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Author Topic: A Printer we can live with... What individual photographers need  (Read 1281 times)

Dan Wells

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As camera sensors increase in resolution, printing big is the only way to show what we're doing, especially in disciplines like landscape where detail makes the image. In addition to a wall-space expander (and I have no idea how to make one of those 😊 ), that means we need big printers suited to the needs of individual photographers, instead of graphic-arts shops. Right now, even a 24" printer is a beast beyond what many individuals are willing to buy and make room for, and a 44" is worse, at the size of an upright piano.

There is no reason a 24" printer even has to be a stand-mounted device - HP made a dye ink model (was it the DesignJet 130?) that weighed under 60 lbs and was a large desktop machine. I can't see how a 44" printer could work without the stand, but it could be a slender device designed to roll into a corner (the Z3200 is a lot less obtrusive than a Canon or Epson, and an even smaller machine should be possible).

Most individual photographers don't need the speed or volume capabilities of any of today's mainstream printers - and could really live without Epson's clogging if you don't print all the time. I run 160ml cartridges in my Canon Pro-2000, and they're plenty big enough for my needs - the space they provide to install the 700 ml cartridges just makes the printer bigger than it needs to be.  The Z3200 was pretty close - smallish for its carriage width, slow, excellent image quality, relatively small cartridges and easy to deal with heads (blow a head and you can replace it for $70).

If I were to design an ideal printer for fine-art photo use by an individual photographer (maybe taking a few print-for-pay jobs from photographers they know, but not primarily a print shop), it would be something like this:

Maximum possible print quality - it might even be a 14-ink machine (start with Canon's current 12 inks, then add Epson's green and an extra grey - OR start with Epson's 11 and add Canon's blue, an extra grey and a chroma optimizer - very similar, since Canon's red is close to Epson's orange).

Cartridges in the 90-160 ml range - no need to take up the space for giant cartridges.

No need for high-speed output or the massive build it requires - 24" should be under 100 lbs and at least arguably possible to use without the stand, 44" should be under 200 lbs and roll nicely into a corner. It doesn't matter if it's as slow as a Z3200, and it probably doesn't matter if it's half that speed.

Well-designed, easy to load roll feeder and cutter. No need for dual-roll capability.

Sheet feed tray (in addition to the single roll feeder). The sheet tray should accommodate up to 20 sheets of 13x19" art paper, possibly 17x25" as well (it doesn't need to be the full carriage width - most big prints are from rolls).  The old DesignJet 130 actually had a 100 sheet tray at 17x22" (20 sheets for art paper), and it was the smallest and lightest 24" printer I've seen. Bonus points if the tray also accommodates 100 sheets of 8.5x11" plain paper - if this is for individual photographers,  it would be nice not to have an extra printer around for printing plane tickets and invoices.

Optional photographer-oriented built-in profiling. Probably too expensive to be standard, but would be an excellent option.

Designed to be used whenever - like a Canon or HP, but unlike an Epson, turn it on and it works even if you last used it a month ago. Designed to be good about not blowing heads if used less frequently.

7 heads for the 14 inks - a blown head is a $70, 5 minute job.

It's kind of a modernized Z3200 (let's call it an HP, but it could also be made by Canon - it's not an Epson because it would require them to abandon their permanent head technology), with some bits of DesignJet 130 DNA, and some pieces of Canon in there as well... How many people would buy one (for essentially the price of a Canon Pro-2000 or Pro-4000). It's a smaller, lighter, less obtrusive machine than the similarly priced Canon,  and the extra inks improve image quality somewhat - better gamut than any current printer. You also get a nice sheet feeder and a spectro option meant for photographers, but you lose speed, the ability to use giant cartridges and the dual-roll option.

How many folks would be interested in one? If not, what would you want?

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chez

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Re: A Printer we can live with... What individual photographers need
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2019, 06:29:08 pm »

As camera sensors increase in resolution, printing big is the only way to show what we're doing, especially in disciplines like landscape where detail makes the image. In addition to a wall-space expander (and I have no idea how to make one of those 😊 ), that means we need big printers suited to the needs of individual photographers, instead of graphic-arts shops. Right now, even a 24" printer is a beast beyond what many individuals are willing to buy and make room for, and a 44" is worse, at the size of an upright piano.

