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Author Topic: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special  (Read 4898 times)

SrMi

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2019, 11:05:17 am »

Actual full rez, unprocessed raw files from each camera viewed in Adobe Camera Raw measure exactly the same:
  8368 x 5584

We're getting a bit pedantic here so I'm leaving it at this.

Peace.

Adobe Camera Raw applies built-in profiles automatically, which includes cropping to 8368 x 5584. The real raw size of Q2 files is 8424 x 5632 and S1R files are 8448 x 5632 (according to RawDigger).
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faberryman

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2019, 11:08:46 am »

Adobe Camera Raw applies built-in profiles automatically, which includes cropping to 8368 x 5584. The real raw size of Q2 files is 8424 x 5632 and S1R files are 8448 x 5632 (according to RawDigger).
So do you conclude that the sensors are from different manufacturers, or different sensors from the same manufacturer, or the same sensor with different implementation?
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SrMi

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2019, 11:44:32 am »

So do you conclude that the sensors are from different manufacturers, or different sensors from the same manufacturer, or the same sensor with different implementation?

Because of the difference in PDR and sensor sizes, my only conclusion would be that the sensors are different. S1R's sensor has aspherical microlenses and may have been tuned to provide better compatibility with M lenses. Q2's sensor may not have that and may have been tuned to Q2's lens. I doubt that either of the cameras uses Sony sensors.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2019, 07:17:30 pm »

Interestingly, the S1R 's DR performance is a virtual twin of the Nikon Z7 (well within the measurement error I'd expect from two samples of the same camera at most ISOs). It's also very close to the Sony A7r III.

That would suggest that it's a version of the ubiquitous Sony sensor, rather than the (TowerJazz?) sensor in the Leica...
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Ghaag

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2019, 10:34:45 am »

Photons to Photos has dynamic range charts out for the new sensor in the S1R and Q2... It underperforms the current best on the market (A7rIII/Z7/D850) significantly. It performs more like a Canon 5Ds R at low ISO, and worse as ISO rises. The Q2 interpretation of the sensor has a base ISO of 50, which offers more DR (although it's still close to a stop behind the Sony sensors) - current specifications suggest that the S1R won't support that (50 will be an extended ISO, which generally reduce DR). All of these cameras are within a small enough resolution range that a straight-out DR comparison is pretty fair, if not perfect.

Why are Canon bothering with their own sensors, and why are Panasonic/Leica bothering with TowerJazz (or whomever that sensor turns out to be made by)? Sony is more than happy to sell their class-leading sensors to anyone who wants one... Nikon even gets custom versions, which suggests that Canon could too, while Panasonic/Leica volume might be small enough that they can only get off the shelf models.

I haven't seen anything to suggest that these cameras are going to have really special image quality in some other way (fantastic color???)... The video specs are good, but not mind-blowing - offering very little that a Z7 or an A7r III can't do. I personally see only niche use cases (adapters for Leica lenses?) where an S1R makes sense over a Nikon or a Sony.

I saw an initial production number for the S1R in the hundreds per month in some interview somewhere (the Z7 is 10,000/month, and the Sony has to be at least that many). If that number is true, Panasonic knows they have an extreme niche product (why bother?).

Dan,
I am in the market for a mirrorless camera, and when I look at the chart on Photons to Photos I am not seeing this dramatic difference you are referring to, could you help me understand.
Thanks,
Greg
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Dan Wells

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As I mentioned in the post directly above yours, it turns out that the Leica Q2 and Panasonic S1R do not use the same sensor! I was not the only person who assumed that they did, due to their nearly identical pixel counts, and Panasonic and Leica's close partnership.

Looking at Photons to Photos data for the S1R, it is an excellent performer - a near-twin of the Nikon Z7 (with the dual gain in a slightly different place). I shoot the Z7 myself, and I can say that it has truly excellent dynamic range - the lab numbers match my field experience with it. The Q2, on the other hand, is a mediocre performer (by these rarefied standards) - it has the lowest DR of anything in the 40-50 MP class, and the difference at critical low ISOs is over a stop. Here is a Photons to Photos chart showing the S1R, Z7 and Q2.

