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Author Topic: GFX100  (Read 15041 times)

BernardLanguillier

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #60 on: May 27, 2019, 08:44:32 pm »

Actually I would have been disappointed if Bernard did not play this card!! Anytime he is challenged, the card emerges.

What card is that (if it is the mention of the existence of a Sony gang, your very participation to this thread is confirming beautifully your understanding that you belong to such a gang :) ) and how exactly I am being challenged?

I just see a difference of perception of what is innovation between the porting of existing technologies to a larger sensor vs incremental improvement of multi-shot technology.

I am more willing to accept the fact that Panasonic is innovating, I just find strange the position of HCubell that Fuji isn't or that Hasselblad/P1 get a pass for innovating even less because their are too small.

Let's not forget that 25 years ago Fuji was #2 in the film market (behind Kodak) with a tiny camera/lens activity that paled behind Hasselblad and that had nothing to do with APS-C or digital. Their ability to grow a digital photography business and 3 successful product lines isn't unfair, it is the result of sustained sound business and engineering decisions. Hasselblad could have decided to target more volume markets. They didn't but I don't see why they should be a priori forgiven for their shortcomings as a result or their poor strategic product positioning.

So I feel that the views of HCubell isn't a fair or objective perception of what is happening in the market.

Being very heavily invested in Hasselblad and about to invest in Fuji, I believe that I can be considered as totally objective on this. I am the brand agnostic person here. I have decided to invest my money in Hasselblad because they did deliver a unique value to me, albeit in a manner far from ideal. Fine, I was lucky enough to be able to afford it at that time and it may pay back some day. What is done is done.

In the end, what matters is the value delivered by a camera for photographic applications and while I agree that the S1 delivers great value thanks to its enhanced multi-shot capability, I believe that today the GFX100 delivers by far more value than anything Hasselblad or P1 ever put to the market (and I do understand that others may have a different view). Whether this substantial increase of value is the result of innovation or just happened by chance is in the end of secondary importance.

It doesn't mean I consider Hasselblad products negatively. The X1D is a great camera with sweet lenses. Its compact size is an advantage over the GFX100 and I like its design. But I know that the Fuji will deliver a lot more value for my needs.

I feel that I am being reacted against on the grounds that speaking positively about Fuji means speaking negatively of Hasselbad. This isn't on me folks.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 06:44:59 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #61 on: May 27, 2019, 09:53:03 pm »

My perception is that Fuji really do come up with innovative products that are also useful. If I was looking for a MF solution Fuji would be where I would most likely end up. In fact I keep looking for a way to justify buying one but with the photographic industry the way it is at the moment, and by that I don’t mean that it’s awful, just different, I come up with nothing. Could just be the area of the industry I currently find myself in.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #62 on: May 27, 2019, 10:10:51 pm »

My perception is that Fuji really do come up with innovative products that are also useful. If I was looking for a MF solution Fuji would be where I would most likely end up. In fact I keep looking for a way to justify buying one but with the photographic industry the way it is at the moment, and by that I don’t mean that it’s awful, just different, I come up with nothing. Could just be the area of the industry I currently find myself in.

Fully understandable, I would probably not buy a GFX100 if it had to be a reasonable business decision. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #63 on: May 28, 2019, 12:03:37 am »

---snip
I know that the Fuji will deliver a lot more value for my needs.
---snip

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

I am a great fan of Fuji but ...

You don't *know* what this thing will deliver as value until you've had it for a while - you got one for more than 3 months already?

How about "I believe", or more forthrightly "I hope that" ...

The Hasselblad H6D100 seems to have been another good camera that could have become an even better camera ...

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #64 on: May 28, 2019, 12:21:30 am »

Bernard,

I am a great fan of Fuji but ...

You don't *know* what this thing will deliver as value until you've had it for a while - you got one for more than 3 months already?

How about "I believe", or more forthrightly "I hope that" ...

The Hasselblad H6D100 seems to have been another good camera that could have become an even better camera ...

Well, the H6D-100c now performs as it was intended to and remains IMHO the best option overall for larger MF as a generic camera (meaning used handheld sometime). Even if the IQ4 150 has a significantly better sensor and the XF body some cool bells and ws.

But its potential was severely limited from day 1 in terms of envelope of usage.

The GFX100 has a much higher potential and this is what we are discussing here obviously since the camera hasn't been released yet.

I agree with you that actual usage will be needed to confirm how close to its potential it will deliver.