There is no reason a 24" printer even has to be a stand-mounted device - HP made a dye ink model (was it the DesignJet 130?) that weighed under 60 lbs and was a large desktop machine. I can't see how a 44" printer could work without the stand, but it could be a slender device designed to roll into a corner (the Z3200 is a lot less obtrusive than a Canon or Epson, and an even smaller machine should be possible).

Most individual photographers don't need the speed or volume capabilities of any of today's mainstream printers - and could really live without Epson's clogging if you don't print all the time. I run 160ml cartridges in my Canon Pro-2000, and they're plenty big enough for my needs - the space they provide to install the 700 ml cartridges just makes the printer bigger than it needs to be.  The Z3200 was pretty close - smallish for its carriage width, slow, excellent image quality, relatively small cartridges and easy to deal with heads (blow a head and you can replace it for $70).

If I were to design an ideal printer for fine-art photo use by an individual photographer (maybe taking a few print-for-pay jobs from photographers they know, but not primarily a print shop), it would be something like this:

Maximum possible print quality - it might even be a 14-ink machine (start with Canon's current 12 inks, then add Epson's green and an extra grey - OR start with Epson's 11 and add Canon's blue, an extra grey and a chroma optimizer - very similar, since Canon's red is close to Epson's orange).

Cartridges in the 90-160 ml range - no need to take up the space for giant cartridges.

No need for high-speed output or the massive build it requires - 24" should be under 100 lbs and at least arguably possible to use without the stand, 44" should be under 200 lbs and roll nicely into a corner. It doesn't matter if it's as slow as a Z3200, and it probably doesn't matter if it's half that speed.

Well-designed, easy to load roll feeder and cutter. No need for dual-roll capability.

Sheet feed tray (in addition to the single roll feeder). The sheet tray should accommodate up to 20 sheets of 13x19" art paper, possibly 17x25" as well (it doesn't need to be the full carriage width - most big prints are from rolls).  The old DesignJet 130 actually had a 100 sheet tray at 17x22" (20 sheets for art paper), and it was the smallest and lightest 24" printer I've seen. Bonus points if the tray also accommodates 100 sheets of 8.5x11" plain paper - if this is for individual photographers,  it would be nice not to have an extra printer around for printing plane tickets and invoices.

Optional photographer-oriented built-in profiling. Probably too expensive to be standard, but would be an excellent option.

Designed to be used whenever - like a Canon or HP, but unlike an Epson, turn it on and it works even if you last used it a month ago. Designed to be good about not blowing heads if used less frequently.

7 heads for the 14 inks - a blown head is a $70, 5 minute job.

It's kind of a modernized Z3200 (let's call it an HP, but it could also be made by Canon - it's not an Epson because it would require them to abandon their permanent head technology), with some bits of DesignJet 130 DNA, and some pieces of Canon in there as well... How many people would buy one (for essentially the price of a Canon Pro-2000 or Pro-4000). It's a smaller, lighter, less obtrusive machine than the similarly priced Canon,  and the extra inks improve image quality somewhat - better gamut than any current printer. You also get a nice sheet feeder and a spectro option meant for photographers, but you lose speed, the ability to use giant cartridges and the dual-roll option.

How many folks would be interested in one? If not, what would you want?

Nice to dream. How big is the fine art photo printing market? There lies your answer.
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hollywoodstills

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Re: A Printer we can live with... What individual photographers need
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2019, 11:55:50 am »

Dan!  Well, there's the development roadmap -- As to the marketplace, I constantly use a large format printer (canon) to proof prints before I send them to printer for even larger printer.  And the 44" is a beast of a footprint, and loading and unloading is insane.  Good ideas....hope they catch on  J
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stockjock

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Re: A Printer we can live with... What individual photographers need
« Reply #3 on: June 01, 2019, 01:37:36 pm »

