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Author Topic: S007 Now or S3 later  (Read 2629 times)

BJL

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S007 Now or S3 later: how much size advantage for 44x33 vs 36x24?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2019, 07:55:07 pm »

On the other hand, the new Canon is rumored at 70MP, so maybe the crop MF party is gonna be over soon. I guess the A7R2 also killed a big chunk of the market a couple of years ago - at some point enough pixels are just enough pixels.
You keep ignoring the possible benefits of a larger sensor (and in that comparison to an imagined future Canon 36x24mm sensor, both larger pixels and likely better pixel technology (Sony vs Canon) along with their being more of them). Are you convinced that the size gap from 36x24 to 44x33 is insignificant for IQ? I find that strange, since it is about as big or bigger than:
- 4/3" to "APS-C" (especially Canon's smaller version of "APS-C")
- 44x33mm to 54x40mm (from the "crop MF" that you disparage to "full frame MF")
- 645 to 6x6
- 6x6 to 6x7, and even
- 645 to 6x7.
In all those cases, there have been plenty of people arguing that the larger format has a significant advantage due to that larger size, and even putting there money where their mouths are.
The size gap 36x24 to 44x33 is more so for photographs in "vertical/portrait" shapes like 5:4 or 4:3, which require cropping away a larger fraction from the image recorded by the more "horizontal/landscape" oriented 36x24 format.

P. S. I also find strange Cooter's suggestion that people interested in the 3:2 shaped 45x30mm Leica S series would be more interested in that fictitious square format Hasselblad mockup/vaporware camera that an actual 4:3 format camera!
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JV

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Re: S007 Now or S3 later
« Reply #21 on: March 18, 2019, 11:32:40 am »

The Fuji is pretty much superior in every way, IMHO starting with the lenses...

You said a similar thing about the Leica SL lenses a while ago...

May I ask on what your opinion is based? 

Did you ever try any Leica S or SL lenses?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: S007 Now or S3 later
« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2019, 07:42:32 pm »

You said a similar thing about the Leica SL lenses a while ago...

May I ask on what your opinion is based? 

Did you ever try any Leica S or SL lenses?

SL lenses I don’t have a direct experience with. S lenses a very limited one.

I loved the sharpness and bokeh, was less impressed by CA. But I only tried 2 lenses if I recall (70mm and the 120mm macro I think).

They are sweet lenses but IMHO the Fuji lenses are a bit superior. This shouldn’t come as a surprise since they are more than 8 years newer and these 8 years have seen tremendous progress in terms of lens design.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: March 20, 2019, 10:06:42 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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Neil Williams

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Re: S007 Now or S3 later
« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2019, 08:52:07 pm »

Im selling my like new S007 with 3 lenses 30mm 70mm and 120mm if your interested

Neil

eronald

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Re: S007 Now or S3 later: how much size advantage for 44x33 vs 36x24?
« Reply #24 on: March 20, 2019, 09:42:32 pm »

BJL, I have a feeling you might be an engineer, and as their Telomeres run shorter some engineers realise that what gets made is defined by fashion and marketing as much as by technology.

The wider market of digital cameras is defined by pixel number; cameras get compared by one single number, just like guys get compared by ... what they earn.    ;D

Now if you ask *me* what I believe, I  would argue that the dev work which goes into the components is significant -within the limits allowed by physics. The problem the larger sensors often face is that their tech is cycled more slowly than the tech of the mass produced cameras. As a result, the intrinsic advantage of  2/3 stop in 44x33 gets confronted eg with a basic cell design that is 3 to 5 years more modern.

Thus the older device with more limited data throughput must fight a modern sensor which can source the data for computational photography. This can be seen with the currently employed crop 50MP which competes with 35mm sensors with all the belles and whistles like focus pixels and video frame rates.

By the time one is done counting the plus and minus points, the crop sensor is fighting for its life, while as you point out a larger devices can comfortably cruise on. Phase did the maths and ditched the crop products.

Unfortunately for those of us who like taking pictures, there are no reasonably large-sensor options left.
 
Edmund

You keep ignoring the possible benefits of a larger sensor (and in that comparison to an imagined future Canon 36x24mm sensor, both larger pixels and likely better pixel technology (Sony vs Canon) along with their being more of them). Are you convinced that the size gap from 36x24 to 44x33 is insignificant for IQ? I find that strange, since it is about as big or bigger than:
- 4/3" to "APS-C" (especially Canon's smaller version of "APS-C")
- 44x33mm to 54x40mm (from the "crop MF" that you disparage to "full frame MF")
- 645 to 6x6
- 6x6 to 6x7, and even
- 645 to 6x7.
In all those cases, there have been plenty of people arguing that the larger format has a significant advantage due to that larger size, and even putting there money where their mouths are.
The size gap 36x24 to 44x33 is more so for photographs in "vertical/portrait" shapes like 5:4 or 4:3, which require cropping away a larger fraction from the image recorded by the more "horizontal/landscape" oriented 36x24 format.

