Neat Image - Anyone using it?

[Garnick]

Hello all,

As I was looking through some older links I came across one for Neat Image, a product I was looking at a few years ago.  I'm thinking I might download a demo and see what it can do.  I don't know if it might offer any degree of competition for some of the AI apps available now, but it does seem that it will do its work without having to upgrade the GPU.  I have both Topaz Sharpen AI and DeNoise AI but I haven't yet had time to try them, and of course they both require the GPU upgrade, something I'll probably put off until I need it for the Mohave OS upgrade.

Gary 

   

[Mark D Segal]

Excellent software; offers a multitude of controls and when properly used cleans up noise with minimal impairment of image detail.

[Garnick]

Excellent software; offers a multitude of controls and when properly used cleans up noise with minimal impairment of image detail.

Thanks for that Mark, much appreciated.  I hadn't seen any reference to Neat Image on the site for quite a while and just can across it again while deleting some old app links.  Visited their site again and digested more info than I had previously.  I assume you have used NI so I do have a couple of further questions if you don't mind.  Do you normally use the PS Plugin or the Standalone version, or perhaps both?  Also, does NI require a GPU Upgrade?  I'm running a MacPro 2012 with the ATI Radeon HD 5770 GPU.  I had to replace the GPU last year due the old one dying a fast death.  However, I have contemplated a GPU upgrade from OWC, which I will need if and when I upgrade to Mohave, and of course for some of the Topaz AI apps. 

Gary   

[albytastic]

Hello all,

As I was looking through some older links I came across one for Neat Image, a product I was looking at a few years ago.  I'm thinking I might download a demo and see what it can do.  I don't know if it might offer any degree of competition for some of the AI apps available now, but it does seem that it will do its work without having to upgrade the GPU.  I have both Topaz Sharpen AI and DeNoise AI but I haven't yet had time to try them, and of course they both require the GPU upgrade, something I'll probably put off until I need it for the Mohave OS upgrade.

Gary 

 

I've used this software for many years and, until JPEG to RAW came along was my #1 choice for NR.

But now, since Topaz seem to have totally destroyed that program, Neat Image will be used again.

I use the standalone version and there is no need to upgrade your GPU.

The main thing you must do with it is prepare correct profiles for every ISO on the cameras you are using.

I can usually get a quality rating for my profiles of 98 upwards which gives the best results.

The one good thing about Neat Image is the capability to batch process hundreds of images in one go.

It can also use all the CPU cores you have on your machine if you let it - there is a provision in the options menu to set the number of cores used.

I actually use it inside a VM with 6 cores set and it runs quite fast there but years ago on a slower machine I would simply set it running overnight.

It does have a huge number of adjustments you can use to set up depending on the results you want.

And of course the size of your images does make a difference in processing times.

[Mark D Segal]

Thanks for that Mark, much appreciated.  I hadn't seen any reference to Neat Image on the site for quite a while and just can across it again while deleting some old app links.  Visited their site again and digested more info than I had previously.  I assume you have used NI so I do have a couple of further questions if you don't mind.  Do you normally use the PS Plugin or the Standalone version, or perhaps both?  Also, does NI require a GPU Upgrade?  I'm running a MacPro 2012 with the ATI Radeon HD 5770 GPU.  I had to replace the GPU last year due the old one dying a fast death.  However, I have contemplated a GPU upgrade from OWC, which I will need if and when I upgrade to Mohave, and of course for some of the Topaz AI apps. 

Gary   

I use it within Photoshop on a bespoke duplicate image layer. Gives me control, flexibility and can be easily trashed if need be. Your computer should be fine.

[Garnick]

I use it within Photoshop on a bespoke duplicate image layer. Gives me control, flexibility and can be easily trashed if need be. Your computer should be fine.

Thanks again Mark and albytastic,

I generally use such apps through PS as well when possible, and the flexibility/edit-ability of layers is a big factor.  Can it be used with a Smart Object as some PS Plugins can?  I use SO's often, but of course it only takes a few seconds to determine if a SO is capable of housing the NI Plugin.  I rather doubt that, since for the most part a SO can only use certain "Filters", but not necessarily a Plugin.  I shall see.  Also, good news about the GPU situation, since I wasn't contemplating upgrading that until absolutely necessary.

Gary

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Excellent software; offers a multitude of controls and when properly used cleans up noise with minimal impairment of image detail.

