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Author Topic: Capture sharpening in Lightroom  (Read 4407 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #40 on: March 10, 2019, 04:30:43 pm »

Insane and insulting again! I said there is no capture sharpening [per se] because in Lr an image can be fully edited and sharpened for taste.
And that's utterly wrong. If you're insulted by being corrected, tough. You don't have the foggiest idea of what you're talking about with respect to LR and sharpening. It has nothing to do with semantics, that's not going to wash here. No, you're not clearer, you're still absolutely wrong. You've been told by multiple people, even one what helped design the sharpening in the product itself. What's insane is you don't have the capacity to learn then accept facts. You're in a bubble. You really SHOULD move onto another web forum where myth and alternative facts rule the day. Maybe there, some will take your posts seriously.
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

faberryman

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #41 on: March 10, 2019, 04:31:22 pm »

Insane and insulting again! I said there is no capture sharpening [per se] because in Lr an image can be fully edited and sharpened for taste.

I made a comment on semantics. You disagree and it is fine. But for the end user Lr does capture and creative sharpening as a minimum. I call it capture only if the user loads an image in Lr, does nothing to it (as far as sharpening - using the default) and passing it to PS for creative sharpening and further output/printing sharpening.

I hope that what I meant is clearer. In retrospect not worth the effort, but I owe it to the silent readers. ;)
Calling a swan a goose does not make it a goose. It is not semantics. You are using the term capture sharpening incorrectly. Get with the program.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 04:37:57 pm by faberryman »
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digitaldog

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Try getting out of your alternative fact reality!
« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2019, 04:57:17 pm »


Indeed, It is not semantics. That's a lame excuse.

But what does Adobe know about the naming of capture sharpening in LR adais?
http://blogs.adobe.com/jkost/2014/05/capture-sharpening-in-lightroom.html
Julieanne Kost's Blog /
Capture Sharpening in Lightroom

Or JP Caponigro:
https://www.johnpaulcaponigro.com/blog/16939/capture-sharpening-with-lightroom-adobe-camera-raw/

Or your go to source adais: Bruce Fraser and Jeff Schewe (in their book):
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/real-world-image/9780321679307/
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Rand47

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #43 on: March 10, 2019, 07:43:21 pm »

Well Andrew, there's always "alternative facts" and then one doesn't need to get angry after all!  ;D

OK, back to serious - Rand - this isn't a matter of being angry. The problem is that when any of us write stuff that's just simply wrong, (which any of us can periodically do), and then rather than simply accepting correction from those who know it better persist in reiterating misunderstanding, it sets back constructive progress of the conversation and distracts from gaining useful insight that many of us come here to share. So it's not helpful, and sometimes one is motivated to be a bit insistent in the interest of improving the signal to noise ratio.

Mark (and Andrew),

My “angry” comment was intended for “adias” - hoping he’d tone down the incorrect, and as it has turned out, somewhat arrogant and pugnacious rhetoric.  I think the only thing that may be forgivable is that it appears he has no clue as to whom he’s arguing with!  Surprising, I think?

I’m smart enough around here, to at least know how dumb I am (most of the time.  :) ) when I hear one of our real authorities speak!  ;D

There’s something to be learned here, but I fear it has fallen on intentionally deaf ears.  Too bad.  Hard to advance in knowledge when the only thing on your mind is some sort of purile retort.

So, my thanks to Andrew, Jeff and Mark, for all that I’ve learned from you over the years here. 

Rand
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 07:50:31 pm by Rand47 »
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Rand Scott Adams

BAB

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2019, 12:08:04 am »

Some people can’t let their reputation do the talking...there have been many geniuses through time with short fuses doesn’t make them wrong just makes them unpleasant.
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digitaldog

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #45 on: March 11, 2019, 09:31:50 am »

Some people can’t let their reputation do the talking...there have been many geniuses through time with short fuses doesn’t make them wrong just makes them unpleasant.
Right and unpleasant beats wrong any day of the week in my opinion.
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Hoggy

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #46 on: March 17, 2019, 06:02:47 pm »

Right and unpleasant beats wrong any day of the week in my opinion.