P. S. I also find strange Cooter's suggestion that people interested in the 3:2 shaped 45x30mm Leica S series would be more interested in that fictitious square format Hasselblad mockup/vaporware camera that an actual 4:3 format camera!
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BJL

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how much size advantage for 44x33 vs 36x24?
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2019, 12:04:45 am »

The wider market of digital cameras is defined by pixel number; cameras get compared by one single number ...
That goes against almost everything ever said by very serious photographers when arguing the inherent, insuperable inferiority of smaller (noise afflicted and dynamic range challenged) formats, so I will assume that you are joking.

BJL, I have a feeling you might be an engineer ...

Now if you ask *me* what I believe, I  would argue that the dev work which goes into the components is significant -within the limits allowed by physics.
I in turn have heard that you are indeed an engineer (I am an applied mathematician, so not very far off) and if so, you know that although that is a plausible hypotheses, it needs to be tested and quantified before stating as fact that technological age outweighs size in this comparison — especially since Sony's 100 MP 44x33mm does not seem to be 3 to 5 years old. Let us see at least one photograph from the forthcoming 100MP Fujifilm camera before we declare it doomed!

BTW, while Phase One has apparently decided that its bulky MF SLR system with lenses and mount still based around the 645 film format can only survive at the high end of the price and size range, it is also true that both Hasselblad and Fujifilm have dedicated their new mirrorless MF systems to the 44x33mm format, and by developing new lenses and such are probably investing and risking more than Phase One is with its incremental upgrade approach. So I would say that their "votes" in favor of 44x33 are worth at least as much as Phase One's "vote" against.
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Bo_Dez

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Re: S007 Now or S3 later
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2019, 11:03:36 pm »

IMO, it makes sense to wait unless you absolutely need it right now.

The cost of the 007 is dropping fast and the more you wait the more it will drop.
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eronald

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Re: how much size advantage for 44x33 vs 36x24?
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2019, 09:26:11 pm »



BTW, while Phase One has apparently decided that its bulky MF SLR system with lenses and mount still based around the 645 film format can only survive at the high end of the price and size range, it is also true that both Hasselblad and Fujifilm have dedicated their new mirrorless MF systems to the 44x33mm format, and by developing new lenses and such are probably investing and risking more than Phase One is with its incremental upgrade approach. So I would say that their "votes" in favor of 44x33 are worth at least as much as Phase One's "vote" against.

Actually, I think Sony's 100Mp crop sensor is about 1 year in market, which means that whatever is launched in the fall/winter will be 18 months newer. I expect the 70MP 35mm chips to drop in the fall.

Phase has had 100MP crop in an aerial system since May last year:
https://petapixel.com/2018/05/01/phase-ones-new-drone-camera-is-first-to-pack-100mp-sony-bsi-sensor/

So my feeling is that in the fall the latest 35mm gear from Sony -A7RIV- will be in-market with the FUJI GFX-100, with 70MP competing against 100 and roughly equivalent per-cell performance, but a lot of tricks on the Sony thanks to some high memory bandwidth to the sensor. Apart from the MF "look" I don't think 1/2 stop total DR advantage over the sensor or 50% more pixels in the bigger camera are really going to make a difference to many these days. Not a $5K difference anyway. A fullframe 150MP sensor and thus more than 1 stop DR or 2x the number of pixels and a real "look" difference does have meaning.

I regret to have to say this, but I think the guys at Phase know what they're doing. And their decision to abandon prosumer crop MF and concentrate on fullframe and software makes sense. Fuji don't do 35mm so crop-MF is ok for them, a big step up from APS-C for happy customers who appreciate Fuji ergonomics and optics.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 22, 2019, 09:35:53 pm by eronald »
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BJL

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Re: how much size advantage for 44x33 vs 36x24?
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2019, 12:26:41 pm »

I regret to have to say this, but I think the guys at Phase know what they're doing. And their decision to abandon prosumer crop MF and concentrate on fullframe and software makes sense.
I'll wrap this up by agreeing with you on that part: Phase One's current MF SLR system is based on a very deep lens mount as needed for the deep mirror box of a 645 format film camera, and with a lens system (mostly) built around the 70mm image diagonal of that format, and the combination of that with a back that crops to 44x33mm (55mm diagonal) would be at a severe competitive disadvantage against the Hasselblad and Fujifilm mirrorless systems designed from the ground up for the 44x33mm format and freed of the lens design constraints of the larger image circle and far deeper and wider lens mount — and is maybe also in a weak position against the Leica 45x30mm format S-mount DSLR system, also with roughly 55mm image diagonal.