My only hypothesis at this point is that Panasonic chose not to use the sensor from their partnership from Leica and TowerJazz. The pixel dimensions are actually close enough to the Z7's that the S1R sensor could even be a variant of the Z7/D850 sensor (the S1R gets about another 100 pixels on the long axis, and 70 on the short axis, but that could be Panasonic using a few more pixels on the edge of the sensor that Nikon reserves for non-imaging purposes). The curves look close enough to be variants on the same sensor!

There is now a great deal of speculation that the lower-resolution Panasonic S1 (unexpectedly) uses the most recent version of the standard Sony 24 MP sensor. It, too was thought to use a proprietary sensor - but here it is on Photons to Photos looking just like a Z6, and a lot like an A7III..

They both look an awful lot like standard (excellent) Sony sensors, possibly of the Nikon subspecies... It's very rare to see unrelated sensors look that similar. If you like the Panasonic's big body and other features, they'll image just like a modern Nikon or Sony, which is the best on the market right now!
« Last Edit: April 26, 2019, 04:16:58 pm by Dan Wells »
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faberryman

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They both look an awful lot like standard (excellent) Sony sensors, possibly of the Nikon subspecies... It's very rare to see unrelated sensors look that similar. If you like the Panasonic's big body and other features, they'll image just like a modern Nikon or Sony, which is the best on the market right now!
With similar sensors, is it just down to ergonomics?
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Ghaag

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As I mentioned in the post directly above yours, it turns out that the Leica Q2 and Panasonic S1R do not use the same sensor! I was not the only person who assumed that they did, due to their nearly identical pixel counts, and Panasonic and Leica's close partnership.

Looking at Photons to Photos data for the S1R, it is an excellent performer - a near-twin of the Nikon Z7 (with the dual gain in a slightly different place). I shoot the Z7 myself, and I can say that it has truly excellent dynamic range - the lab numbers match my field experience with it. The Q2, on the other hand, is a mediocre performer (by these rarefied standards) - it has the lowest DR of anything in the 40-50 MP class, and the difference at critical low ISOs is over a stop. Here is a Photons to Photos chart showing the S1R, Z7 and Q2.

My only hypothesis at this point is that Panasonic chose not to use the sensor from their partnership from Leica and TowerJazz. The pixel dimensions are actually close enough to the Z7's that the S1R sensor could even be a variant of the Z7/D850 sensor (the S1R gets about another 100 pixels on the long axis, and 70 on the short axis, but that could be Panasonic using a few more pixels on the edge of the sensor that Nikon reserves for non-imaging purposes). The curves look close enough to be variants on the same sensor!

There is now a great deal of speculation that the lower-resolution Panasonic S1 (unexpectedly) uses the most recent version of the standard Sony 24 MP sensor. It, too was thought to use a proprietary sensor - but here it is on Photons to Photos looking just like a Z6, and a lot like an A7III..

They both look an awful lot like standard (excellent) Sony sensors, possibly of the Nikon subspecies... It's very rare to see unrelated sensors look that similar. If you like the Panasonic's big body and other features, they'll image just like a modern Nikon or Sony, which is the best on the market right now!