Make right, not love!  ;D
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bwana

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2019, 09:36:10 pm »

Although capture sharpening is applied early in the workflow, I do not see why it should be applied globally. Certain areas of the image (sky, water, etc) do not benefit from sharpening if there is no detail there to enhance.  My impression is that that the application of sharpening locally has been termed 'creative sharpening' and I certainly understand this application of sharpening. But why would anyone want to apply sharpening globally.?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #48 on: March 18, 2019, 10:48:08 pm »

Two ways to handle this: use the masking slider in the sharpening tool. Or, sharpen selectively by creating local adjustment masks and using the sharpening tool therein. Most of what you don't necessarily want to sharpen is sky and skin, for which the masking slider inside the sharpening tool is well-adapted to handle.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
Author: "Scanning Workflows with SilverFast 8....."

Zen8

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #49 on: March 20, 2019, 06:19:40 am »

Although capture sharpening is applied early in the workflow, I do not see why it should be applied globally. Certain areas of the image (sky, water, etc) do not benefit from sharpening if there is no detail there to enhance.  My impression is that that the application of sharpening locally has been termed 'creative sharpening' and I certainly understand this application of sharpening. But why would anyone want to apply sharpening globally.?

That is what the masking sider is for and you can also use the brush for creative sharpening.     

nemophoto

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2019, 08:58:20 am »

In Lr there is no capture sharpening. Sharpening is final edited image sharpening. There is print sharpening post edit, for targeted printing.
This is not correct. Any sharpening you do within Lightroom in the develop module can be considered “capture sharpening”. LR, by default, adds a small amount to start.

I have, however, found a good setting that I use for sharpening images that I later bring into PS for additional work. (This is not to be confused with the output sharpening when you export your RAW or print via the Print Module.)

I use a setting of 80 with a radius of .5 and then mask based on subject. (For me as a fashion photographer, I want to keep skin smooth so often mask from 20-30, based on lighting, subject, camera.)

For me, I do one last bit of sharpening when I export for Photoshop. I set export sharpening to “screen - low”. I find these settings do a good job for prepping my image for additional work without introducing other artifacts. Often the images for one client are blown up to 8’ tall, others are about 17” to 20”. All are printed. However, I do roughly the same thing when I work on my landscape images which are anywhere from 5x7 to 40”x60”. The difference for all these images is NOT the sharpening I’ve done in LR when developing but sharpening for final output. Now, THERE is the real difference in settings. My clients will do final sharpening for there own needs. For myself, I usually print from Lightroom and use the excellent settings Jeff helped develop based on size and subject.


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nemophoto

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2019, 09:07:47 am »

That is what the masking sider is for and you can also use the brush for creative sharpening.   
The masking slider essentially masks out areas to which you don’t want to apply sharpening. For example, you don’t want to sharpen a blue sky or any other area of smooth tone. Hold down the Alt key as you use the slider and you will see the black mask as it is applied. Sharpening is really just the accentuation of edge contrast between pixels of relatively different brightness — hence contrast. Your eye sees contrast before all other elements and thus your perception of “sharpness” of an image. I used to have almost 20/10 in my left (shooting eye). Now, it’s “only” 20/20. This is because I have cataracts gradually forming and so every year, for the past three I complain to my doc that things just are not as “sharp”. One of the reasons is because the cataracts reduce the contrast and creates a blurring of the edges.


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Zen8

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #52 on: April 01, 2019, 12:58:05 am »

The masking slider essentially masks out areas to which you don’t want to apply sharpening. For example, you don’t want to sharpen a blue sky or any other area of smooth tone. Hold down the Alt key as you use the slider and you will see the black mask as it is applied. Sharpening is really just the accentuation of edge contrast between pixels of relatively different brightness — hence contrast. Your eye sees contrast before all other elements and thus your perception of “sharpness” of an image. I used to have almost 20/10 in my left (shooting eye). Now, it’s “only” 20/20. This is because I have cataracts gradually forming and so every year, for the past three I complain to my doc that things just are not as “sharp”. One of the reasons is because the cataracts reduce the contrast and creates a blurring of the edges.


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saiguy

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #53 on: April 01, 2019, 09:32:39 am »

This might be a little off topic. I scan 35mm slides using SilverFast 8. Then I open them in PS and apply Neat Image NR and Focus Magic sharpening.