Maybe the end game for Phase One will be software, plus some special purpose industrial cameras like drones.

I somewhat agree with your expectation that larger, lower volume sensor formats might suffer from slower development rates, with the largest and lowest volume 54x40mm niche at the greatest disadvantage, 44x33mm second worst, then 36x24mm, and with APS-C probably attracting the most vigorous attention (other than phone-sized sensors). Also, any innovation at one sensor size is very easy to downsize (e.g. same photosite size, just fewer of them), whereas upsizing can involve extra complications with signal speed, worse noise and attenuation with longer signal paths, lower fab. yields, amplified by the need to stitch more "exposures" on the wafer, and so on.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 03:17:07 pm by BJL »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: S007 Now or S3 later
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2019, 02:12:17 pm »

It's worth noting re the above that Phase One hasn't abandoned the entry-level price point. They just don't tackle it with their new flagship products.

For example, we have the Phase One IQ260 right now for just under $10k with full warranty, support, and guaranteed excellent condition. It's not the IQ4 150mp, but it's an unbelievably good camera for someone who, for example, shoots fashion for the web. Great skintones, more than enough res, great lenses/body/features, and the things it lacks (e.g. no super fast live view like the IQ4) aren't (typically) important for that use case.

Doug Peterson

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Re: how much size advantage for 44x33 vs 36x24?
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2019, 02:14:10 pm »

Phase One's... lens system (mostly) built around the 70mm image diagonal of that format.

Every single Phase One and Schneider lens was built for a 645 full frame sensor.

Maybe you're confusing it with the Hasselblad line that has several HCD lenses that were designed for a cropped 645 sensor?

BJL

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Re: how much size advantage for 44x33 vs 36x24?
« Reply #31 on: March 23, 2019, 03:15:39 pm »

Every single Phase One and Schneider lens was built for a 645 full frame sensor.

Maybe you're confusing it with the Hasselblad line that has several HCD lenses that were designed for a cropped 645 sensor?
Thanks Doug; I just put the “mostly” in there in case I was overlooking some smaller format lenses.

That does confirm my point that the Phase One system is far better off going with 54x40 format exclusively.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2019, 06:00:48 pm by BJL »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: S007 Now or S3 later
« Reply #32 on: March 23, 2019, 04:42:39 pm »

P1 is going from niche to super niche.

There aren’t many examples where such a contraction has resulted in more ability to serve better customer needs in technology centric domains.

Cutting edge technology simply needs volume to justify the development costs.

Hasselblad and Fuji have played smarter IMHO.

I wouldn’t be surprised if P1 were aquired by another photography player (Fuji?) and they would mostly be interested in C1 Pro IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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Re: S007 Now or S3 later
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2019, 08:28:42 am »

P1 is going from niche to super niche.

There aren’t many examples where such a contraction has resulted in more ability to serve better customer needs in technology centric domains.

Cutting edge technology simply needs volume to justify the development costs.

Hasselblad and Fuji have played smarter IMHO.

I wouldn’t be surprised if P1 were aquired by another photography player (Fuji?) and they would mostly be interested in C1 Pro IMHO.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard no one is preventing P1 from downsizing the price when they want to sell more. It's just the sensor which at the moment doesn't really make sense to downsize - come on, Phase sell an XF body with no sensor for more money than Fuji sell a body with a 50MP sensor; their lenscaps probably list for as much as a backup dSLR, although equally probably Dealer Doug will send you one of those for free.  All of this only works because they have a MONOPOLY on single-click 150MP.

Edmund

Note - I am not a paid shill of Doug Peterson, nor do our views on anything involving Phase One usually coincide, but I do respect the art of Doug Peterson the photographer. Any views by me represented in this topic are intended for purposes of satire and should not inform a buying decision.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 08:41:14 am by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: how much size advantage for 44x33 vs 36x24?
« Reply #34 on: March 24, 2019, 10:06:55 am »

Hi Edmund,

I guess we need to wait and see. Could be that 70 MP 24x36 sensors are overdue, but I don't think they have announced any camera, yet.

The 100 MP 33x44 mm sensor cropped to 24x36 mm would correspond to like 60 MP.

Best regards
Erik

Actually, I think Sony's 100Mp crop sensor is about 1 year in market, which means that whatever is launched in the fall/winter will be 18 months newer. I expect the 70MP 35mm chips to drop in the fall.

Phase has had 100MP crop in an aerial system since May last year:
https://petapixel.com/2018/05/01/phase-ones-new-drone-camera-is-first-to-pack-100mp-sony-bsi-sensor/

So my feeling is that in the fall the latest 35mm gear from Sony -A7RIV- will be in-market with the FUJI GFX-100, with 70MP competing against 100 and roughly equivalent per-cell performance, but a lot of tricks on the Sony thanks to some high memory bandwidth to the sensor. Apart from the MF "look" I don't think 1/2 stop total DR advantage over the sensor or 50% more pixels in the bigger camera are really going to make a difference to many these days. Not a $5K difference anyway. A fullframe 150MP sensor and thus more than 1 stop DR or 2x the number of pixels and a real "look" difference does have meaning.

