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Author Topic: Capture sharpening in Lightroom  (Read 4178 times)

adias

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #20 on: March 09, 2019, 08:45:48 pm »

There absolutely IS capture sharpening in Lightroom ...

I disagree! Bruce Frasier's nomenclature of Capture, Output, Print sharpening was in a world of 3 separate functions. It's still valid if one uses a standalone Raw Converter where Capture Sharpening is applied, followed by a photo editor where Output Sharpening is applied as the last layered step, followed by a print app where Print Sharpening is used as appropriate the printing res and surface demands.

In Lightroom which includes a raw converter (ACR) and a layered photo editor there is only one sharpening and that is Output Sharpening, which, as others said, it should be applied to taste, or in my view applied so that the image looks best at 100% view. Of course, if one uses Lightroom as a standalone raw converter and reserves full editing for a photo editor, such as PS, whatever sharpening Lr does is Capture Sharpening, which should be applied cautiously, given that final Output sharpening will be the last step of the photo editor.
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digitaldog

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #21 on: March 09, 2019, 08:53:58 pm »

I disagree! Bruce Frasier's nomenclature of Capture, Output, Print sharpening was in a world of 3 separate functions. It's still valid if one uses a standalone Raw Converter where Capture Sharpening is applied, followed by a photo editor where Output Sharpening is applied as the last layered step, followed by a print app where Print Sharpening is used as appropriate the printing res and surface demands.
You can disagree and be wrong dude, Bruce (and I, and Jeff and PG/Company) licensed our product TO Adobe for capture sharpening IN Lightroom. Got the very handsome checks to show for it. And of course, Jeff stated as well, in the URL I posted that indeed LR has capture sharpening.
So go ahead and disagree all you want; you're utterly wrong.  ;)
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Andrew Rodney
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digitaldog

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #22 on: March 09, 2019, 09:05:23 pm »

In Lightroom which includes a raw converter (ACR) and a layered photo editor there is only one sharpening and that is Output Sharpening, which, as others said, it should be applied to taste, or in my view applied so that the image looks best at 100% view.
Missed this?

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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

adias

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #23 on: March 09, 2019, 10:41:00 pm »

You can disagree and be wrong dude, Bruce (and I, and Jeff and PG/Company) licensed our product TO Adobe for capture sharpening IN Lightroom. Got the very handsome checks to show for it. And of course, Jeff stated as well, in the URL I posted that indeed LR has capture sharpening.
So go ahead and disagree all you want; you're utterly wrong.  ;)

So Andrew you must be right. But if Lr only does Capture Sharpening, then an image fully processed by Lr and displayed as such must lack sharpening... and we know it does not. In any case, this an argument akin of how many angels and on the head of a pin. ;)
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digitaldog

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #24 on: March 09, 2019, 10:56:13 pm »

So Andrew you must be right. But if Lr only does Capture Sharpening, then an image fully processed by Lr and displayed as such must lack sharpening... and we know it does not. In any case, this an argument akin of how many angels and on the head of a pin. ;)
LR can only do capture sharpening; what gave you that further misunderstanding?
Yes I am right.
No argument. If you need one, you are dealing with the wrong guy. You need to go here:
« Last Edit: March 09, 2019, 11:04:18 pm by digitaldog »
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

adias

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #25 on: March 10, 2019, 01:14:47 am »

LR can only do capture sharpening; what gave you that further misunderstanding?
Yes I am right.
No argument. If you need one, you are dealing with the wrong guy. You need to go here:...


I am just using Frasier's nomenclature logic from his book, but given your new road, I take another path moving away from your journey.

But I learned something from what you emphatically state - Lr only does capture sharpening and thus images displayed by Lr are therefore not sharpened. Good to know!
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Tony Jay

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #26 on: March 10, 2019, 04:45:43 am »

I am just using Frasier's nomenclature logic from his book, but given your new road, I take another path moving away from your journey.