Whether it makes sense to buy into the system without having had actual feedback from users depends on the need and the degree of confidence in Fuji's ability to deliver.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 01:25:55 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Bo_Dez

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #65 on: May 28, 2019, 04:37:49 am »

At the moment, Sony is supplying most of the innovation for all mirrorless ILC, prepackaged in the form of those sensors.

There's no point in yelling about them, they don't necessarily make the best integrators but they're now the heart of the industry.

As for the GFX 100, it's in reality a hi-resolution GFX-50 upgrade, in two years it will be selling at $6K, and used ones will be trading at $4K, and every studio will have one as Phase and Hassy are giving up on the midrange commercial market. We will see how they price the modular version which will sell to tethered shooters, they've already started showing around the core module mockups, which have an integrated lens mount, so far it's not an exposed-sensor back.

Edmund

"Mid range" — ha. The only thing that will stop Fuji taking over the high end, at least in my segment of the market, is durability which is yet to to be seen. Two bodies for less than the cost of one P1 is an easy fix.

Fuji was once a very high end pro player but the digital revolution changed that, mostly over night. It won't take them long to get it back, maybe it's already happened.

I really do hope that Phase One and Hasselblad can get a leg up because it would be worse for everyone if they went away—I have long been a supported of both of these companies for most of my career. Fuji has been doing this many decades more than Phase One, now they have their product it will be extremely hard to keep up with them.

I keep reading comments how the game hasn't changed, that is absolutely untrue in my humble opinion.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 04:40:51 am by Bo_Dez »
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Bo_Dez

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #66 on: May 28, 2019, 04:56:33 am »

Well, the H6D-100c now performs as it was intended to and remains IMHO the best option overall for larger MF as a generic camera (meaning used handheld sometime). Even if the IQ4 150 has a significantly better sensor and the XF body some cool bells and ws.

But its potential was severely limited from day 1 in terms of envelope of usage.

The GFX100 has a much higher potential and this is what we are discussing here obviously since the camera hasn't been released yet.

I agree with you that actual usage will be needed to confirm how close to its potential it will deliver.

Whether it makes sense to buy into the system without having had actual feedback from users depends on the need and the degree of confidence in Fuji's ability to deliver.

Cheers,
Bernard

I have spent over 20 years using Hasselblad as my main platform, with Phase One since 2000. I started with the V bodies and moved to the H when I got the P65+. I won't bother writing a list of the frustrations and problems I found with both H and P1 AFD, it's far too long. But I have missed a lot of shots with these cameras, and they have caused a great deal of frustration over the years with issues because they have failed and I have spent my fair share of time wanting to throw them at a wall. We had to put up with all these problems because if you wanted a certain kind of quality, that was the only options available. The H has been much better since the H4 but more so the H5, but still, the focus, my god. I mostly use it Manual Focus. I didn't jump in on the H6 because their lack of attention to lens upgrades tells me they are mostly done with the H. The lenses are really showing their strain now on 100MP. I tried the AFD after being told it worked much better with Phase One backs and found that to be wrong. Pig of a thing. I've tried the XF and almost changed over but it's just prohibitively and unnecessarily large in light of current options. Not unnecessary for the camera, but for photography, or at least the kind I do.

The final nail was Phase One doing the dirty on their long time loyal customers by pulling support on Hasselblad H platform. I'm still raw over that, not the way to treat your loyal customers AT ALL.

Fuji is ripe for the picking. They have played and timed it perfectly and their business model puts their customer first. They've got their product—yet to be seen if it's their panacea but it answers almost everything for me so far, at least on paper, and I'm excited to get my hands on it and try it out.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 05:04:28 am by Bo_Dez »
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vjbelle

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #67 on: May 28, 2019, 08:10:30 am »


Fuji is ripe for the picking. They have played and timed it perfectly and their business model puts their customer first. They've got their product—yet to be seen if it's their panacea but it answers almost everything for me so far, at least on paper, and I'm excited to get my hands on it and try it out.

Amen!!

I will never regret buying a 50s and three prime Fuji lenses.  My 3100 is still around but mostly used with my 60XL when I need/want movements at that focal length as I don't have that capability with the Fuji - yet.  So it's the 3100 for wides (35XL, 60XL) and the Fuji 100 for everything else.  The Fuji will marry perfectly with my Actus and Schneider lenses..... these are great photo times.

Victor
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eronald

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #68 on: May 28, 2019, 08:32:39 am »


I agree with you that actual usage will be needed to confirm how close to its potential it will deliver.