As long as we are wishing for the impossible, I would love to see a 24 or 36" wide version of the Canon Pro-100 with larger more economical ink tanks.  100 year ink life, no clogging, no gloss differential, adequate print gamut and presumably quite a bit cheaper than Canon's other pigment based printers.  I would buy one just to use it with the Hi-Gloss White Film substrates to get as close to Ilfochrome/Cibachrome as possible.
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rdonson

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Re: A Printer we can live with... What individual photographers need
« Reply #4 on: June 01, 2019, 02:22:53 pm »

Honestly, I'm no longer interested in large printers or a gazillion ink colors in the printers.  As a former HP Z3100 owner I'm living quite happy with my Epson SC P800 these days.  Contrary to some people's thoughts I rarely have to clean the nozzles.  I rarely need more than a 17"x25" print or and when I do I send it off to a friend in CA to print.

The only real value I see to large printers is for the "decor" market.  That seems mostly for the "what do I put over my sofa" crowd and commercial installations.  Maybe a gallery with wall space they don't know how to fill. 

N.B. I am not a "professional" photographer just a life long enthusiast/amateur

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Regards,
Ron

enduser

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Re: A Printer we can live with... What individual photographers need
« Reply #5 on: June 01, 2019, 09:01:04 pm »

After my CANON ipf 24" self destructed I looked around for a cheaper but usable option. I now use an HP T120 24" roll machine with only four carts, black, cyan, yellow and magenta. I use pigment for all four colors and with HP's latest ink lay-down routines, neutral observers cannot distinguish prints between the old 12 ink Canon and the four ink HP.
It weighs 25KG or 55 pounds, costs less than $1000, print heads  (only one) are less than $100. It's sold as a plotter for architectural drawings and the like, but can do much more. Its B&W capability with only one cartridge is remarkable.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: A Printer we can live with... What individual photographers need
« Reply #6 on: June 03, 2019, 02:50:19 pm »

Sorry to be facetious, but this appeared only last week.

Jeremy
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stockjock

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Re: A Printer we can live with... What individual photographers need
« Reply #7 on: June 03, 2019, 04:09:49 pm »

After my CANON ipf 24" self destructed I looked around for a cheaper but usable option. I now use an HP T120 24" roll machine with only four carts, black, cyan, yellow and magenta. I use pigment for all four colors and with HP's latest ink lay-down routines, neutral observers cannot distinguish prints between the old 12 ink Canon and the four ink HP.
It weighs 25KG or 55 pounds, costs less than $1000, print heads  (only one) are less than $100. It's sold as a plotter for architectural drawings and the like, but can do much more. Its B&W capability with only one cartridge is remarkable.

I guess you switched to third party pigment inks, but before you did that did you ever try printing on any of the high gloss white films with the T120 and the OEM dye inks?

Personally, I find it hard to believe that a 4 ink printer can challenge the 8-12 ink dedicated photo printers.  I can see a difference in gamut between the 8 ink Canon Pro-100 and the 12 ink Canon iPF8400 with custom profiles which ought to have equalized things.  It isn't a huge difference but it is noticeable.

Are there  any other forum users that would give the T120 a ringing endorsement?  The reviews I've read online seem a little mixed.  The printer is on sale now for $600 so it is a very good price if it truly can print high quality photos on roll paper.
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enduser

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Re: A Printer we can live with... What individual photographers need
« Reply #8 on: June 03, 2019, 09:33:10 pm »

Only way to find out is to get a print from somewhere. Make sure you use max detail at 2400  x 1200 on the right paper. I went to pigment for longevity of fade resistance. The OEM dye inks are outstanding for color but pics fade noticeably after about 18 months on inside display.  When printing click on settings and for right paper you get "Max detail" and 2400x1200 dpi.
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rdonson

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Re: A Printer we can live with... What individual photographers need
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2019, 11:55:06 am »

Sorry to be facetious, but this appeared only last week.

Jeremy

Thanks for the laugh! 

Hard to decide which was the funnier piece.  The one on the printer or “How is Trump planning to be a dick in the UK?”
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Regards,
Ron
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