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Author Topic: Lumachrome process?  (Read 2339 times)

dgberg

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Lumachrome process?
« on: January 09, 2019, 02:29:02 pm »

For some time Nevada Printers have been promoting their proprietary face mounting process Lumachrome.
I know they have several ipf9400 printers which are nothing special. That leaves the paper.
Anyone know if their is really any special process here or is it a name conjured up for marketing.


What they say about their process.  Details appear to emerge in 3D from the depths of the image with the Lumachrome process thanks to the transparency layer that is infused with iridium particles and is encapsulated in a layer suspended between the white poly surface and Acrylic.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 02:40:22 pm by Dan Berg »
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digitaldog

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2019, 02:45:30 pm »

That Art Wolfe likes them, that's good.
That they use the term Giclee, not good (BS term).
That their staff photo's appears to be two well known actors  ::) , still not good. BS factor appears, (again appears) to be at the upper level. Why not ask em.


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Andrew Rodney
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2019, 02:51:05 pm »

For some time Nevada Printers have been promoting their proprietary face mounting process Lumachrome.
I know they have several ipf9400 printers which are nothing special. That leaves the paper.
Anyone know if their is really any special process here or is it a name conjured up for marketing.


What they say about their process.  Details appear to emerge in 3D from the depths of the image with the Lumachrome process thanks to the transparency layer that is infused with iridium particles and is encapsulated in a layer suspended between the white poly surface and Acrylic.

Facemounting pearlescent  paper/film to acrylic would be my guess.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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digitaldog

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2019, 02:53:52 pm »

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Andrew Rodney
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dgberg

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2019, 03:06:23 pm »

I know a fair amount about the face mounting process. I was just trying to get to the bottom of their printer and what type of film or paper they are using.
Curious if it is something special or the old fashion lip service. The video shows a transparency but all the large pieces coming out of their studio seem to have a dibond or sintra back which would destroy any advantage of a transparency print.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 03:11:45 pm by Dan Berg »
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2019, 06:32:58 pm »

I know a fair amount about the face mounting process. I was just trying to get to the bottom of their printer and what type of film or paper they are using.
Curious if it is something special or the old fashion lip service. The video shows a transparency but all the large pieces coming out of their studio seem to have a dibond or sintra back which would destroy any advantage of a transparency print.

Not exactly true. The material has a very high reflective quality not unlike FujiFlex which is deep, or at least pseudo-deep.

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jim t

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2019, 08:00:30 pm »

Does anyone know what the "bonding glue" is that White Wall uses to adhere Fuji paper to the acrylic in this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjyUB_yu4cA
I don't believe they use a film in between the print and the acrylic, do they?
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2019, 09:47:30 pm »

Does anyone know what the "bonding glue" is that White Wall uses to adhere Fuji paper to the acrylic in this video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjyUB_yu4cA
I don't believe they use a film in between the print and the acrylic, do they?

They're using silicone.
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jim t

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2019, 10:56:12 pm »

They're using silicone.

Ah yes. Any chance you know more specifically what type of silicone?

Stephen, in a previous post from 2016 you were in, someone said that inkjet quality is now superior to chromogenic lightjet prints. Could you or anyone with experience elaborate on this?
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2019, 05:18:46 am »

Ah yes. Any chance you know more specifically what type of silicone?

Stephen, in a previous post from 2016 you were in, someone said that inkjet quality is now superior to chromogenic lightjet prints. Could you or anyone with experience elaborate on this?

I guess if you ask around in the silicon glue manufacturing world someone might know what is used or what should be the best type. I doubt anyone using the silicon face mount process succesfully is willing to tell. Whitewall does not use the Diasec media it seems. Diasec patent is no longer valid but Wilcovak in The Netherlands more or less gives the teaching/support/license for the Diasec method to other companies. Whitewall must have done some R&D to get its process working but I get the impression it uses chromogenic prints only and no inkjet prints are face mounted that way. The old way more or less. Wilcovak does it for inkjet media too. RC papers can be mounted directly, matte art papers first are laminated and then face mounted.