I regret to have to say this, but I think the guys at Phase know what they're doing. And their decision to abandon prosumer crop MF and concentrate on fullframe and software makes sense. Fuji don't do 35mm so crop-MF is ok for them, a big step up from APS-C for happy customers who appreciate Fuji ergonomics and optics.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 24, 2019, 11:07:34 am by ErikKaffehr »
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faberryman

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Re: how much size advantage for 44x33 vs 36x24?
« Reply #35 on: March 24, 2019, 10:11:14 am »

The 52 MP 33x44 mm sensor cropped to 24x36 mm would correspond to like 60 MP.
The 52MP 33x44 sensor crops to 31MP.  It is the Phase One (Sony) 150MP sensor that crops to 60MP.

ErikKaffehr

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Re: how much size advantage for 44x33 vs 36x24?
« Reply #36 on: March 24, 2019, 11:08:57 am »

You are right!

Sorry!

Best regards
Erik

The 52MP 33x44 sensor crops to 31MP.  It is the Phase One (Sony) 150MP sensor that crops to 60MP.
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Dan Wells

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Re: S007 Now or S3 later
« Reply #37 on: March 28, 2019, 12:22:49 pm »

Right now, the Sony sensors are (roughly) at technological parity from APS-C on up to 54x40mm MF - all are modern, copper-wired BSI designs, and all perform very similarly per pixel. Several of them (26 MP APS-C, 100 MP 33x44mm, 150 MP 54x40mm) actually seem to be the same pixels in different sensor sizes). There are three blips in this trend...

1.) The 50MP 33x44mm sensor is NOT of this lineage - it's a full generation or more older (non-copper, non BSI), and it barely competes with the 40+ MP modern 24x36mm sensors despite its size advantage. The 100MP 33x44mm sensor is the representative of the modern Sony lineage, but we only see it on the market in one industrial camera (the GFX 100 will be the first "standard" camera to use it).

2.) The 40+MP 24x36mm sensors are of roughly the same technological generation, but they are not the same pixels - the pixels are a bit bigger (just over 4 micron, while the others are all 3.76). Sony datasheets have shown a 61MP 24x36mm sensor, which will use the "standard pixel", but it hasn't cropped up (sorry) in any camera yet.

3.) If the 20MP Micro 4/3 sensor is a Sony sensor, it is a much older generation, technologically closer to the 50MP 33x44 sensor, and it uses a smaller, nonstandard pixel size. A "standard pixel" Micro 4/3 sensor would be around 15MP.

Once we see those two sensors (100MP 33x44 is probably a significant improvement, 61MP 24x36 is probably incremental because the 40+MP generation is already modern), there will be a wide range of cameras with very similar per-pixel behavior - it's just a matter of how many pixels you want to carry and pay for.

Essentially all non Sony-derived (counting both XTrans and Nikon/Sony designs as Sony-derived) sensors underperform the Sonys. The initial Photons to Photos results for the Leica Q2 sensor (probably TowerJazz, and probably also the Panasonic S1R sensor) show that it behaves much more like a high-resolution Canon sensor than a modern Sony. The default assumption about the Canon 70ish MP sensor is that it'll probably perform like a Canon, but maybe they've made a breakthrough.

Beating the Sonys may well take a new technology, whether it is organic sensors, a Foveon with the bugs out, or something else.
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faberryman

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Re: S007 Now or S3 later
« Reply #38 on: March 28, 2019, 01:57:54 pm »

The default assumption about the Canon 70ish MP sensor is that it'll probably perform like a Canon, but maybe they've made a breakthrough.
I have seen the70MP Canon sensor mentioned once on a rumor site. It is not a rumor; it is a WAG.

Doug Peterson

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Re: S007 Now or S3 later
« Reply #39 on: March 28, 2019, 02:54:39 pm »

Once we see those two sensors (100MP 33x44 is probably a significant improvement, 61MP 24x36 is probably incremental because the 40+MP generation is already modern), there will be a wide range of cameras with very similar per-pixel behavior - it's just a matter of how many pixels you want to carry and pay for.

It's so weird that in the modern digital age so many people conflate "Sensors" and "Cameras"

Even if it were true that you get the same per-pixel performance out of a small-format camera as you get out of an IQ4 150mp (it is not remotely true, but put that aside for a minute...) the difference between two cameras is far, far more than the difference in sensors.

If an iPhone had identical "pixels" to an IQ4 150mp the two would still have their unique sets of pros and cons, and have almost nothing in common as cameras.
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