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Author Topic: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?  (Read 13441 times)

Mac Mahon

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2019, 08:18:18 pm »

Should be the opposite and I believe that iMac is introducing dithering to 'hide' the true results.
Here's something interesting.  If I choose to mirror the displays (which I wouldn't normally do) the banding shows up on the iMac too!

If it is dithering that's rescuing the IMac display in normal dual screen use, then some component in the system is less than optimal. 
The system report tells me I'm running "Radeon Pro 580 8192 MB graphics" card but I don't know how I'd tell whether it is "a 10-bit" card (can't find anything intelligible to me in that respect on the spec. sheet)

I've got the feeling I'm out of my (bit) depth!
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GWGill

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2019, 08:30:34 pm »

Hmmm.  I'm seeing no banding on my iMac screen, but quite visible banding on the attached PA241W.
Perhaps the iMac is dithering, while PA241W is not. The dithering adds noise which may cover up 8 bit quantization.
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Mac Mahon

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2019, 09:17:04 pm »

Here's something interesting.  If I choose to mirror the displays (which I wouldn't normally do) the banding shows up on the iMac too!

If it is dithering that's rescuing the IMac display in normal dual screen use, then some component in the system is less than optimal. 
The system report tells me I'm running "Radeon Pro 580 8192 MB graphics" card but I don't know how I'd tell whether it is "a 10-bit" card (can't find anything intelligible to me in that respect on the spec. sheet)

I've got the feeling I'm out of my (bit) depth!

For what this is worth (and I'm not confident it is) the system report alleges that both the iMac and the NEC are "30-bit color" which I take to mean 10 bits per channel.

But Andrew's test picture was supposed not to show banding in a 10-bit setup and it clearly does on the PA241W screen.   I'm wondering now (5yrs in) whether I set it up incorrectly?

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digitaldog

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2019, 09:20:32 pm »

For what this is worth (and I'm not confident it is) the system report alleges that both the iMac and the NEC are "30-bit color" which I take to mean 10 bits per channel.

But Andrew's test picture was supposed not to show banding in a 10-bit setup and it clearly does on the PA241W screen.   I'm wondering now (5yrs in) whether I set it up incorrectly?
Your report is what I'd expect to see for a high bit path.
You did examine the document at 100% (1:1) but still saw banding?
What connections are you using from the PA?
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Mac Mahon

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2019, 10:35:47 pm »

Your report is what I'd expect to see for a high bit path.
You did examine the document at 100% (1:1) but still saw banding?
What connections are you using from the PA?
Doh!
No.  I was not looking at 100%   :(
When I do, there is no banding!
Thanks Andrew.  I thought I had been a muppet, but not quite that much!  Sorry to have wasted everyone's time.

In my (partial ) defense when I slide the image from iMac to NEC it shows at 100% on the iMac and only 50% on the NEC.  Likewise when I (now)  look at 100% on the NEC and slide the image back to the iMac it now views at 200% presumably because of the different pixel densities.

(Edited to fix deadful spelling!)
« Last Edit: February 23, 2019, 10:42:07 pm by Mac Mahon »
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dehnhaide

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2019, 11:09:13 am »

I am looking at the Quadro lineup and there are many models in that group with big price variation. Are all of them 10bit? I cannot find any related information in their spec pages. For what should I look for?

All Quadro lineup, 2012 on (at least) are 10 bits enabled. Same for FirePro lineup.


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Panagiotis

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2019, 12:42:29 pm »

All Quadro lineup, 2012 on (at least) are 10 bits enabled. Same for FirePro lineup.