Thank you for the explanation!  I am trying to find a solution, if possible to work within my existing lenses, which are Leica S and Canon.  Also, I am looking for a mirrorless solution that I can add a Canon tilt/shift via adaptor to.
Thanks again,
Greg
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Dan Wells

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #28 on: April 26, 2019, 09:28:04 pm »

Given your Canon lenses, I might wait to see what Canon's high-res body (due sometime this fall) looks like? Canon's sensors haven't kept pace with the Sony (and Sony-derived) family, but they're building those beautiful RF lenses for something, and I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't build a 28-70 f2 and a 50 f1.2 just for the disappointing (recycled from mid-resolution DSLRs) sensors in the EOS R and EOS RP. The other advantage to Canon if they get their sensor act together is that a tilt/shift on an adapter will probably be more solid in an all-Canon (or all-Nikon, the only other option to get a tilt/shift lens) configuration than in something like Canon lens/Metabones adapter/Sony body. Canon's (and Nikon's) adapters seem from what I've read (and limited in-store fooling with Nikon adapters) to be much better in general than most third-party adapters, which suggests Canon mirrorless for Canon SLR lenses and Nikon for Nikon lenses.

Regarding faberryman's "is it all ergonomics now"? It very well might be all ergonomics and lenses among Nikon, Panasonic and Sony, who all seem to be using very similar Sony-derived sensors. Canon has the disappointing sensors for now, but I suspect that will change... They have very different lens lineups, though, and important ergonomic/feature differences.

Sony has (by far) the largest native lens lineup, of mixed quality, with the best being excellent. Many, but not all of the lenses are bulky. Their bodies are the smallest and lightest, with the best battery life (newer bodies that use the larger battery - the older tiny battery is abysmal) - but none of them really count as weather sealed. Opinions are (to put it mildly) mixed about Sony ergonomics and menus. Adapters will mount just about any lens on a Sony body, but there is no super-stable first party adapter to speak of (there are older ones for some Sony A/Minolta lenses).

Nikon has smallish bodies that are ergonomically excellent, and very well weather sealed. Battery life is in between the old "small battery" Sonys and the new "big battery" models. The native lens lineup is small, but growing quickly, and each lens is excellent (some groundbreaking) for its size/weight/price. The emphasis so far is on modest-aperture lenses that are extremely compact for their optical quality. The FTZ adapter opens up all Nikkor (and many third-party Nikon-mount) SLR lenses, and it's really solid. Adapters for non Nikon-mount lenses are far harder to come by than for Sony, although they're starting to appear.

Panasonic bodies are much larger than Sony or Nikon. The S1r is more than 1.5x as heavy as a Nikon or Sony mirrorless, and heavier than a D850 , and the lenses are huge (the Panasonic 50 mm f1.4 is the size, weight and cost of a 24-70 mm f2.8 - it's $2300 and very close to a kilogram). The only commonly available digital cameras larger than the S1/S1r are the Canon and Nikon sports monsters (the E-M1x is the same size as the S1). Even the battery is big - it's midway between a standard Nikon EN-EL15 and the D5's EN-EL18. The lens philosophy appears to be speed and quality at any cost - damn the weight and the price. Will they be enough better than the Nikkors that are literally half the size to justify it? So far, the adapter selection leans towards Leica lenses, although Canon and Nikon DSLR mount adapters exist. The killer feature may turn out to be a high-resolution multi-shot mode that produces 187mp images in some conditions!



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Ghaag

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #29 on: April 27, 2019, 08:58:46 am »

Given your Canon lenses, I might wait to see what Canon's high-res body (due sometime this fall) looks like? Canon's sensors haven't kept pace with the Sony (and Sony-derived) family, but they're building those beautiful RF lenses for something, and I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt that they didn't build a 28-70 f2 and a 50 f1.2 just for the disappointing (recycled from mid-resolution DSLRs) sensors in the EOS R and EOS RP. The other advantage to Canon if they get their sensor act together is that a tilt/shift on an adapter will probably be more solid in an all-Canon (or all-Nikon, the only other option to get a tilt/shift lens) configuration than in something like Canon lens/Metabones adapter/Sony body. Canon's (and Nikon's) adapters seem from what I've read (and limited in-store fooling with Nikon adapters) to be much better in general than most third-party adapters, which suggests Canon mirrorless for Canon SLR lenses and Nikon for Nikon lenses.

