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Author Topic: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...  (Read 2843 times)

Dan Wells

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Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« on: February 14, 2019, 01:33:45 am »

Since Canon has been releasing relatively low-end EOS-R bodies with higher-end lenses, they just pulled the weirdest decision I've seen yet. The new EOS-RP's kit lens uses an adapter.

They kit the $1300 EOS-RP with a relatively inexpensive 24-105 f3.5-5.6 IS STM lens, which would be a very appropriate choice for a $1300 body, except that it is an EF lens!!! Come on Canon, it would have been easy enough to do an RF version of that lens... Even if Canon had "cheated" and simply taken the EF lens, added an extra ~20mm to the back and changed the mount ring, it would be better than supplying a non-native lens! They do offer a kit with the native 24-105 f4 lens, but it offers no discount over buying the lens separately.

This almost feels like there is a body that has been held back by production snafus! There are two RF lenses already out that are over $2000 (the 28-70 f2 and 50 f1.2), two of the six announced today almost certainly will be over $2000 (70-200 f2.8 and 85 f1.2), and two more will probably be over $2000 and if not, very close to that point (15-35 f2.8 and 24-70 f2.8). The 35mm macro is a cheap lens at $449, but is an unusual focal length for a macro lens. The 24-105 f4 is a mid-priced lens, and the 24-240 travel zoom should be cheap or mid-priced.

What's wrong with a remarkably inexpensive (for full-frame) body at $1299, a mid-priced body at $2299 and a lens lineup that has one cheap lens, two mid-priced lenses and six lenses around or over $2000? It's almost as if the body and lens design teams were given two different systems... Someone handed the lens designers a Z7 with a Canon mount and said "make lenses for this, and don't care what they cost", while handing the body design team a set of early Sony FE lenses and said "make bodies for these - we can sell them cheap".
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2019, 02:01:22 am »

This whole thing is totally puzzling.

It doesn't seem there was any product planning done here. Or something went horribly wrong with their high end body design and marketing decided to release whatever they had to avoid Nikon occupying too much space media?

Cheers,
Bernard

32BT

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2019, 02:27:58 am »

Since Canon has been releasing relatively low-end EOS-R bodies with higher-end lenses, they just pulled the weirdest decision I've seen yet. The new EOS-RP's kit lens uses an adapter.

Because that makes it easier for hobbyist "heavily" invested in lenses to switch to the new generation of cameras.
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32BT

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2019, 02:37:21 am »

This whole thing is totally puzzling.

It doesn't seem there was any product planning done here. Or something went horribly wrong with their high end body design and marketing decided to release whatever they had to avoid Nikon occupying too much space media?

Cheers,
Bernard

What are you talking about? Their strategy makes perfect sense to me so far. And yes, the timing of the news releases do seem to be targeted at dampening the Nikon news. Probably works too, considering the lenses on offer. That 70-200 looks impossible.

Nikon on the other hand, what are they thinking? $2300 msrp for the standard workhorse of the wedding jockey e.a.? Not to mention that the colorrendering of the sample images is appalling. I'll wait for my judgement until you shoot us some example images, but I'm not specifically impressed yet.
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phila

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2019, 03:56:54 am »

It makes sense to "follow the money" by releasing a low end R body, rather than the 'pro' body at this time. The pro body will obviously follow. As the interview with the Canon designers states. Those of us who are looking forward to the 'pro' body will just have to wait until later in the year (I assume). In my opinion it is better to wait a while and to 'be sure' Canon nails it with the 'pro' body, than to to be served up a half-arsed design sooner. I use a 1Dx and 5DSr for my work so I look forward to (hopefully) trade them in for a single body with spectacularly good optics. And the easy option to continue using my TS-E lenses etc via an adapter.

The compromise of offering the EF lens with adapter as a kit is probably a realistic compromise given that even Canon wouldn't have the production facilities to gear up for six new RF lenses AND a new low-cost RF 24-105 (at least in the short term). Plus it helps push the idea that photographers who have a lower spec full frame body and a few EF lenses can swap to the RP body and keep on using their existing EF lenses.

And I agree, that RF 70-200f2.8 looks amazing!

