by war, just by neglect, poor planning and shoddy maintenance (coincidentally also by communists).

Interestingly, on my recent visit to central Europe, I stopped in a medium-sized town in southern Slovakia, where on the main square the KSS party (Communist party of Slovakia) was recruiting new members. These were primarily men in their sixties and seventies who must have been members and beneficiaries of the said party before the Velvet revolution in 1989. They didn't seem to be very effective in their recruitment efforts, but the best thing was that they were being assisted by a young DJ, who was playing in that square good American hits from the sixties and seventies, which were pretty much forbidden during the communist era. It was unnerving, yet memorable to observe them in action, but of course, those decadent capitalist tunes were the main attraction.
 

I don't think I've read any of that here!

What I do read is the suggstion that, one system or the other, the poor pretty much always remain poor and the rich inevitably get richer.

Social mobility is perhaps the most difficult step for mankind, far more difficult than any one made on the Moon, which just took dedicated cash. I have never met one, afaik, but even a major lottery winner will probably not achieve it: he may buy some expensive toys and property, but his background will forever exclude him from the next upwards echelon of society. You simply can't buy class, which comes with old money. That bold, old money may not stop one being a shit, but still a classy shit, proving all shits are not equal, as all gastroenterologists will confirm.

Ah, the music! It powered flower power and the student revolts, making zillionaires out of the writers and labels.

Rob

[jeremyrh]

The problem with these debates is that they tend to overlook the reasons why revolutions happen in the first place.

Bingo.

[jeremyrh]

Have any of you lovers of socialism actually ever been in a socialist country?

Yep. A country with roads and schools and hospitals. All typical socialist stuff.

Any of you lovers of no government actually lived in a country with no government?

[jeremyrh]

simplistic conclusions.

Without simplistic conclusions the folks around here would have no conclusions at all - be grateful !!

[jeremyrh]

What is desperate and incomprehensible that some idealists are still painting communists as saints. As Slobodan commented, it might be quite illuminating for the lovers of communism to make a trip to Cuba,

You seem to be quite confused. Nobody is painting anybody as a saint. Some people are painting others as devils, but that is par for the course. The only difference in the current thread is that the devils wear fatigue caps and not hijabs. As for trips to Cuba - what makes you think that people have not been there?

[LesPalenik]

As with many journeys today, some travellers are open-eyed and trying to learn about the country by moving around and talking to locals, while many others are quite content to stay just in their five-star hotel with its own beach and restaurant. Especially in Cuba.


 

[jeremyrh]

As with many journeys today, some travellers are open-eyed and trying to learn about the country by moving around and talking to locals, while many others are quite content to stay just in their five-star hotel with its own beach and restaurant. Especially in Cuba.

And your point is?  Some travellers travel to a communist country, see dilapidated buildings, and conclude that dilapidation is an inevitable result of a political system.  Are their conclusions more valid than those of the beach-dwellers?

[Rob C]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CHiUN8XTWs

;-)

Rob

[LesPalenik]

And your point is?  Some travellers travel to a communist country, see dilapidated buildings, and conclude that dilapidation is an inevitable result of a political system.  Are their conclusions more valid than those of the beach-dwellers?

Many of the beach bums never see the dilapidated buildings. After their hard work on the beach and in the bar they can't or won't walk on the streets. And Cuban officials like it that way.
And that's end of this discussion for me. I have to start working on another article - unrelated to socialism or communism.

[LesPalenik]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CHiUN8XTWs

;-)

Rob

That's my kind of memorable link.

[jeremyrh]

Many of the beach bums never see the dilapidated buildings. After their hard work on the beach and in the bar they can't or won't walk on the streets. And Cuban officials like it that way.

FWIW the people I've spoken to who have been on beach holidays to Cuba have been disappointed. Those who went more off the beaten track had a great time.  What Cuban officials like, I have no idea, and I suspect neither do you.

[Rob C]

FWIW the people I've spoken to who have been on beach holidays to Cuba have been disappointed. Those who went more off the beaten track had a great time.  What Cuban officials like, I have no idea, and I suspect neither do you.

No, from experience of holiday people, the officials are probably happy to have them off-street as much as possible; side-stepping pavement pizza in the mornings is no fun, not a patch on the smell of napalm, but it would be a fib to pretend I'm au fait with the latter.

:-)

[LesPalenik]

FWIW the people I've spoken to who have been on beach holidays to Cuba have been disappointed. Those who went more off the beaten track had a great time.  What Cuban officials like, I have no idea, and I suspect neither do you.

OK, one last comment. The British and European travellers may be indeed different from the typical tourists in Cuba.
From my personal observations, majority of Cuban visitors come from Canada and Russia. Not only recently, but for many years. And many of those repeat customers go there just for the beach, and all-inclusive meals and drinks. Some for the women. They like these activities and the Cuban government obliges.
The flight from Toronto to Havana or Varadero takes only 3 hours and the vacation packages are relatively inexpensive, especially for Canadians. As a matter of fact, you can book a one week vacation in Cuba for less than in Canadian Rockies or on the East Coast.

Personally, I liked Cuban beaches and the clean ocean, and also wandering the streets in Havana and in the small towns. The food is OK, beer and mojitos too, but abstain from the locally made wine. 

To promote the tourism, Cuban government built quite a few international airports in the vicinity of the major tourists centers to supply the resorts with a steady stream of visitors. Here is a list of Cuban international airports:

 Havana airport (code: HAV)
 Varadero airport (code: VRA)
 Holguin airport (code: HOG)
 Santa Clara airport (code: SNU)
 Cayo Coco airport (code: CCC)
 Cayo Largo airport (code: CYO)
 Camaguey airport (code: CMW)
 Cienfuegos airport (code: CFG)
 Santiago de Cuba airport (code: SCU)
 Manzanillo de Cuba airport (code: MZO)

 Just in Varadero, there are over 70 hotels and resorts, plus many small private casa particulares.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

The problem with these debates is that they tend to overlook the reasons why revolutions happen in the first place...

Because a bunch of crazy people got violent.