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Thanks.
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aaron125

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2019, 03:01:23 pm »

A lot of my work involves repro of paintings. Always looking to improve. Building a new PC workstation now. My monitor is NEC PA271Q which apparently is a true 10bit monitor. So, looking at Nvidia graphics cards I had just planned on getting something a GTX or RTX card in the $250 - $400 range. But now I'm thinking since the monitor supports true 10bit
FYI:
Not sure if your screen actually has a ‘true’ 10bit display panel as the NEC Displays site states that actually their 10bit panels are in fact “8bit+FRC” (frame rate control) panel which means that it is essentially approximating a 10bit display as explained on the Puget Systems website. In short, if a pixel is supposed to be showing a value of 101 but can physically only show levels 100 and 104, then the panel will display level 100 for 75% of the time and level 104 for 25% of the time. It changes between these values fast enough to fool the human vision system so that we believe we’re seeing level 101 in much the same way as a bunch of still images shown at 24+fps will fool our vision system into believing that we’re seeing a movie/moving image.
NEC Display Solutions-Technologies
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Roscolo

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2019, 03:47:55 pm »

FYI:
Not sure if your screen actually has a ‘true’ 10bit display panel as the NEC Displays site states that actually their 10bit panels are in fact “8bit+FRC”
NEC Display Solutions-Technologies

I definitely need to confirm with NEC that the PA271Q is true 10bit, but NEC does say, "It features true 10-bit color with a 14-bit 3D LUT for impeccable accuracy and supports all professional color spaces..." so I'm guessing that means what it says.

https://www.necdisplay.com/about/press-release/nec-display-updates-popular-professional-desktop-d/797


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Roscolo

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2019, 03:53:01 pm »

Looking at the Quadro P2000 and the Quadro P4000, most folks getting a workstation card just for 10bit color in Photoshop seem to opt for the P2000 at about $300 less than the P4000.
Using the card essentially for that purpose, anyone with more knowledge of these cards know if the P4000 has any big advantage over the P2000? I see more CUDA cores, and the P2000 is 5GB RAM while the P4000 is 8GB RAM. Not sure if those specs add up to the P4000 having any big real world advantage.
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digitaldog

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #30 on: February 24, 2019, 03:53:43 pm »

I definitely need to confirm with NEC that the PA271Q is true 10bit, but NEC does say, "It features true 10-bit color with a 14-bit 3D LUT for impeccable accuracy and supports all professional color spaces..." so I'm guessing that means what it says.

https://www.necdisplay.com/about/press-release/nec-display-updates-popular-professional-desktop-d/797
It is a high bit panel. I own one.
And there's this:
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aaron125

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #31 on: February 24, 2019, 04:04:48 pm »

I suppose it all depends on what one means when they state/say/claim a monitor is a ‘true’ 10bit display. IMHO an 8bit+FRC panel is not a true 10bit display/panel as it specifically states that it’s an 8bit panel. The fact that it uses FRC to dither or approximate a 10bit panel to me is not actually 10bit at all. True 10bit panels can physically display all 1024 levels individually at request. They don’t need to swap between two different levels fast enough to fool us into seeing a particular level. Eizo has a white paper about this very topic and the difference between panels which can physically display all 1024 levels individually and without swapping between two different levels to fool the eye. I’ll see if I can find it.

Either way, if a panel has to resort to using some sort of ‘trickery’ to allow us to see 10bit levels, in my books, that certainly isn’t a true 10bit display. Maybe NEC should call it a true 8bit panel which uses visual trickery to approximate a 10bit display? Because that’s what it actually is, and this is what NEC states on their own website, not from some review or someone’s opinion.

Just my 2c worth...


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digitaldog

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #32 on: February 24, 2019, 04:06:37 pm »

There is no trickery AFAIK, and SpectraView's have provided a true high bit panel for many years.
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aaron125

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #33 on: February 24, 2019, 04:09:40 pm »

There is no trickery AFAIK, and SpectraView's have provided a true high bit panel for many years.
How can you say that when NEC themselves state that the panel is actually an 8bit panel? The fact that it uses FRC to approximate a 10bit display also means that it in fact isn’t a 10bit panel. If it didn’t use FRC, would you say it’s still a 10bit display? Even though the panel is physically only an 8bit panel?