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2019, 04:59:36 am »

What are you talking about? Their strategy makes perfect sense to me so far. And yes, the timing of the news releases do seem to be targeted at dampening the Nikon news. Probably works too, considering the lenses on offer. That 70-200 looks impossible.

OK, you think that releasing 1kg lenses costing 3,000 US$ is a good match for 500gr bodies costing 1,300~2,000 US$? The logic escapes me.

Nikon on the other hand, what are they thinking? $2300 msrp for the standard workhorse of the wedding jockey e.a.? Not to mention that the colorrendering of the sample images is appalling. I'll wait for my judgement until you shoot us some example images, but I'm not specifically impressed yet.

2,300 US$ for a high performance 24-70 f2.8 is completely reasonable and I am sure that street price will be a bit below that.

The Sony 24-70 f2.8 GM costs 2,200 US$ one year after its release and it probably isn't as good.

Cheers,
Bernard

32BT

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2019, 06:02:03 am »

OK, you think that releasing 1kg lenses costing 3,000 US$ is a good match for 500gr bodies costing 1,300~2,000 US$? The logic escapes me.

Considering the importance of lensperformance vs capture device, that sounds very reasonable to me. The weight is not as important as the balance. That lens is released when the Canon pro body offering is likely announced as well, giving a good set of body options with brilliant lenses.
 
Considering it's Canon, one can imagine they also finally release a grip holding like 10 batteries to compensate for their batterylife, which solves the weight problem... ;-)   ;-)  ;-)



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Dan Wells

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2019, 11:03:33 am »

The Canon 70-200 does look impossibly small - I wonder if it's a DO lens (same as Nikon's PF)?

I agree with Bernard's theory that what we're seeing here is a delayed pro body that would make all those beautiful lenses suddenly make sense. In addition, I wonder if a critical lens or two that make sense on the RP body (and even as low-end options on the EOS-R) got delayed? If we had one more body and it was fully 5D mkIV level or higher, and one more lens (a 24-85 f 3.5-4.5 or 24-105 f3.5 5.6 that didn't use an adapter), the whole R system would make a lot more sense. Sure, there would be more lower-end lenses yet to come, but it would look like an ambitious rollout instead of a mismatched one.

I don't think the pricing on the Nikkor Z 24-70 f2.8 is at all out of line. Most camera manufacturer 24-70 f2.8s are around the same price (although both Canon and Nikon have older non-IS designs that are several hundred dollars cheaper). Canon doesn't offer a newer IS lens for the EF mount - their IS standard zooms are f4. If and when the Canon 24-70 f2.8  IS comes out for EF, I'm almost sure it'll be $2200-$2300 (as the RF lens probably will be when its price is released)
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Rado

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2019, 11:22:58 am »

I think Canon's strategy is currently targeted at people who are already Canon users. Add the R(P) as the 2nd/3rd body (or swap for your existing DSLR) and keep using what you already have. The lack of (cheap) RF lenses is not a big deal if you have a bag of EF lenses. I own a R and don't have any RF lenses yet, my EF collection covers all my needs so far. Not to mention that once the adapters with filters are released you might actually prefer to keep using EF lenses in some cases.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2019, 11:35:54 am »

I think it makes sense:

1. Launch entry level R camera at really low price to gain market share. Canon have always done this successfully - just look at the Rebel series. The fact that they launch it with an EF kit lens is even better - entice EF users to get a taste of Canon MILC FF on the cheap!

2. At the same time, announce pro .lenses and confirm that a pro body will be released - all YE 2019.

HywelPhillips

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2019, 12:46:41 pm »

Yeh, it makes sense to me too, especially if they need time and iterations and lessons learned from the R and RP to get the pro model right.

They are producing some lenses which will sell the system all by themselves - I'm already intrigued and I'm fully invested in Sony at this point. But an 85 f/1.2 with apodisation, the 28-70 f/2 zoom, the fast fifty and that really short 70-200 look really tempting. Especially as my regular lens reviewers are really starting to rave about the quality of those first few lenses.

If you want a high quality do everything lens, there 's already a 24-105 f/4 native.

If you want something cheaper, why bother making a cheap lens for a system where the lenses are CLEARLY aiming to be top-end? I don't see the point of diluting the lens lineup.