+1

It's an excellent product, but for the best results, you may need to tweak a number of settings. It helps to make a specific profile for a certain type of film or sensor at different ISOs. That will do most of the work of setting the various parameters in one click. Some images do not allow to extract a good profile from the image content, so having a specific profile you can use will help in that case.

I occasionally use the Plug-in version, and that also works fine in other Photoshop plugin aware applications, like e.g. Affinity Photo.

Cheers,
Bart

[Garnick]

+1

It's an excellent product, but for the best results, you may need to tweak a number of settings. It helps to make a specific profile for a certain type of film or sensor at different ISOs. That will do most of the work of setting the various parameters in one click. Some images do not allow to extract a good profile from the image content, so having a specific profile you can use will help in that case.

I occasionally use the Plug-in version, and that also works fine in other Photoshop plugin aware applications, like e.g. Affinity Photo.

Cheers,
Bart

Thank you for that Bart.  In my exploration of their site I read a bit about creating ISO Profiles, so that is something I'll do once I have the app installed and running as expected.  I sent an inquiry to their "Support" department with all of the information they would need to let me know if the app would work properly on my setup.  I received a very inclusive reply that boiled down to their opinion that it should work very well.  It did mention that the app wouldn't use the somewhat ancient GPU in my MacPro 2012, but it would work with the CPU quite well, albeit perhaps a bit slow.  I am planning to upgrade the GPU soon so that should mitigate the speed "issue" I believe.  They also advised to download the demo version just to make sure the plugin will work in PS-CS6, my preferred version.  I believe we have that in common.

EDIT:  I'll be in touch sometime soon re Affinity Photo.  I have the app but there are a few things I cannot get around so I'll have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.  I assume you have tried it as well.  If no please advise.

Thanks again Bart, much appreciated.

Gary   

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

[...]
They also advised to download the demo version just to make sure the plugin will work in PS-CS6, my preferred version.  I believe we have that in common.

Yes, I also use CS6 and NeatImage as a Plugin (not as a standalone application). I think that the demo will run as expected, but there is only one way of making sure. With newer hardware, it becomes only more likely that things keep running, only faster.

EDIT:  I'll be in touch sometime soon re Affinity Photo.  I have the app but there are a few things I cannot get around so I'll have a couple of questions for you if you don't mind.  I assume you have tried it as well.  If no please advise.

No problem (if time permits), but let's do it in a publicly accessible thread so that others can benefit from the exchange and I do not have to repeat my reactions in PMs from different people. Affinity Photo (AP) deserves more attention than it's getting on LuLa.

Besides, there may be other folks who know a bit about AP, or use an alternative approach to address certain challenges. Their forums are also a good source of information, and they have a huge number of excellent short video tutorials. They also have an open attitude to Customer Beta versions of the upcoming release version, anyone with a license can also activate the Beta version and try out the new stuff, and provide feedback until they release it as a formal version update.

Cheers,
Bart

[Garnick]

Yes, I also use CS6 and NeatImage as a Plugin (not as a standalone application). I think that the demo will run as expected, but there is only one way of making sure. With newer hardware, it becomes only more likely that things keep running, only faster.

No problem (if time permits), but let's do it in a publicly accessible thread so that others can benefit from the exchange and I do not have to repeat my reactions in PMs from different people. Affinity Photo (AP) deserves more attention than it's getting on LuLa.

Besides, there may be other folks who know a bit about AP, or use an alternative approach to address certain challenges. Their forums are also a good source of information, and they have a huge number of excellent short video tutorials. They also have an open attitude to Customer Beta versions of the upcoming release version, anyone with a license can also activate the Beta version and try out the new stuff, and provide feedback until they release it as a formal version update.

Cheers,
Bart

Oh Yes, of course any discussion re Affinity Photo would take place here on LuLa.  I've had little time to really explore AP, but once I finish a (at this point 15 month) book project for my high school history teacher from many many years ago, I'm sure I'll be ready to get back to AP again.  All of the construction of the book is done in PS and has been a very intensive and time consuming project.  Something that I doubt I would take on again, although I've learned a lot about how to organize and set up such a job.

I assume you use the Pro version of Neat Image, is that correct?

Gary

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

[...]
I assume you use the Pro version of Neat Image, is that correct?

Correct, version 8.4.0 as of this writing (which is 30% faster than the previous version, after optimization with the current hardware/drivers setup).

Cheers,
Bart

[billbane]

Bart,

It would be wonderful if you could discuss your usage patterns and approach with Affinity Photo. I have used Affinity Designer for a book project and I have been very impressed with Designer's fit and finish, especially vs Adobe's product. Pricing dramatically favors all the Affinity products!!!