But I learned something from what you emphatically state - Lr only does capture sharpening and thus images displayed by Lr are therefore not sharpened. Good to know!
Honestly you are being really stupid here!
ALL the sharpening tools in Lightroom are derived from a product called Photokit Sharpener of which two of the creators of that product are active on this forum: Jeff Schewe and Andrew Rodney (AKA digitaldog on this forum).

Lightroom has access to three levels of sharpening: capture sharpening, creative sharpening and output sharpening...

The guys you are arguing with and misquoting are the reason those sharpening options actually exist in Lightroom in their current form!

Wake up and smell the coffee!!!!
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digitaldog

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #27 on: March 10, 2019, 09:43:32 am »

But I learned something from what you emphatically state - Lr only does capture sharpening and thus images displayed by Lr are therefore not sharpened. Good to know!
No! It does both capture and limited output sharpening. It should be obvious to anyone using LR who's ventured into the Develop (as shown) and Print module.
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #28 on: March 10, 2019, 10:19:57 am »

I am just using Frasier's nomenclature logic from his book, but given your new road, I take another path moving away from your journey.

But I learned something from what you emphatically state - Lr only does capture sharpening and thus images displayed by Lr are therefore not sharpened. Good to know!

It's kinda pointless arguing with people who don't know what they are talking about and refuse to recognize that they don't know what they don't know.

The exact process description in Bruce Fraser's book is relevant to a three-stage sharpening process, whereas Lightroom uses a two stage sharpening process. Therefore it is obvious that process adaptation has occurred between what is in Fraser's book and what is happening in Lightroom. You aren't qualified to know how that adaptation was designed and scripted, therefore you aren't qualified to pass judgment on what the Develop stage of sharpening implies. You can however look at your images as you sharpen them in the Develop module and judge for yourself whether they look correctly sharpened, as I tried to impart to another member of this thread who seems to think it irrelevant to introduce taste and judgment as a primary consideration in the sharpening process. The sharpening that takes place in the Print Module, however, doesn't depend on taste or judgement; it is there only to provide for the sharpening requirements of printing in order to maintain your desired sharpness in the printed product, and that is why it depends only on resolution and dimensions. So sharpen to taste in the Develop Module, at 100% to see the effect, and be happy when you've got it right - to taste.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Rand47

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #29 on: March 10, 2019, 10:41:01 am »

This conversation seems a bit “angry” for no good reason.  I use Lightroom’s capture sharpening all the time.  Then I’ll often do some “creative” local sharpeneing using the local adjustment brush (very carefully).  Then I do output sharpening when making a print from Lightroom’s excellent print module.  The print sharpening selections, though seemingly “too simple” are actually quite excellent in my view, and “on the fly” for whatever print size one is making.  OR, I do output sharpening via the export dialog for “screen” if I’m exporting a copy of my master file to be displayed on, well, screens.

All three; all very nicely executed.  Jeff Schewe’s books “The Digital Negative” and “The Digital Print” are excellent when it comes to understanding how it all works, and how much “good stuff” there is under the hood in Lightroom.  I will often turn off the default amounts of capture sharpening that Lightroom applies on import, and start from scratch.  I find that thoughtful use of the masking before I begin to “do much” helps a lot with the quality of the outcome of Amount, Radius, and Detail sliders.  And as Jeff points out, there is an interrelationship between the noise sliders and sharpening sliders so that I’ll often tweak the sharpening after I’ve addressed any needed noise adjustments.  IF I remember correctly, there’s an excellent tutorial that Jeff gives in the “From Camera to Screen and Print” videos.

Are there other, more sophisticated, ways to do sharpening?  Certainly.  Perhaps especially for problem image files.  But Lightroom’s tools really are excellent in their own right thanks to Andrew, Jeff and the others at Pixel Genius.  And, these days, you’d have to beat me with a rubber hose to get me to print out of Photoshop, versus Lightroom!  Lightroom’s Print Module, with the ability to create presets for printer, paper, size, layout, ICC profile application, is FABULOUS.  The only variable that I need to remember is rendering intent, because Lightroom’s soft proof rendering intent selection isn’t “sticky” when you go from soft proof to Print Module.