Whether it makes sense to buy into the system without having had actual feedback from users depends on the need and the degree of confidence in Fuji's ability to deliver.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

 Would you buy a musical instrument from a catalogue? Why should one buy a camera on spec? Regardless of its specs in the end it's the user experience that matters - otherwise why even think of a Fuji if you already have 35mm and a Hassy?

Edmund
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faberryman

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #69 on: May 28, 2019, 08:47:02 am »

Would you buy a musical instrument from a catalogue? Why should one buy a camera on spec? Regardless of its specs in the end it's the user experience that matters - otherwise why even think of a Fuji if you already have 35mm and a Hassy?

What's the rush? First kid on the block syndrome?
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 11:37:00 am by faberryman »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #70 on: May 28, 2019, 09:06:45 am »

Two questions.

1. Why a GFX100 relative to my existing line up?
- relative to my Nikons: better image quality with limited overhead, probably even better lenses
- relative to the H6D-100c: I look at it as its replacement except for Tech camera use

2. Why now?
I have some shooting opportunities in July that would benefit from the abilities of the GFX100.

Cheers,
Bernard

Joe Towner

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #71 on: May 28, 2019, 12:07:08 pm »

On some other fora i read that Fuji has a problem with constant quality...
Only Lensrentals has the luxury of testing 10 copies of a lens...

This is why you rent from them, and only 'Keeper' it if the one you have is amazing on your camera :)

The thing you have to do with the GFX 100 is put it in a category all it's own.  The BSI, PDAF, IBIS & 5 FPS really do make it a completely different beast.  Is it the right tool for most photographers, no. Does it give me something different & let me capture what I envision, yes.  Will the forums be filled with newbie MF shooters trying to understand why it doesn't shoot like their FF gear, absolutely.

We've completed the Sony Sensor roadmap as it was laid out in 2017 - the question is now what comes next & who is situated to take advantage of it.  Phase with the IQ4 platform and BR lenses are set for anything Sony can put out in 54x40 silicon. Fuji is still ramping up their lens lineup on the 44x33 chips, but this new body will give them plenty to talk about.  I really hate the silence from Hasselblad.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 12:29:08 pm by Joe Towner »
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faberryman

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #72 on: May 28, 2019, 01:57:26 pm »

We've completed the Sony Sensor roadmap as it was laid out in 2017 - the question is now what comes next & who is situated to take advantage of it.  Phase with the IQ4 platform and BR lenses are set for anything Sony can put out in 54x40 silicon. Fuji is still ramping up their lens lineup on the 44x33 chips, but this new body will give them plenty to talk about.  I really hate the silence from Hasselblad.
Fuji carved a 44x33 slice out of the 150MP 54x40 sensor yielding 100MP. Carving a 36x24 slice out of the same sensor yields 60MP. The Sony A7RIV. By the way, an APS-C size sensor would be 29MP, not much of an improvement from the current 26MP sensors.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 07:18:24 pm by faberryman »
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Dan Wells

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #73 on: May 28, 2019, 02:33:05 pm »

Fuji really changed things in the MF market here. Before the GFX 100, there was the "traditional" MF market, dominated by Phase One, but also including Hasselblad H-series and the occasional Leaf (etc.) - body+back, massive entry costs, upgrade programs made ongoing costs somewhat more reasonable. There was also the newer market for integrated cameras, pioneered by Pentax, now dominated by Fuji, with the Hasselblad X being the third competitor.

The integrated cameras have always been MUCH cheaper - $5000-$10,000 instead of $20,000+ and often $40,000+ for a body+back setup. The challenge has been that all of them prior to the GFX100 (and ignoring earlier Pentaxes that used a CCD sensor) have used the same older Sony 50 MP CMOS sensor (from 2014). The old sensor is certainly a good performer, but it isn't quite up to more modern designs, and its lead over much newer 40+ MP FF sensors is questionable. It's essentially of the same generation as a D800 or A7r (original) sensor, and its extra size only goes so far against the generational improvements in smaller sensors.

The body+back cameras, due to their even larger sensor sizes, maintained a comfortable resolution lead over 24x36mm - the Sony CMOS sensor that showed up in "almost 645" backs was not only slightly newer than the ubiquitous 50 MP model, it was (is) also 100 MP. It's still not latest generation technology (early 2016 and not BSI), although it brute-forces a really excellent performance with size and pixel count - but it's meant a $40,000 camera until very recently.