I have toyed with Affinity Photo, but not really dug in. I use most of the bells and whistles of Photoshop CC, so I have a crack problem there that I worry about a lot. Essentially, I have no trust in Adobe and their stock options hungry executives. I fully expect them to continue to screw photographers. Looking to the future, for PS functionality, I am hoping that AP might be one of the answers.

As a first question, since you know all the interesting Photoshop/LR plugins from Topaz, Luminar, etc, could you list what plug-ins you have found to work with AP?

I find on the web ca 2017 discussions for using NIC as a plug in. More recently I find comments by Topaz: "Serif's Affinity Photo editor is ONLY supported in Topaz Studio & In Studio products (Clarity in Studio, Detail in Studio, Impression in Studio, etc.).  Note: Classic products that have not been updated to In Studio versions are not supported (InFocus, Lens Effects, ReStyle, etc.)"

A second question is how well do your plugins work in Ap? Exactly like PS, or better/worse?

On the negative side, while the parent seems big and robust, the slim set of published documentation (and books on Amazon) makes one worry if there is a long term commitment here.

Bill

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

As a first question, since you know all the interesting Photoshop/LR plugins from Topaz, Luminar, etc, could you list what plug-ins you have found to work with AP?

Hi Bill,

The Plugins that I use most are Topaz Clarity and Topaz Detail, and until recently FocusMagic, and less frequently NeatImage. But other plugins also work the same as in Photoshop. You can install the older generation of Topaz plugins, and also Topaz Studio as a Plug-in manager. I have not yet encountered a plugin that could not be run, but I do not (re-)test all of them all of the time.

I find on the web ca 2017 discussions for using NIC as a plug in. More recently I find comments by Topaz: "Serif's Affinity Photo editor is ONLY supported in Topaz Studio & In Studio products (Clarity in Studio, Detail in Studio, Impression in Studio, etc.).  Note: Classic products that have not been updated to In Studio versions are not supported (InFocus, Lens Effects, ReStyle, etc.)"

I don't understand those comments. Classic and Studio versions of the plugins can be installed. The former by individually adding their location to the Affinity Photo Plugin manager, and one can also access those plugins through the Studio plugin manager itself, and the latter plugins have to be invoked from within the Studio plugin itself.

A second question is how well do your plugins work in Ap? Exactly like PS, or better/worse?

Basically the same, one selects a layer, starts a plugin, and when the plugin is finished the layer is adjusted.

On the negative side, while the parent seems big and robust, the slim set of published documentation (and books on Amazon) makes one worry if there is a long term commitment here.

Not so strange, Adobe has several decades of a headstart, and thus creates a larger market to write a book for. One could also counter the difference with: apparently, Photoshop needs a lot more explanation

But in reality, the need for books can be compensated for with modern means, video tutorials, and a good user interface. This is not something that one can condense to a sign of commitment. Besides, Adobe's commitment is mostly to their finances, and Photoshop is just one of their many money makers.

Cheers,
Bart

[kirkt]

A quick list of Neat Image features that I use and value:

1) Profiles - as others have said, you can create profiles for your camera for each ISO, using a calibration target downloadable from the NI website.  Although NI is good at extracting noise profiles from individual images prior to reducing noise on them, using this calibration image will give NI the most data to work with when constructing a camera-specific, ISO-specific profile.

2) Actions in PS - NI can be set up to batch process using Actions in PS.  This is really helpful when you have a batch of images that need NR and you have a PS-centric workflow.

3) Performance - NI has continued to increase its performance as computers and GPUs have become faster and more capable.  You can test your system with NI's tools and it will suggest optimal settings for you.

4) Control - NI gives you direct access to the noise frequency and channel data and has useful tools for visualizing and assessing where the noise in your image needs to be addressed.  Then you can use the corresponding controls in NI to target that specific problematic noise, without using the sledgehammer approach to treating all noise.

It would be cool if you could feed NI a TIFF with an alpha channel that would give it a noise reduction map - white equals full NR, black equals no NR.  This is the kind of thing that you can email Vlad, the developer - he will actually respond.

Kirk

[Mark D Segal]

Yes indeed, "Vlad's the Man"!

(Excellent support)

[billbane]

Bart,

Maybe off topic, but if one uses --concurrently -- PS, LR, AP, and then open Topaz studio and then use Topaz Studio to open Impressions, etc, that is a hell of a lot of memory chewing apps that are open.