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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Wayne Fox

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2019, 12:14:34 pm »

That Art Wolfe likes them, that's good.
According to their website Art used their standard facemounts using FujiFlex (same process as Peter Lik).  "LUMACHROME Prints are a greatly improved print compared to the Fuji Flex creations we made for Art Wolfe in the Natural Wonders Gallery in NYC and Las Vegas.” To me that’s a really unusual case of “name dropping”, as Art apparently found the standard ones to his liking.  Perhaps the new process was created after they did this work for Art so they were just trying to message that despite how great those prints looked the new process is even better.

I know a fair amount about the face mounting process. I was just trying to get to the bottom of their printer and what type of film or paper they are using.
Curious if it is something special or the old fashion lip service. The video shows a transparency but all the large pieces coming out of their studio seem to have a dibond or sintra back which would destroy any advantage of a transparency print.
If you watch the slide show it says the backer is “white RC paper base”. No clue what that is, maybe they have a source for uncoated paper that is to makephoto or inkjet papers (or maybe they just process some photo paper without printing anything on it). The process is puzzling to me, as it would involve laminating not once but twice.  I assume printed ink side is laminated to this surface, which would make it possible to use  silicone to seal it to the acrylic. when using silicone on inkjet I’ve heard you have to seal the ink with some type of laminate.

They're using silicone.
Just curious how you know that. as I mentioned that might explain why they print a transparency the way they do, but this process really hasn’t been used in the U.S. like it has in other places like Europe.

I have seen their prints, and other than it being a inkjet process so perhaps better gamut and detail in the printing process, the overall look isn’t any different to me than other well done face mounted prints. I think the bonding to the acrylic is the secret to the depth and clarity associated with face mounting.  I’ve mounted the same image from an Epson printer on Epson Semi matte paper and on Fuji Flex, and side by side the only differences are those that would expect in gamut and detail.  As far as richness and saturation, they look pretty much identical.
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2019, 12:22:21 pm »

Just curious how you know that.


Hi Wayne,

About silicone...

You're confusing my reply to a post asking about WhiteWall with Nevada Art Printers.

Yeah, the thread sort of got sidetracked.
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2019, 12:45:10 pm »

Ah yes. Any chance you know more specifically what type of silicone?
The “permanently elastic” type, they say at their website.  ;)

Stephen, in a previous post from 2016 you were in, someone said that inkjet quality is now superior to chromogenic lightjet prints. Could you or anyone with experience elaborate on this?
In the context of this thread about Lumachrome, I believe these prints are often (if not always) superior to a chromogenic Lightjet print that is face mounted. Keep in mind we’re talking about a specific shop along with a specific presentation. The Lumachrome should have a greater color gamut and should have greater color stability in the long run. One might say the Lumachrome is sharper than a Lightjet. If both are aligned properly along with using a good file, it’s a non issue IMO. That being said…

Personally, I would not hesitate to use or purchase a face mounted chromogenic print for those reasons above. The older process has all the color gamut that I, personally, am looking for 99% of the time. In fact, sometimes I’ve seen a chromogenic on display SCREAM COLOR TOO LOUDLY at me. If I’m to live with a display it needs to be easy-on-the-eyes with a certain aesthetic. Also, a chromogenic print will also have plenty of color stability for me and to whomever it may get handed down to in my circles.
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jim t

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #13 on: January 10, 2019, 04:55:25 pm »

I found that originally, at least for the Diasec method, they used Gurisil No. 575.0 as the adhesive. Personally, all proprietary talk aside, I believe that any current optically clear, uv-resistant, vulcanizable silicone would work for face mounting.
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #14 on: January 10, 2019, 06:42:33 pm »

I found that originally, at least for the Diasec method, they used Gurisil No. 575.0 as the adhesive. Personally, all proprietary talk aside, I believe that any current optically clear, uv-resistant, vulcanizable silicone would work for face mounting.