Regarding faberryman's "is it all ergonomics now"? It very well might be all ergonomics and lenses among Nikon, Panasonic and Sony, who all seem to be using very similar Sony-derived sensors. Canon has the disappointing sensors for now, but I suspect that will change... They have very different lens lineups, though, and important ergonomic/feature differences.

Sony has (by far) the largest native lens lineup, of mixed quality, with the best being excellent. Many, but not all of the lenses are bulky. Their bodies are the smallest and lightest, with the best battery life (newer bodies that use the larger battery - the older tiny battery is abysmal) - but none of them really count as weather sealed. Opinions are (to put it mildly) mixed about Sony ergonomics and menus. Adapters will mount just about any lens on a Sony body, but there is no super-stable first party adapter to speak of (there are older ones for some Sony A/Minolta lenses).

Nikon has smallish bodies that are ergonomically excellent, and very well weather sealed. Battery life is in between the old "small battery" Sonys and the new "big battery" models. The native lens lineup is small, but growing quickly, and each lens is excellent (some groundbreaking) for its size/weight/price. The emphasis so far is on modest-aperture lenses that are extremely compact for their optical quality. The FTZ adapter opens up all Nikkor (and many third-party Nikon-mount) SLR lenses, and it's really solid. Adapters for non Nikon-mount lenses are far harder to come by than for Sony, although they're starting to appear.

Panasonic bodies are much larger than Sony or Nikon. The S1r is more than 1.5x as heavy as a Nikon or Sony mirrorless, and heavier than a D850 , and the lenses are huge (the Panasonic 50 mm f1.4 is the size, weight and cost of a 24-70 mm f2.8 - it's $2300 and very close to a kilogram). The only commonly available digital cameras larger than the S1/S1r are the Canon and Nikon sports monsters (the E-M1x is the same size as the S1). Even the battery is big - it's midway between a standard Nikon EN-EL15 and the D5's EN-EL18. The lens philosophy appears to be speed and quality at any cost - damn the weight and the price. Will they be enough better than the Nikkors that are literally half the size to justify it? So far, the adapter selection leans towards Leica lenses, although Canon and Nikon DSLR mount adapters exist. The killer feature may turn out to be a high-resolution multi-shot mode that produces 187mp images in some conditions!

Dan,
Thank you so much for the detailed explanation!  This is what has my attention on the S1r "The killer feature may turn out to be a high-resolution multi-shot mode that produces 187mp images in some conditions!".  What I have not seen and do not know is what the image quality is like.  I would love a higher resolution option with tilt/shift that does not require going to a technical camera.
Thanks again,
Greg
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Dan Wells

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #30 on: April 27, 2019, 05:46:14 pm »

Lloyd Chambers (expensive paysite, but among the most nitpicky and careful of real-world reviewers) seems to be enamored with the 187 MP mode. He says that it handles some motion pretty darned well, although I can't get at his results. Does anyone subscribe, and would it be fair to Lloyd for a subscriber there to post a summary here (obviously not long quotes)? I have a (very boring) test that I haven't had time to process and put up - I shot a brick wall outside a local camera store, very carefully but deliberately handheld to introduce a tiny bit of motion between images - we know that a brick wall and a tripod would have worked. If it gives more resolution than the Z7 and single-shot S1R controls, they certainly have some motion-compensating algorithms!

For perspective, my Z7 is "running me out of printer". I have a 24" wide Canon Pro-2000, and I'm printing 24x36" with a sharpness I just haven't seen before. I had a couple of shots I could crop top and bottom, and I'm getting 46" wide prints that are still critically sharp (about 31x46" if not cropped). My suspicion (unconfirmed, because I haven't come up with a 44" printer to borrow) is that it'll handle 40x60" just fine. ISO 64 is something special - it's literally noiseless. I've never seen a noiseless digital file before... What it reminds me of is  my very limited experience with scanned 4x5" film - the Z7 files aren't as big as a good 4x5" scan, but each pixel holds more real information than any scan. What they share is the sense of enormous depth of detail - it's hard to run out of resolution.