I am gearing up for a  new computer build this fall, likely the new AMD threadripper, and even now AMD has lots of core choices (with and without hyper).

Do you have any idea how topaz and AP respond to more Cores?

Puget has done tests on PS and LR and say performance maxes out at 5/6 cores. I have emailed them that the real use test, especially for the next years, is this concurrent PS, LR, AP, Topaz app situation. I am expecting that more than 5/6 cores are beneficial.

The other side of the coin is obviously memory. Right now with my 4777K intel with 32Gigs, if I simultaneously open all of those apps, everything slows down a lot and often PS and/or LR crash. The main reason that I am likely to go threadripper is I am feeling that I do not want a ceiling of 64TB of Ram, but may even start with 128.

Do you have an opinion about memory usage/needs with PS, LR, AP, Topaz, etc?

In addition, the converse is not only avoiding slowdowns, but also speed ups. With my current system a round trip of LR to PS to AP/Topaz, and back to LR can take quite some time. With the approach I use, I do not see much opportunity to use actions/automation.

Thanks,

Bill

[Garnick]

Well this has been a very valuable exploration of Neat Image here at LuLa.  And I cannot say enough about the folks at Neat Image for helping me get the information I needed to finally make my decision to purchase Neat Image Pro.  I had a little snag with the installation but they answered my most important question and all is well.  NI is nestled in nicely in PS-CS6 and is working as advertised.  Of course I still have some work to do with creating some profiles etc., as well as learning how the app works and all of the most important settings. 

You're quite right Mark D., Vlad is indeed "The Man".   

Thank you all for your information, not to say that I'm leaving.  Quite the opposite, I have some learning to do and I'm sure LuLa will accommodate that need as usual.

Gary

[albytastic]

Well this has been a very valuable exploration of Neat Image here at LuLa.  And I cannot say enough about the folks at Neat Image for helping me get the information I needed to finally make my decision to purchase Neat Image Pro.  I had a little snag with the installation but they answered my most important question and all is well.  NI is nestled in nicely in PS-CS6 and is working as advertised.  Of course I still have some work to do with creating some profiles etc., as well as learning how the app works and all of the most important settings. 

You're quite right Mark D., Vlad is indeed "The Man".   

Thank you all for your information, not to say that I'm leaving.  Quite the opposite, I have some learning to do and I'm sure LuLa will accommodate that need as usual.

Gary

Creating good profiles is probably the most important thing you can do to get best results.

I have created profiles for all my cameras at ALL ISOs (even 100 ISO).

The reason is that you can then batch process hundreds (if you wish!) of photos of varying ISOs without the program stumbling.

And as I said before you should aim to get profiles of 98+ for the very best results.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Maybe off topic, but if one uses --concurrently -- PS, LR, AP, and then open Topaz studio and then use Topaz Studio to open Impressions, etc, that is a hell of a lot of memory chewing apps that are open.

Yes, the cascading does seem to use a lot of memory, but part of the speed increase of the newer Studio dependent plugins comes from Studio trying to process as much by using the computer's GPU. Also, one can use multiple plugins in concert while in the Studio environment, and optionally save all the work on that layer as a project-file (which can be later worked on some more while running Studio as Editor). Also, it is efficient to stay in the Studio environment without having to go in or out to activate different plugins.

I am gearing up for a  new computer build this fall, likely the new AMD threadripper, and even now AMD has lots of core choices (with and without hyper).

Do you have any idea how topaz and AP respond to more Cores?

I only have experience with Windows 10, and that seems to use the available resources reasonably well. But on Macs it seems to be limited to some 5/6 cores.

A plugin like Neatimage allows to test the system and determine which number of cores produces the highest speed. It used to be 5 cores on my machine, but since the latest update NeatImage recommends 8 cores, and allows to switch them on for processing.

That's a nifty NeatImage feature, a built-in benchmark that compares the different combinations of CPU cores and a CPU / GPU mix and allows to pick the best settings.

Do you have an opinion about memory usage/needs with PS, LR, AP, Topaz, etc?

Only in general terms, having more memory is better, usually.
I only spend time thinking about memory use when I can influence it, and take it as a given if I can't.

Cheers,
Bart

[MichaelEzra]

I have no issues running any of that software (multiple at the same time) on i7 3930K CPU, 64GB RAM, Nvidia 1060 6GB GPU, Win10x64 with images 36-200 Megapixels.