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Author Topic: Looks Like People Still Care!!  (Read 21437 times)

RSL

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #40 on: May 21, 2019, 09:31:06 am »

Please tell me about the military's "spectacular failures" Andrew.
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OmerV

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #41 on: May 21, 2019, 09:37:06 am »

I didn't say anything about charter schools, Omer. Let's back up. I think the government should keep its hands out of education. Period. I'm sure that idea will drive a couple of our posters crazy. But anything the government touches becomes a political toy. It's unavoidable.

Well, I wonder what Besty DeVos, et al. would say?  :D

amolitor

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #42 on: May 21, 2019, 09:40:03 am »

F35, Russ. F35.

Also the inability to keep two carrier task groups fully operational without at least 11 carriers.

The list goes on.
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RSL

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #43 on: May 21, 2019, 09:44:07 am »

In other words your "spectacular failures" are political failures, not military failures.
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RSL

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #44 on: May 21, 2019, 09:44:49 am »

Well, I wonder what Besty DeVos, et al. would say?  :D

Actually, I should have been more specific, Omer. Obviously, local government needs to be involved in the school system. The folks who actually send their kids to school should be the ones making decisions about their schools. Though I think the world of Betsy DeVos, I think her department should be dumped, along with a clutch of other federal departments. The Feds have absolutely no business playing politics with education.
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OmerV

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #45 on: May 21, 2019, 09:48:22 am »

Burden!? No, they are not. They are a normal part of every society.

Well Slobodan, if the "normal" poor weren't, the country would get a windfall of reduced taxes, or much better infrastructure, or maybe even affordable NASA vacations to the moon. Assuming, of course, honest politicians in government.

amolitor

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #46 on: May 21, 2019, 09:49:26 am »

Fun fact, the much lauded Arleigh Burke guided missile cruiser, doesn't really have water tight compartments, so if you knock a hole in it anywhere the damage control officer had a real mess on her hands and the ship basically had to devote 100% of its efforts to remaining on the right side of the water.

Don't get me wrong, there are compartments, and fancy doors that you dog. But then there are ducts and stuff. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so terrible.

Google "fight the ship" and click the propublica link for the whole astounding tale.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #47 on: May 21, 2019, 09:53:32 am »

What “water tight compartments” have to do with this educational debate and the OP!?

amolitor

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #48 on: May 21, 2019, 09:59:28 am »

Anyways, the point is that the actual performance of the US government is a mixed bag. You can say "no! It is all terrible!" but you're just repeating a myth. Examining each department or program one by one, and you find some good, some bad, and a fair bit of stuff in the middle.

The private sector is not some magic bullet. Deregulation is not some magic bullet.
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OmerV

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #49 on: May 21, 2019, 10:01:00 am »

Actually, I should have been more specific, Omer. Obviously, local government needs to be involved in the school system. The folks who actually send their kids to school should be the ones making decisions about their schools. Though I think the world of Betsy DeVos, I think her department should be dumped, along with a clutch of other federal departments. The Feds have absolutely no business playing politics with education.

If you're suggesting a libertarianism approach to things, how would you deal with greed and corruption? I mean, the privatized prison system is becoming infamous as a model of cruelty, corruption and greed.

http://www.justicepolicy.org/news/12006

JoeKitchen

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #50 on: May 21, 2019, 10:08:56 am »

Anyways, the point is that the actual performance of the US government is a mixed bag. You can say "no! It is all terrible!" but you're just repeating a myth. Examining each department or program one by one, and you find some good, some bad, and a fair bit of stuff in the middle.

The private sector is not some magic bullet. Deregulation is not some magic bullet.

But when the private market makes a bad decision, only the investors loose there money.  Not mention all those who screwed up often are left with a job. 

In government, we all loose out, and we get to listen to those who screwed up come say, "if only we had more money, it would have worked." 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 10:22:27 am by JoeKitchen »
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amolitor

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #51 on: May 21, 2019, 10:16:30 am »

So what, Joe? The fact remains the the government is somehow able to do a lot of things pretty well. "Proving" that it can't because: investors! changes nothing.

Also, you have a rather touching notion of how private Enterprise works.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #52 on: May 21, 2019, 10:18:30 am »

So what, Joe? The fact remains the the government is somehow able to do a lot of things pretty well. "Proving" that it can't because: investors! changes nothing.

Also, you have a rather touching notion of how private Enterprise works.

I have asked, and you seem to be ignoring my request, to give me examples of the government doing things "pretty well." 

Please provide examples and evidence otherwise your statements are hallow. 
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amolitor

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #53 on: May 21, 2019, 10:23:51 am »

K12 education, Medicaid, Medicare.

(cue loud tedious misinformed discussion of how terrible these programs actually are, but compare with similar private sector offerings and the truth is painfully clear)
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #54 on: May 21, 2019, 10:29:43 am »

The poor and undereducated are a huge burden to the country. We can ease that burden by making education more attainable....