Because you seem familiar with them in the past, why do you suppose they're using a rather gooey silicone process instead of a rolled adhesive?
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Ernst Dinkla

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2019, 06:13:58 am »

I found that originally, at least for the Diasec method, they used Gurisil No. 575.0 as the adhesive. Personally, all proprietary talk aside, I believe that any current optically clear, uv-resistant, vulcanizable silicone would work for face mounting.

Martin Jürgens report. Long time ago I plowed through that. Then to check what the longevity of the mounting process was. In short; it depends .......  Since then I have met people that were involved in that kind of face mounting of inkjet papers and the conclusion is still; it depends ....... No real independent research has been done on the fade resistance properties and how art papers behave at the edges of the sandwiched layers. From experience it can go wrong with the last.

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/7785428/silicone-rubber-face-mounting-of-photographs-to-polymethyl-/53

Met vriendelijke groet, Ernst

http://www.pigment-print.com/spectralplots/spectrumviz_1.htm
March 2017 update, 750+ inkjet media white spectral plots
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dgberg

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2019, 08:25:03 am »

Making a little progress, maybe? Here is a quote from a website that sells his face mounts. Now what the heck is Lumachrome metallic paper? Doesn't sound like a film although the picture posted by Digital Dog looks like a film. I am highly skeptical that it is anything proprietary. If it comes out as an off the shelf offering that pretty much kills the proprietary angle. To get someone to manufacture a special paper just for you I would guess is nearly impossible. Especially just several dozen rolls year.
I just want to get a sample of the paper to experiment with for our face mounting workshops. Thats all. I have no concrete data but my impression is that it is an off the shelf product given a fancy name to increase the value. I am just a skeptic by nature. That being said the product is top notch!

"This high quality printing product uses Lumachrome Metallic photo paper to produce very crisp, highly saturated colors (even more than metal prints). The Lumachrome paper is mounted directly behind a clear (1/8″ or 1/4″) acrylic sheet, and a three-dimensional effect is created. The light comes off the image and internally reflects through the acrylic material, creating the effect."

Stephen Ray

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2019, 10:14:24 am »

I just want to get a sample of the paper to experiment with for our face mounting workshops.

I'm wondering if I understand correctly that you're asking the internet to help you capitalize on another's manufacturing process, that is possibly proprietary, by providing workshops so others can learn how to produce the same product?

Twenty years ago I asked Pantone for their collaboration in a particular software project and they needed $20,000 as the first initial installment to begin NDA agreements. They also required I attend a developers workshop.

Nevada Art Printers offers workshops, just so you know.

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dgberg

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #18 on: January 11, 2019, 11:15:50 am »

I'm wondering if I understand correctly that you're asking the internet to help you capitalize on another's manufacturing process, that is possibly proprietary, by providing workshops so others can learn how to produce the same product?

Twenty years ago I asked Pantone for their collaboration in a particular software project and they needed $20,000 as the first initial installment to begin NDA agreements. They also required I attend a developers workshop.

Nevada Art Printers offers workshops, just so you know.

I absolutely am, why not. If it was truly proprietary don't you think it would be trademark/patented. Which leads me to believe it is not a unique process and an off the shelf paper given a faux name. Now if he spent thousands of dollars developing a special paper only to be manufactured for his process then that's a different story.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2019, 11:22:47 am by Dan Berg »
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jim t

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Re: Lumachrome process?
« Reply #19 on: January 11, 2019, 03:35:05 pm »

No real independent research has been done on the fade resistance properties and how art papers behave at the edges of the sandwiched layers.

Actually, the American Institute of conservation has put together a good video on this topic:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq80xpKzl-w&t=11s

Also, Ernst, matt prints from inkjets are easier to work with when using the Diasec method where as luster or glossy need to be laminated with a film first. Wayne had asked this question in another post a few years ago and never got a response from Miranda Smith, but she explains the process here: https://aiccm.org.au/sites/default/files/SMITHPaper.pdf

[Because you seem familiar with them in the past, why do you suppose they're using a rather gooey silicone process instead of a rolled adhesive?]
I found the patent for Diasec online and along with Ernst's link it explains a lot. I spent a few hours researching yesterday :)
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