The S1R  in single-shot mode should produce results nearly identical to the Z7 (it seems to be the same sensor or a very close cousin, and everything I've seen about the S1R lenses has been "if you can lift them, you'll like them"). That puts the minimum of low-ISO image quality from the S1R right in the range of decent 4x5" film (assuming the multi-shot mode delivers nothing extra)! Under whatever circumstances the multi-shot mode delivers something extra, that extra is in 8x10" territory!

What does it mean for the accessibility of landscape image-making that we can carry a 1.1 kg body/lens combination that gets 400 images per "film holder" at 4x5" quality and is image-stabilized to the point of critically sharp results handheld at 1/50 second or below (acceptable at 1/10 second, but not 4x5" kind of sharp)? 1.6 kg gets us a range from extreme wide-angle to a portrait lens... Nobody has ever carried a 4x5" field camera on extended hikes on the Pacific Crest Trail (I'm planning on taking the Z7 on the sections I haven't got yet), and if one's ever made it up Denali or Everest, it hasn't happened often (and not much film came along)... That kind of images are now possible from many more places, in many more conditions, since the camera can get most places that the photographer can.

We're at an odd point in photographic history, where the tools that are relatively available are beyond anything they've ever been - but the tool that records most images is among the worst cameras that have been in circulation. Due to diffraction, no smartphone (except for oddities with oversize sensors and huge camera bumps) actually captures much over 3 MP, and they generally have about 6-7 stops of dynamic range. Fine for online if the light's relatively flat, but not really printable...
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 05:56:57 pm by Dan Wells »
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faberryman

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #31 on: April 27, 2019, 05:53:44 pm »

A few cameras have multishot capability yet you rarely hear of anyone using the feature, except for Hasselblad in reproducing artwork. It seems to be a check the box feature. But perhaps someone on LuLa will actually use it and report back.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2019, 04:32:20 pm by faberryman »
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BJL

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range - you underestimate phone-cameras!
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2019, 04:14:00 pm »

... the tool that records most images is among the worst cameras that have been in circulation. Due to diffraction, no smartphone (except for oddities with oversize sensors and huge camera bumps) actually captures much over 3 MP, and they generally have about 6-7 stops of dynamic range.

That makes no sense to me, just starting with comparison of recent model cell-phone images to forebears in the casual photography world, like Brownies, Instamatics, disk cameras, compact 35mm film cameras with slow telescoping zoom lenses and so often used with ISO 400 or 800 film due to the slowness of those lenses, and the early generation of compact CCD cameras.  The claim about a 3MP resolution limit is refuted by just looking at some good mainstream cell-phone camera images on-screen. I suspect that you are using a common but false theoretical idea that the Airy disk diameter is a lower limit on "effective pixel size". The dynamic range claim ignores the very limited SBR handling of most transparency films (this is where black and white film is sometimes used as a mostly irrelevant comparison!), not to mention the ability of modern cell-phone cameras to offer enhanced dynamic range in some situations, by blending several frames or whatever. I would say that apart from the limited FOV range and telephoto reach (just one or two or maybe three actual focal lengths available), casual photography has never had better tools.

How much have you actually done with cell-phone images take by moderately competent photographers? Selfies do not count — that is done with a different camera!
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Dan Wells

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S1R multishot
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2019, 02:53:17 pm »

I looked at my test images from the S1R multishot mode (borrowed S1R in front of a local camera shop). The multishot mode definitely cannot be handheld, even under ideal conditions. I was using a 1/100 of a second shutter speed, f4, ISO 100 pointed at a brick wall about 10 feet away. It took close to 1 second to get all the images - it seems to shoot at the full 9 fps.

