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Author Topic: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise  (Read 3974 times)

rabanito

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2019, 09:38:09 am »

RGB Histograms may or may not provide actual capture exposure data! Depending on what the Histogram data (raw?) is being shown:

Low rez (YouTube): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjPsP4HhHhE
High rez: http://digitaldog.net/files/Histogram_Video.mov

GREAT!!
Just two days ago I was going to ask that question and was too shy to ask
I'm joking, I always ask  ;D
But decided to wait until I digested other related info
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rabanito

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2019, 10:33:36 am »

My RAW shot is exposure optimally. I have a series of bracketed shots, so I can choose the best exposure possible. And yes, it is low noise, until I use it as a single shot in Photomatix Pro 6; even without increasing the brightness of the shadows, the noise is horrendous.

I would like to use tone mapping on single RAW images to bring out various details, but Photomatix Pro 6 is totally unusable for that because of the introduction of horrendous noise. So, let me ask again: is there a tone mapping program that does a good job on single RAW images?

Excuse my silly asking:
If one has a series of bracketed shots, why use only one of them, however optimally exposed?
Is there some advantage?
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digitaldog

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2019, 10:34:53 am »

Excuse my silly asking:
If one has a series of bracketed shots, why use only one of them, however optimally exposed?
Good question, I also suggested that approach. But it isn't the answer he wishes to hear.  ;)
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2019, 12:40:38 pm »

Photomatix, like similar programs, has several different functions. Among them RAW file conversion, combining bracketed shots, tone mapping those combined bracketed shots and tone mapping single shots. My post is specifically about single-shot tone mapping with Photomatix Pro 6.

It turns out that it does a lousy job of converting my Nikon NEF RAW files. However, its tone mapping capabilities are very impressive and I want to apply those to single shots that are not in need of multiple exposures. If you wonder why I would be interested in this, then you obviously never seriously looked at Photomatix's or similar programs' tone mapping capabilities.

Sidetracking this discussion with, for instance, smart-aleck comments about how to evaluate exposures of a series of bracketed shots, isn't very helpful and annoys the heck out of me.

Positive contributions to this thread are very welcome.
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digitaldog

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2019, 12:52:19 pm »

Sidetracking this discussion with, for instance, smart-aleck comments about how to evaluate exposures of a series of bracketed shots, isn't very helpful and annoys the heck out of me.
Not useful to you, someone who needed to learn what exposure actually is, as explained, but to others? There's this in response to my posting on Histograms and exposure:

GREAT!!
Just two days ago I was going to ask that question and was too shy to ask
I'm joking, I always ask 
But decided to wait until I digested other related info


Quote
Positive contributions to this thread are very welcome.
Multiple contributions were made, you just don't find them positive because they don't specifically state the answer you're looking for, before asking. Many of us have seen this posting agenda in the past and you seem to be at it again.
Tell us the answer you wish to hear, maybe someone will parrot it back to you.  :o
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albytastic

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2019, 12:53:19 pm »

I tried PhotoMatix and other HDR programs in the past, but finally settled on EasyHDR3 because, for me, it does everything I want especially for one-shots.

I use it more as an editing tool with an amazing range of variations, rather like  universal layer tool but without all the bother of using layers.

Of course it still increases noise which is why i now also use Topaz "JPEG to RAW" before using it because it is so powerful as a noise reducer in addition to everything else it does.

And unless I want to go OTT with it (which I don't) virtually no one has ever remarked that I am using an HDR program.
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rabanito

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2019, 01:09:45 pm »



It turns out that it does a lousy job of converting my Nikon NEF RAW files. However, its tone mapping capabilities are very impressive and I want to apply those to single shots that are not in need of multiple exposures. If you wonder why I would be interested in this, then you obviously never seriously looked at Photomatix's or similar programs' tone mapping capabilities.

Sidetracking this discussion with, for instance, smart-aleck comments about how to evaluate exposures of a series of bracketed shots, isn't very helpful and annoys the heck out of me.

Positive contributions to this thread are very welcome.

Sorry - talking for myself - I didn't mean to upset you. As a lowly newbie I just wondered if I was missing something.
Just trying to learn from the more experienced
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digitaldog

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2019, 01:24:47 pm »

Sorry - talking for myself - I didn't mean to upset you. As a lowly newbie I just wondered if I was missing something.
Just trying to learn from the more experienced
Don't apologize for asking questions and attempting to learn new stuff.
The OP has a posting history here of asking questions about problems he's having, then pushing back on any answers to the 'problems' that don't fit a predetermined response he expects. There's a paper trail to prove this but it's an agonizing read. And there's nothing in the so called forum rules that say you can't ask a question that's related to the initial question that may come about from further discussion. Like explaining what exposure really is, not what a poster incorrectly assumes it is, or how to reduce noise by optimally exposing a raw that the original poster believes is noisy.
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rabanito

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2019, 01:50:39 pm »

Don't apologize for asking questions and attempting to learn new stuff.