The brand-new 100 MP "small MF" sensor in the GFX against the IQ3/Hasselblad 100 MP sensor will be a very interesting comparison. My suspicion (from previous cases where one Sony sensor is both a size smaller and a generation newer than another) is that it's very close? That's a tricky situation for Phase One, because even a used IQ3 100 is twice the price of the Fuji - and anything that leaves the Fuji comfortably behind (IQ4 150) is four or five times the price of the Fuji.

For most types of images, the Fuji is easier to use (modern AF, IBIS, etc.) There are certainly limited circumstances where the body+back design (or the back alone mounted on a technical camera) is an advantage. How many types of photography are there where the design is enough of an advantage to pay the premium?



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eronald

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #74 on: May 28, 2019, 05:21:50 pm »

I'm going to wait for the pix.
Studio users are still looking for a fast-sync solution, but I guess Hassy has what they need ;)

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #75 on: May 28, 2019, 06:16:09 pm »

I'm going to wait for the pix.
Studio users are still looking for a fast-sync solution, but I guess Hassy has what they need ;)

You may not be aware of this but:
- studio shooters don’t need leaf shutter lenses, the flash is so much brighter than the studio ambiance that the synchro speed of plane shutters is mostly irrelevant
- the people who need quick synch speed are those shooting on location with strobes
- it’s possible to adapt H lenses on the GFX and to use their leaf shutters, so for H users like me all it takes is not selling 2 or 3 H lenses for having a very usable strobe shooting solution... (for me the 50mm II, 100mm f2.2 and 210mm f4 most probably that are anyway my preferred ones)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: May 28, 2019, 06:26:19 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Jim Kasson

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #76 on: May 28, 2019, 10:09:41 pm »

You may not be aware of this but:
- studio shooters don’t need leaf shutter lenses, the flash is so much brighter than the studio ambiance that the synchro speed of plane shutters is mostly irrelevant
- the people who need quick synch speed are those shooting on location with strobes
- it’s possible to adapt H lenses on the GFX and to use their leaf shutters, so for H users like me all it takes is not selling 2 or 3 H lenses for having a very usable strobe shooting solution... (for me the 50mm II, 100mm f2.2 and 210mm f4 most probably that are anyway my preferred ones)

And then there's HSS, which works well with the GFX and Godox strobes. You do throw away a flock of photons, but you're usually going for the short shutter speeds because you want to open the lens up, and efficiency is not the long pole in the tent.

Jim

TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #77 on: May 28, 2019, 10:39:52 pm »

And HSS works with more powerful strobes now too, not just speedlights.  Opens some interesting options.  Also the fact that the latest medium format cameras like the Fuji are actually usable at iso 200, 400, 800 for example means you get a lot more power out of HSS and open apertures.  My p45 is an f/11 iso 50 camera that needs a LOT of light in comparison.  I’ve been really eyeing these new systems but have been on the sideline waiting to see how things pan out in the longer term.  I was about to pull the trigger on the Fuji system but the 100 is far more appealing for all my work.  I want to rent it before making any decisions.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #78 on: May 29, 2019, 01:05:49 am »

You may not be aware of this but:
- studio shooters don’t need leaf shutter lenses, the flash is so much brighter than the studio ambiance that the synchro speed of plane shutters is mostly irrelevant
- the people who need quick synch speed are those shooting on location with strobes
- it’s possible to adapt H lenses on the GFX and to use their leaf shutters, so for H users like me all it takes is not selling 2 or 3 H lenses for having a very usable strobe shooting solution... (for me the 50mm II, 100mm f2.2 and 210mm f4 most probably that are anyway my preferred ones)

Cheers,
Bernard

From experience this is quite true. What has really changed with MF is the ability to shoot at high ISO. It’s not just a matter of low light capability in the traditional 35mm shooter sense. I remember using backs that had best quality at 50iso. You could go to 100iso but there was a quality cost already. Two hundred was useless. You may as well have shifted to the 1DS at that point. I used to run two 4000w packs to drive that back. The ability to go to 400 iso effectively turns a 500w mono head into a 4000w head if you get my drift. That’s not just a cost saving but also a huge saving on bulk of equipment and recycling time. Two 4 k packs and a few smaller lights firing would almost eliminate the need for a fan to blow the models hair back.
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Bo_Dez

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Re: GFX100
« Reply #79 on: May 29, 2019, 08:13:09 am »

Studio photographers don't need fast sync. Location photographers don't necessarily need it either.

Marketing might suggest otherwise though.

It can be certainly be useful though but it's really not a deal breaker.
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