In the thumbnail, the result looked like what I would have expected from handholding at a full second without IS - about the expected amount of blur if the shutter had been open that long. Upon a closer examination, there was an additional artifact - a diagonal striping effect. If you think about what it's actually doing, the striping makes sense - it is adding several (individually sharp) exposures together, slightly off-register. The direction of my movement must have been on that diagonal.  It also records one frame (presumably the first ) separately, which was sharp, as expected.

If the multi-shot mode cannot be handheld at all, that probably puts some limit on its ability to handle subject motion as well - whatever motion there is has to be much less than the effect of very steady handholding (I had braced up pretty darned well, because I was trying to see what happened with a minimal amount of motion).

Another interesting result was the sharpness of the Panasonic 50mm f1.4 lens. I also had my own Nikon Z7 out there, with the store's 50mm f1.8 Nikkor Z on it (at exactly the same settings - f4, 1/100, ISO 100), to control against my screwing up with the unfamiliar camera. If the non-multishot Panasonic shots had been lousy, but the Nikon shots had been sharp, I would have known the error was mine - that I had somehow mishandled the S1R.  The little Nikkor was actually slightly sharper than the much larger and more expensive Panasonic lens in the center of the frame (both were very sharp, the Nikkor just had a bit more "bite"). Both were quite close to equal (and very good) at the frame edges. In the extreme corners (1% of the frame), the Panasonic had a clear advantage.

 Other than the extreme corners, though, the compact, relatively inexpensive Nikkor was holding right in there with the Otus-sized Panasonic lens. Of course, this is far from a perfect test - there is only so much you can tell from shooting a brick wall, handheld from 10 feet away with one copy of each lens. Brick walls have no bokeh opportunities, I have no idea if I had a great Nikkor and a lousy Panasonic lens or the other way around, etc. It certainly bodes well for the Nikkor, though (and the Panasonic, but a 1 kg, $2400 50mm had better be a great lens).
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Dan Wells

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2019, 03:09:24 pm »

As for phone cameras, many of the other things BJL mentions are probably also around 3 MP, and the disk cameras may have been significantly worse. Transparency film is more or less irrelevant in the realm of snapshot cameras - all of the above were generally used with print film, which had more DR than any phone (absent computational blending of multiple exposures).

A 3 MP limit is plenty for use on screen (I can often spot a phone image a mile away on screen, but it's the DR, not the resolution that gives them away). Printing a cell phone image, it immediately becomes obvious how limited they are. Another question that comes up with some of the computational techniques (fake bokeh, etc.) is how much it's a photograph, and how much it's something else - an automatically generated, semi-real image of some sort.

Photographers have long manipulated images away from reality - what else are we doing in the darkroom, or in Lightroom? At the extreme, there's certainly a question of whether it's a photograph any longer, or some other form of art? When John Paul Caponigro floats a rock in the air over the ocean, is that a photograph of something that never existed, or is it a beautiful piece of art that is based on one or several photographs? There is no question that it's JPC's image, because he made the original images, then he edited them to produce the new work.

Some of the phone computational techniques are inventing images, as John Paul Caponigro does, but it's not a human artist making the decisions - it's a machine programmed by a human who isn't otherwise involved... What does that produce? A photograph that never was? Some new kind of image? If it's a new kind of image, who's the author? The person who clicked the button? The person who wrote the code? The machine? The cloud?



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BJL

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #35 on: April 29, 2019, 04:37:18 pm »

Dan, firstly, 4K displays can clearly reveal the limitations in a 3MP image, which is about 2K. More so since that is 4K wth full RGB at each pixel vs 2K Bayer CFA, so losing some resolution in demosaicing.

Secondly, when displayed at less than 100% — as images at 12MP and up usually are, whether on lower res screens or most common print sizes — dithering improves DR over “per pixel” measures.