I don't apologize for asking questions. I profit a lot doing that  :)
Since my English is far from perfect :( and I don't like upsetting others unnecessarily, I try to explain WHY I asked
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digitaldog

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #29 on: February 07, 2019, 01:57:12 pm »

I don't apologize for asking questions. I profit a lot doing that  :)
Since my English is far from perfect :( and I don't like upsetting others unnecessarily, I try to explain WHY I asked
Your English is more than just fine, and I'm always impressed with anyone who's bilingual, something I wish I could accomplish.
Some members posting here can't be anything but upset. Annoyed is the term used. Made my day.  ;D
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #30 on: February 07, 2019, 02:45:18 pm »

Sorry - talking for myself - I didn't mean to upset you. As a lowly newbie I just wondered if I was missing something.
Just trying to learn from the more experienced

You didn't upset me one bit. No need to apologize.
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #31 on: February 07, 2019, 02:56:03 pm »

Don't apologize for asking questions and attempting to learn new stuff.
The OP has a posting history here of asking questions about problems he's having, then pushing back on any answers to the 'problems' that don't fit a predetermined response he expects. There's a paper trail to prove this but it's an agonizing read. And there's nothing in the so called forum rules that say you can't ask a question that's related to the initial question that may come about from further discussion. Like explaining what exposure really is, not what a poster incorrectly assumes it is, or how to reduce noise by optimally exposing a raw that the original poster believes is noisy.

I incorrectly assume what exposure really is? Really? I believe that my RAW file is noisy? Really? Maybe you should read up on the principle of intellectual honesty.
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rabanito

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #32 on: February 07, 2019, 02:58:14 pm »

Got it. I googled "upset" vs "annoyed".
Learned something again  :) :)
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digitaldog

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #33 on: February 07, 2019, 03:00:49 pm »

I incorrectly assume what exposure really is? Really?
Yes really. Your own text, confusing what exposure really is. I will copy and paste for you to reexamine:

Sure, with a single frame Photomatix has to dramatically increase exposure in the shadows. When I import the same single frame in PSE and increase exposure in the shadows to about the same extent, the noise is dramatically lower, so Photomatix, as I said before, amplifies the noise.
You are confused (again) between exposure and brightness!
Maybe you should read up on the principle of intellectual honesty and read up on your own mistaken text when it comes to what exposure really is.  ;)
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digitaldog

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #34 on: February 07, 2019, 03:02:44 pm »

Got it. I googled "upset" vs "annoyed".
Learned something again  :) :)
At least one person here has learned something. That's worth the effort.
Now if the OP could only understand and learn the significant difference between exposure and brightness.
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digitaldog

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #35 on: February 07, 2019, 03:05:52 pm »

I believe that my RAW file is noisy? Really?
You probably don't, despite the facts already provided to you that you'll ignore, because it isn't what you wish to hear:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=128678.msg1093833#msg1093833
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2019, 03:45:44 pm »

Yes really. Your own text, confusing what exposure really is. I will copy and paste for you to reexamine:
You are confused (again) between exposure and brightness!
Maybe you should read up on the principle of intellectual honesty and read up on your own mistaken text when it comes to what exposure really is.  ;)

Yes, guilty of using the term "exposure" for adjusting brightness, just as guilty as Adobe. Guess both Adobe and me don't understand what exposure really is.
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digitaldog

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #37 on: February 07, 2019, 04:02:05 pm »

Yes, guilty of using the term "exposure" for adjusting brightness, just as guilty as Adobe. Guess both Adobe and me don't understand what exposure really is.
Adobe engineers do, despite names for editing controls; now perhaps so do you. Perhaps.
Now onto optimal exposure and Histograms? Perhaps.
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albytastic

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #38 on: February 07, 2019, 08:29:54 pm »

Quote from: Frans Waterlander on January 20, 2019, 11:49:29 PM
"Sure, with a single frame Photomatix has to dramatically increase exposure in the shadows. When I import the same single frame in PSE and increase exposure in the shadows to about the same extent, the noise is dramatically lower, so Photomatix, as I said before, amplifies the noise."

"You are confused (again) between exposure and brightness!
Maybe you should read up on the principle of intellectual honesty and read up on your own mistaken text when it comes to what exposure really is."

If I may point out what should be an obvious fact - no "PROGRAM" can alter the exposure of an image - that is a function solely of three variables at the time the photo is taken - after that all that can happen is that the image produced can be manipulated by a program like Photomatix which AMPLIFIES the shadows or whatever up to a level to match the rest of the image depending upon the desired result.

And since the shadows have to be amplified more than other parts of the image you get more noise.

And all HDR programs produce noise for that reason.

When you combine 3 or more images where the shadows have been, in effect, over exposed, there is far less amplification needed so less noise.

But exposure is, and always has been, solely a function of the sensor, and 3 interconnected variables - light, shutter speed and aperture.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2019, 08:34:54 pm by albytastic »
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Photomatix Pro 6 single-shot tone-mapping amplifies noise
« Reply #39 on: February 07, 2019, 08:55:10 pm »

albytastic,

When I first convert my single Nikon NEF RAW file to tiff in PSE and then import that tiff file into Photomatix, I get very satisfactory tone-mapping results with noise well under control. When I import my Nikon NEF RAW file directly into Photomatix and let it do the RAW conversion, I get horrendous noise, no matter what tone mapping I apply. Apparently Photomatix does a bad job of converting Nikon NEF RAW files.
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