Ok, without getting entangled in the semantics of burden, let's see your apparent solution. If "more attainable" or free (higher) education is the solution, then countries like India and China, among others, wouldn't have the poor and "undereducated," right? Or even European countries with free education wouldn't have the poor and undereducated.  And yet...

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #55 on: May 21, 2019, 10:33:01 am »

K12 education, Medicaid, Medicare...

K12 is not the federal government. And some local governments are providing really lousy K12 education. In any case, anyone who could afford it would send their kids to private schools.

And generally, private medical insurance, if you can afford it, is superior to the government ones.

amolitor

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #56 on: May 21, 2019, 10:36:08 am »

I am aware of how K12 education is delivered in this country. Probably moreso than most of the participants on Lula.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #57 on: May 21, 2019, 10:46:04 am »

K12 education, Medicaid, Medicare.

(cue loud tedious misinformed discussion of how terrible these programs actually are, but compare with similar private sector offerings and the truth is painfully clear)

Go to any major city in the country and you will find that the K12 education you cite is not doing so well.  (Great example of failure is Baltimore, which spends more per capita then any other city and it has the worse public education system in the country.) 

Additionally, you will find in the majority those cities, most are for school choice and charter schools precisely for these reasons, and that the charter schools are performing better. 

Yes, there are some bad charter schools, but many are doing better. 

Now the reason for this is not necessarily a different product or more money or being more efficient, but because if you care enough to send your child to a charter school, you are obviously more involved in your child's education then those who do not put forth the effort.  This, parental involvement, accounts for over 90% of why a child does well.  This has been studied throughly and proven several times all throughout the world.

Now, would this work with public schools, absolutely, but no politician talks about this.  They only concentrate on getting more funding, which completely ignores the actual solution.  (It is not a surprise of course, because how would one get reelected if he spent his time telling parents how bad of a parent they are being.  It would be political suicide; just look at what happened to Obama when he pointed out black fathers needed to start being real fathers.  Regardless though, this leads to an ignorance on the actual cause of the problem that ultimately prevents the solution from even being discussed let alone implemented.) 

This is why the major cities never actually fix their education system. 

Now you could ask why do we not have charter schools in rural and suburban areas and why do the K12 programs work better there?  Because, if you live a rural area, there typically is not a market for more then one school, so the more involved parents send there child to the only school available, and this helps skew ups the results.  For suburbs, the cost of living tends to be more, lending to higher incomes, and higher income people tend to be more involved in their child's eduction.  Also, many suburbs are also spread out over a larger geography that makes the market for charter schools slim.  This essentially creates just one choice as well.  In the suburbs where it can work, the incomes tend to be high enough that the cost of a private education is not prohibitive for enough to make the private school model work, thus canceling out the market for charter schools even more. 

I will let Russ answer the Medicaid and Medicare part since he knows more about medicine then I do. 

PS.  You could look at this and point out that since the difference is parental involvement, and if you are an involved parent, sending your child to the public option would result in the same outcome.  The actuality of this proposal is debatable; I would argue that a lower performing school tends to be more violent and distracting, which takes away from the level of eduction.  However, how people perceive the quality of the education gained from a better performing school is going to be higher then that same exact education from a lesser performing school.  This would effect the future options one would be given from those who look at these things, such as employers and college admissions boards. 
« Last Edit: May 21, 2019, 11:06:27 am by JoeKitchen »
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RSL

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #58 on: May 21, 2019, 10:59:12 am »

The private sector is not some magic bullet. Deregulation is not some magic bullet.

How would we know that, Andrew? There hasn't been a genuine "private sector" in the U.S. at least since F.D.R. On the other hand, we can look at the history of Henry Ford back when there actually was a private sector and see that it really was a "magic bullet." Same thing with deregulation. How could we judge? There hasn't been any for a long, long time.
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OmerV

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Re: Looks Like People Still Care!!
« Reply #59 on: May 21, 2019, 11:26:59 am »

Ok, without getting entangled in the semantics of burden, let's see your apparent solution. If "more attainable" or free (higher) education is the solution, then countries like India and China, among others, wouldn't have the poor and "undereducated," right? Or even European countries with free education wouldn't have the poor and undereducated.  And yet...

India and China, two countries that are just beginning to be able to sustain a higher standard of living?

I won’t pretend that easily available education is a panacea for poverty, but other than inheritance what else can propel someone out of being poor? But I do believe poverty is not a goal of most people. Are there poor people who are happy, of course, but not because they consider themselves to be lucky by their poverty.

We all know that a good work ethic is important, but normalizing poverty is in effect the creation of an indentured caste class for the convenience of, and in service to those not in poverty. I guess to those who believe in their lucky predestination, an affordable education that at least offers options is to be frowned upon.
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