Thirdly, slide film was very popular for much of the 35mm era; in a word, “Kodachrome” (as in the Paul Simon song!) For example, my father never used colour print film. Maybe the shift to 6”x4” prints was the low point of snapshot image quality, with resolution at about 200 PPI, so about matching 1200x800 or around 1MP. Indeed it was when compact cameras with about 1/2” or so CCDs reached 1MP that they about matched that 6x4 print standard.

 But above all, what is your evidence for this “3MP” claim? If you are comparing to prints, I hope you are comparing to equally large prints from consumer grade film (often ISO 200 and up in the era of slow consumer level zoom lenses), not the results of professional grade film and lenses.
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faberryman

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #36 on: April 29, 2019, 04:41:45 pm »

Not sure what any of this has to do with Q2/S1R dynamic range.
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BJL

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #37 on: April 29, 2019, 07:01:05 pm »

Not sure what any of this has to do with Q2/S1R dynamic range.
Agree, and my apologies for following Dan Wells down the rabbit hole in response to his habit of underestimating and disparaging formats smaller than the ones he uses!
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Dan Wells

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #38 on: April 30, 2019, 01:23:06 am »

Point taken about not being satisfied with prints from a lot of consumer-grade devices (I never saw a print I liked from Gold 800 on a super-duper-zoom Pentax compact, either). I've seen optical minilab 4x6"  prints from film SLRs and better compacts that are well above 200 dpi - assuming someone maintained the minilab decently. The early digital printing minilabs were execrable - didn't matter what you fed them (some would even scan medium format film and print it around 1200x800).

I haven't actually looked at a recent iPhone (or high-end Android) image on a 4K+ monitor - none of my monitors are 4K (recent Eizo 27", old Dell 27" and 2017 MacBook Pro). They all have decent resolution at 100% on my monitors, but compromised DR. I have tried to print phone files, and I've never been satisfied.

I don't like phones, 'tis true (as much for issues of insufficient creative control as anything - I taught photography for years, and was very frustrated when a student was trying to learn on something that didn't even have exposure compensation graduated in stops let alone an aperture control) -  I ended up banning phone cameras in class because the control was too hard. Additionally, I personally find the form factor of a phone really hard to hold and use. I have one hand, and trying to tap the damn screen while holding the phone steady is harder for me than anything short of hand-holding 4x5" (and I'd have to try a Wisner with a grip and a sight to see if I might prefer it to a phone). Give me something with a viewfinder and a good shutter button any day.

Other than phones, I don't actually dislike smaller formats at all. I've been very critical of the E-M1x, because it's a big, bulky camera with a small sensor (and very few advantages over the E-M1 mkII) - but a good friend shoots sports with the E-M1 mkII, and it's great - best there is for what he likes to shoot, short of carrying a 1DX II or a D5 with a big ol' lens (and paying for the camera, the lens and the chiropractor bill). I also see a lot of place for Micro 4/3 (and Fuji's lovely primes) in candid and street photography, among other things. I personally shoot landscape in the backcountry, so I'm always looking for the biggest sensor with the most pixels and the most DR that I'm willing to carry, and that the Weather God can't easily destroy in a fit of pique. That's not the right formula for everyone, but it is a formula that has created a bunch of cameras with superb image quality in compact packages.

On that note, welcome Panasonic. They offer an additional option for a really great sensor with another set of ergonomics and lenses. It'll take more testing (does anyone have an S1R) to see what the scope of use is for the multi-shot mode? How much subject motion (if any) can it tolerate? How big a tripod does it require? Even if the answer is "no motion at all", and "a camera stand", the very least they've done is offer a $4000 alternative to the $40,000 Hasselblad 400MS. It may be more versatile than that...

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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Q2/S1R Dynamic range measurements out - nothing too special
« Reply #39 on: May 08, 2019, 04:35:56 pm »

who's the author? The person who clicked the button? The person who wrote the code? The machine? The cloud?

Hope you don't use Photoshop, your pictures could end up being copyrighted by Thomas Knoll!

Regards
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