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digitaldog

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2019, 04:15:49 pm »

How can you say that when NEC themselves state that the panel is actually an 8bit panel? The fact that it uses FRC to approximate a 10bit display also means that it in fact isn’t a 10bit panel. If it didn’t use FRC, would you say it’s still a 10bit display? Even though the panel is physically only an 8bit panel?


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Well I can ping the PM who posts here sometimes.
What panel states otherwise? The spec's state true 10 bit.
Unless they are doing dither tricks like Apple (and I don't think so because in the past, prior to Mac OS having high bit support, my test file showed tiny banding on older SpectraViews), now it's as smooth as a babies behind.
The test file is however absolutely smooth now. And that's what I think counts.

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aaron125

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #35 on: February 24, 2019, 04:25:42 pm »

I know Eizo produces medical panels which have actual 12bit physically displayable panels. They’re greyscale panels but can actually display the full 4096 levels, individually and physically display each and every one. These displays don’t need to rely on any form of FRC or other type of trickery, dither, whatever one wants to call it when FRC is needed to approximate a higher bit depth. If a panel actually was truly whatever bit depth it claims to be then it obviously would not need to rely on anything to display those individual levels. Just the same as many cheapo screens are now only 6bit+FRC to claim that they’re an 8bit panel.

If a company themselves actually state in their own website (I’m referring to what NEC state on their site) that some display they sell is xbit+FRC, that there is the proof that the panel is not in fact truly a higher bit depth panel. If it were, it obviously wouldn’t have to rely on any form of frame rate control or other means of dithering or approximating a higher bit depth.


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digitaldog

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #36 on: February 24, 2019, 04:28:14 pm »

https://www.nec-display-solutions.com/p/download/v/507125203e399847997f15cf322c1ef6/cp/Products/Shared/Brochures/Brochures_Desktop/PA-Series-Displays/PDF-PASeries.pdf?fn=PASeries.pdf
Pretty clear about this panel's bit depth and this is the previous generation of the PA271Q. Now maybe the 272W (which I also own) is a 'true, true' 10-bit panel and the replacement isn't but I kind of doubt it.
More importantly, there is no banding on the banding test file.

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dehnhaide

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #37 on: February 24, 2019, 04:29:45 pm »


If a company themselves actually state in their own website (I’m referring to what NEC state on their site) that some display they sell is xbit+FRC, that there is the proof that the panel is not in fact truly a higher bit depth panel.

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Indeed ... Some displays might be 8bit+FRC and PA271Q might not be part of that "some"! Are we ok with basic logic?
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digitaldog

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #38 on: February 24, 2019, 04:33:08 pm »

Well all the display makers of high bit output tell us their displays can produce billions of colors. That is of course rubbish if you understand the difference between numbers and colors.
Again, what matters is the utter lack of banding seen on-screen with a full high bit path (display, video card, OS, app) that isn't the case when one or more items isn't.
None of us can even see 16.7 million colors.
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degrub

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Re: Quadro card - 10bit - worth it?
« Reply #39 on: February 24, 2019, 04:34:54 pm »

Looks like there may be a mix - perhaps it depends on the input used ?
From page 2 of the link, third paragraph.

"
The PA Series employs the latest 10-bit (or 8-bit + FRC) grayscale control and
processing electronics, which, when aligned with the wide colour gamut RGB
colour filters, allows over a billion individual colours to be displayed. This 10-bit
colour capability is best taken advantage of when using the latest DisplayPort
video connector, and 14-bit LUT to ensure smooth and graded colour and
grayscale spectral distributions.
Experience the very best in colour image quality with the latest generation of state
of the art 10-bit AH-IPS technology, with exceptionally wide viewing angle, widest
colour gamut available (108.6% AdobeRGB colour space) and absence of colour
shift. The true benefit of a wide colour gamut displays is particularly visible when
combined with a 10-bit panel, since potential colour banding or visible grayscale
steps are eliminated.
"
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