An EF adaptor and a kit lens will do just fine for now and for the next few years while they sell the system on the basis of the excellence of the new R lenses.

There's probably very little to be gained in a native redesign of bottom end kit lenses for the mirrorless format anyway- the advantages of the mount are clearly what you can do with it, not how cheaply you can build the lenses.

I'm watching for the pro body very carefully, because of the lenses. If I weren't trying to have cheap year, I'd be picking up an RP now to have a play with my existing EF lenses, and maybe treat myself to that 28-70 f/2.

It's the most interesting set of announcements Canon have made for me in a LONG time. The one thing that makes me see sense and not jump in is the video specs- no DPAF in 4K is a killer for me. The APS-C crop in 4K wouldn't be an issue. But the killer video feature Canon have is DPAF, which this camera doesn't have in the resolution I'd want to be shooting in.


I think it highlights that Canon really are struggling with sensor tech. Apparently they admit that they can't cool the sensor enough to achieve 4K/30p let along the 4K/60p which will be the go-to spec for the next round of cameras from other manufacturers. It probably also goes a long way to explaining the absence of IBIS in the R series- if they're already struggling with heat, no wonder they can't contemplate floating the sensor for now.

I like the results of my Sonys and Hasselblad and RED, but I still do pine for the ergonomics and overall together-ness that Canons used to have. I was a Canon user for the first 10+ years of my professional career and I'm still kinda rooting for them to release a camera which gives me an excuse to go back to shooting with one, at least some of the time.

The RP isn't it, but it is WAAAAY closer than anything else they currently make. It would be a gateway drug into the expensive lenses, to be downgraded to a backup body when the proper pro body comes along.

Cheers, Hywel
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phila

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2019, 05:06:34 pm »

It should also be noted that Canon has, for the first time, officially stated that future bodies (although not necessarily all) will have IBIS.

faberryman

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2019, 05:23:20 pm »

What photograph can you take with an EOS RP that you can't take with your existing Canon camera and lenses? This is just gear acquistion for the sake of gear acquisition.
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Christopher

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2019, 06:25:54 pm »

Pence again the only interesting part was the 70-200 and whether the images are correct. It Looks super small.


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Christopher Hauser
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Rado

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2019, 07:24:08 pm »

What photograph can you take with an EOS RP that you can't take with your existing Canon camera and lenses? This is just gear acquistion for the sake of gear acquisition.
I got the R because the AF coverage and accuracy allows me shoot fast lenses wide open free from focus&recompose and actually nail focus perfectly almost every time. As a portrait shooter I've decided this is a meaningful upgrade for me. Technically, I can get the same job done with my DSLR (in worst case using the live view as a poor man's mirroless, which I have done in the past) but the speed and convenience won. From what I can tell the RP would provide similar benefits in this context.
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BJL

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2019, 11:45:42 pm »

The kit with RP body plus EF Mount adaptor is weird, but might make sense in Canon’s position with so many EF lenses and EF lens owners out there. Effectively, Canon is offering its least expensive EF amount body at $1400 (body plus adaptor) — with the bonus of forward compatibility with RF lenses as users gradually make that transition.

Didn’t a lot of people here want or predict 35mm format mirrorless bodies that maintained the established SLR lens mounts?!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 11:56:47 pm by BJL »
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Dan Wells

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #16 on: February 15, 2019, 09:08:09 pm »

Interestingly, interviews with Canon lens designers say the 70-200 is NOT a DO lens - not sure how else they got that size!!!
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alan_b

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #17 on: February 15, 2019, 09:47:26 pm »

Interestingly, interviews with Canon lens designers say the 70-200 is NOT a DO lens - not sure how else they got that size!!!

It extends from the compact storage mode to 70mm FL position, then more to 200mm (actually becomes longer in use than the current EF version).
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2019, 10:22:10 pm »

It extends from the compact storage mode to 70mm FL position, then more to 200mm (actually becomes longer in use than the current EF version).

In other words like the Nikon z kit lens. Clever design I thought
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Canon odd design choice - an ADAPTED kit lens...
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2019, 11:36:34 pm »

In other words like the Nikon z kit lens. Clever design I thought

Indeed. It makes to easy carrying.

Cheers,
Bernard
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