It is said to not sharpen twice. Should I NOT apply any further sharpening in LR? Or might there be some merit in doing so. Any reason to not to apply some Clarity?
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KeithR

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #54 on: April 01, 2019, 12:38:50 pm »

The 2 areas of sharpening in LR refer 1st to capture sharpen-either globally or selectively to correct for the digital capture. The 2nd is for output (if your printing through LR) and is determined by the media (matte or glossy) and the size of the print (if you intend to print out of LR). So if you have already applied sharpening via Focus Magic, you could think of that as photo capture.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2019, 01:22:45 pm by KeithR »
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saiguy

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #55 on: April 01, 2019, 02:38:41 pm »

Thanks KeithR.

The scan project is about 9500 Kodachrome's. They are scanned to be 5x7 inch, 300 ppi 16 bit TIFF in ProPhoto. We will put them on a PC in a LR Catalogue. They will use that for slide shows and key word searching.

I will export them from my Mac to a PC formatted external drive. Thats where the out put sharpening will be applied.

Based on your comments I will look to applying LR sharpening, use some Clarity which is a different thing anyway, just like my previous work flow before I got Focus Magic.

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Zen8

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Re: Try getting out of your alternative fact reality!
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2019, 10:11:01 am »

Indeed, It is not semantics. That's a lame excuse.

But what does Adobe know about the naming of capture sharpening in LR adais?
http://blogs.adobe.com/jkost/2014/05/capture-sharpening-in-lightroom.html
Julieanne Kost's Blog /
Capture Sharpening in Lightroom

Or JP Caponigro:
https://www.johnpaulcaponigro.com/blog/16939/capture-sharpening-with-lightroom-adobe-camera-raw/

Or your go to source adais: Bruce Fraser and Jeff Schewe (in their book):
https://www.oreilly.com/library/view/real-world-image/9780321679307/

Kost's answer is kind of interesting. Default for Detail is 25 which is already suppressing sharpening. The lower the number the more halo suppression. Higher values are deconvolution but you lose halo suppression and noise appears. It seems to me that 25 is would be pretty good for landscapes. If I had not known better based on her answer I would have moved the slider to the right. I may have misinterpreted her.                       

Dave Rosser

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #57 on: April 09, 2019, 11:16:44 am »

The default sharpening settings in Lightroom have varied over time.  In Lightroom 4 there was a choice of 2 starting points:  Sharpening - Narrow Edges (scenic)  with settings of amount 40, radius 0.8 and detail 35 and Sharpening - Wide Edge (Faces) with settings of amount 35, radius 1.4 and detail 35.  You selected your default in the presets panel.
In the latest version of Lightroom when you open the Presets panel (Window/Panels and select Presets) you have a  choice of 4 starting settings for sharpening None, Light (25/1.0/25), Medium (45/1.0/25) and Heavy (75/1.0/25)
I mention this because there seems to be some confusion through this thread on what the default Lightroom sharpening settings are.

Edit: If you don't set a sharpening preset on import in Apply During Import/Develop Settings Lightroom defaults to 40/1.0/25
« Last Edit: April 09, 2019, 11:33:07 am by Dave Rosser »
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nemophoto

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #58 on: April 11, 2019, 01:02:26 pm »

Where I feel LR excels is sharpening for export, especially for web/screen. It's my preferred way to sharpen for export for my web site or client's. For general Capture sharpening, I actually still prefer the sharpening in Capture One. Guess you can't have it all... Most other aspects of LR are easier and more straightforward, not to mention MUCH better custom camera profiles I create.
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David Eichler

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #59 on: April 11, 2019, 05:58:35 pm »

This conversation seems a bit “angry” for no good reason. 

I don't know about angry, but some frustration is understandable, since there is a variety of misinformation that various parties are offering. Also, I have the sneaking suspicion that the OP has not bothered to study an authoritative reference manual on Lightroom, which would easily have answered his question.

To correct some misinformation, I submit the following facts, and a bit of opinion:

1. Lightroom offers three types of sharpening, capture, creative and output. The creative sharpening feature may be found in the sharpening functions of the brush and gradient tools.

2. The amount of capture and creative sharpening used is interrelated with the amount of output sharpening, and is also dependent upon the subject matter and the type of equipment used to take the photo. In my opinion, since Lightroom offers a relatively limited range of output sharpening options, you need to work backward from this by choosing levels of output sharpening for your choices of output medium and selecting your capture and creative sharpening relative to that, which will require some experimentation.

3. Tastes will differ.







« Last Edit: April 11, 2019, 10:57:11 pm by David Eichler »
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