Rand
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 11:01:11 am by Rand47 »
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Rand Scott Adams

digitaldog

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #30 on: March 10, 2019, 12:46:53 pm »

This conversation seems a bit “angry” for no good reason.
Fact deniers make some angry.  ::)
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #31 on: March 10, 2019, 12:49:39 pm »

Fact deniers make some angry.  ::)

But how helpful it that ...?

Cheers,
Bart
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

digitaldog

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #32 on: March 10, 2019, 12:52:58 pm »

But how helpful it that ...?

Cheers,
Bart
To be angry? Difficult (and I cannot or will not ever) to speak for others. Calling posts angry of others could be considered assumptions. Calling out fact deniers with actual facts is super helpful for non fact deniers.
Some can be angry in posting repeated facts unheard by the fact deniers and provide the facts. The two are not mutually exclusive. 
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Andrew Rodney
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #33 on: March 10, 2019, 01:04:25 pm »

Fact deniers make some angry.  ::)

Well Andrew, there's always "alternative facts" and then one doesn't need to get angry after all!  ;D

OK, back to serious - Rand - this isn't a matter of being angry. The problem is that when any of us write stuff that's just simply wrong, (which any of us can periodically do), and then rather than simply accepting correction from those who know it better persist in reiterating misunderstanding, it sets back constructive progress of the conversation and distracts from gaining useful insight that many of us come here to share. So it's not helpful, and sometimes one is motivated to be a bit insistent in the interest of improving the signal to noise ratio.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #34 on: March 10, 2019, 01:08:46 pm »

... in the interest of improving the signal to noise ratio.

+1

Cheers,
Bart
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

adias

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #35 on: March 10, 2019, 01:12:50 pm »

But how helpful it that ...?

Cheers,
Bart

This forum, like many others, lost it long ago. Angry and insulting, in areas where 'facts' in this case border on semantics, but that is the world we live in. Checking out.
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digitaldog

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #36 on: March 10, 2019, 01:30:07 pm »

This forum, like many others, lost it long ago. Angry and insulting, in areas where 'facts' in this case border on semantics, but that is the world we live in. Checking out.
Maybe you should move on then. No great loss.  :o

"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it". Joseph Joubert
Of course, the debate was settled with actual facts, LR has both capture and output sharpening!
« Last Edit: March 10, 2019, 01:37:58 pm by digitaldog »
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

adias

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #37 on: March 10, 2019, 02:05:26 pm »

Maybe you should move on then. No great loss.  :o

"It is better to debate a question without settling it than to settle a question without debating it". Joseph Joubert
Of course, the debate was settled with actual facts, LR has both capture and output sharpening!

This is insane! I said that Lr obviously has capture and creative and output/printing. I said its many times. I also said that if Lr was only used as a raw converter without touching the sharpen lever capture would be the sharpen used. It's all good!
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digitaldog

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #38 on: March 10, 2019, 03:28:14 pm »

This is insane! I said that Lr obviously has capture and creative and output/printing. I said its many times.
Try again before existing, post #3:
adias  wrote: In Lr there is no capture sharpening.
Perhaps you respond better to images than text:
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Andrew Rodney
Author “Color Management for Photographers"

adias

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Re: Capture sharpening in Lightroom
« Reply #39 on: March 10, 2019, 03:53:30 pm »

Try again before existing, post #3:
adias  wrote: In Lr there is no capture sharpening.
Perhaps you respond better to images than text:

Insane and insulting again! I said there is no capture sharpening [per se] because in Lr an image can be fully edited and sharpened for taste.

I made a comment on semantics. You disagree and it is fine. But for the end user Lr does capture and creative sharpening as a minimum. I call it capture only if the user loads an image in Lr, does nothing to it (as far as sharpening - using the default) and passing it to PS for creative sharpening and further output/printing sharpening.

I hope that what I meant is clearer. In retrospect not worth the effort, but I owe it to the silent readers. ;)
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