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Author Topic: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...  (Read 5006 times)

OmerV

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #20 on: December 28, 2018, 08:13:10 pm »

There is nothing strange in the reflection. The bow of the boat is much higher than the stern, that's why you see it in the reflection.
Turn the boat 180 degree and you will see the difference

This is correct. The reflection is creating an optical illusion that hides the difference in height between the stern and the bow.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #21 on: December 28, 2018, 08:36:44 pm »

... See?

What is there to see? Three identical reflections, the only difference being vantage point? Proving what exactly?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #22 on: December 28, 2018, 08:42:29 pm »

The real question here is this: how are we able to see inside the boat in the reflection? The inside that is blocked (from the reflective surface) by not only bottom of the boat, but sides too. I am not saying it is a miracle of any kind, just that someone needs to point out some laws of optics, and reflection diagrams, illustrating how reflections are made.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2018, 08:44:56 pm »

... smoother and rougher reflection surfaces due to motion in the water. The more diffuse light, coming from rougher portions of the lake's surface, gives you the seemingly impossible "view from above" in the reflected image. Atmospheric turbulence...

Replace water with a mirror and all that doesn't matter a bit.

LesPalenik

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2018, 09:42:45 pm »

Some reflections can be indeed puzzling.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #25 on: December 28, 2018, 10:02:11 pm »

The real question here is this: how are we able to see inside the boat in the reflection? The inside that is blocked (from the reflective surface) by not only bottom of the boat, but sides too. I am not saying it is a miracle of any kind, just that someone needs to point out some laws of optics, and reflection diagrams, illustrating how reflections are made.

Because it is higher than the stern

OmerV

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #26 on: December 28, 2018, 10:36:23 pm »

Ivophoto

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Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2018, 03:04:19 am »

What is there to see? Three identical reflections, the only difference being vantage point? Proving what exactly?

See it together with the optical illusion in the painting.

Optically you see 3 identical reflections but the points of reflection are stretched over a longer surface of reflection.

The reflections are not identical. See the experiment with the paper boat.

It is first grade physics.
The law of reflection.

And telecaster is referring to the law of refraction. (Snell’s law)
Maybe, The latter can have little effect if there is pollution in the air, but is not what you see here.
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Ivophoto

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2018, 03:06:32 am »

Some reflections can be indeed puzzling.

You shouldn’t use LSD while using photoshop.
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Ivophoto

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #29 on: December 29, 2018, 03:13:05 am »

just that someone needs to point out some laws of optics, and reflection diagrams, illustrating how reflections are made.

?????
Do you read all posts, Slobodan?


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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #30 on: December 29, 2018, 03:46:18 am »

If you'd like another demonstration of the fact that a reflection is independent of what might be directly underneath the object, look at shadow's first image here and consider how you see the train.

Ivo's diagram is more or less what I had in mind. I fail to see any relevance in the Holbein, which is an exercise in perspective.

Jeremy
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #31 on: December 29, 2018, 03:51:41 am »

The light from the boat arrives at your eyes and your camera lens via a combination of smoother and rougher reflection surfaces due to motion in the water. The more diffuse light, coming from rougher portions of the lake's surface, gives you the seemingly impossible "view from above" in the reflected image. Atmospheric turbulence can also play a part in such phenomena. Light interacts strongly with "stuff." This is its job…it carries energy from thing to thing, and gets jostled around in the process.

Much of this is meaningless and that which isn't, save for the last sentence, is almost wholly wrong.

Unless warped by phenomena such as those giving rise to Fata Morgana, light travels in straight lines.

Jeremy
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Ivophoto

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Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #32 on: December 29, 2018, 04:06:33 am »


I fail to see any relevance in the Holbein, which is an exercise in perspective.

Jeremy

It is this perspective thing that confuses the viewer. You have the impression the reflected image is formed in front of the boat, but in reality it is formed over a long distance and the reason we see it in front of the boat is because this perspective thing.

The difference with the painting is that the skull is painted and not a latent image, so raising the point of view would not result in a stretched reflection of the boat but in another reflection, obeying the rule of reflection.

If the viewer would raise his point of view, he wouldn’t see the tip of the boat in the reflection because obscured by the stern.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 04:19:39 am by Ivophoto »
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Ivophoto

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #33 on: December 29, 2018, 04:10:25 am »

Much of this is meaningless and that which isn't, save for the last sentence, is almost wholly wrong.

Unless warped by phenomena such as those giving rise to Fata Morgana, light travels in straight lines.

Jeremy

There is Snell’s law, light can get refracted in air, but in this case, it has nothing   to do with the physical observation.
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Dave (Isle of Skye)

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #34 on: December 29, 2018, 09:13:02 am »

The real question here is this: how are we able to see inside the boat in the reflection? The inside that is blocked (from the reflective surface) by not only bottom of the boat, but sides too. I am not saying it is a miracle of any kind, just that someone needs to point out some laws of optics, and reflection diagrams, illustrating how reflections are made.

Absolutely Slobodan, you put it much more succinctly than I ever could and so the question remains, how the hell is this possible?



As I said earlier, the world will not stop spinning if this remains unexplained fully (to me at least), but even now with all the diagrams and suggested explanations (and thanks everyone for being willing to chip in), the answer to the question as Slobodan has now explained it more succinctly above, is still an unanswered optical conundrum I think.

The only answer I can come up with, is that reflections are to some extent more of a shallow depth and vertical, than they are deep in depth and lateral - in other words, we see and capture reflections with a bias towards the vertical and with a shallow DoF (perhaps something to do with our vertical viewpoint and independent of what f-stop we use - who knows?). So the boat in the reflection is not representative of a three dimensional object at all even though we assume it is, but is in fact a two dimensional representation of three dimensional object in the vertical plane? Therefore even though the loch surface is horizontal and below the boat at all times, the reflection it creates is vertical to our eyes and hence we can then see what we apparently shouldn't be able see, such as inside the boat?

Wow, have I gone and come up with the correct solution do you think?

I will be amazed if I have  ;D

Dave
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 09:42:21 am by Dave (Isle of Skye) »
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RSL

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #35 on: December 29, 2018, 09:28:06 am »

I dunno, Dave. "Optical conundrums" come from work in Photoshop.
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Ivophoto

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #36 on: December 29, 2018, 09:37:57 am »

Absolutely Slobodan, you put it much more succinctly than I ever could and so the question remains, how the hell is this possible?



As I said earlier, the world will not stop spinning if this remains unexplained fully (to me at least), but even now with all the diagrams and suggested explanations (and thanks everyone for being willing to chip in), the answer to the question as Slobodan has now explained it more succinctly above, is still an unanswered optical conundrum I think.

The only answer I can come up with, is that reflections are to some extent more of a shallow depth and vertical, than they are deep in depth and lateral - in other words, we see and capture reflections with a bias towards the vertical and with a shallow DoF (perhaps something to do with our vertical viewpoint and independent of what f-stop we use - who knows?). So the boat in the reflection is not three dimensional at all even though we assume it is, but is in fact a two dimensional representation of three dimensional object in the vertical plane? Therefore even though the loch surface is horizontal, the reflection it creates is vertical to our eyes and hence we can see what we apparently shouldn't be able see.

Wow, have I gone and come up with the correct solution do you think?

I will be amazed if I have  ;D

Dave

Dave

Hahahahaha.
Come on. You got a sound and scientific complete answer.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #37 on: December 29, 2018, 09:55:12 am »

...You got a sound and scientific complete answer.

Which is?

Ivophoto

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #38 on: December 29, 2018, 09:56:18 am »

Which is?

Again I have the impression loosing my time here on Lula.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Here is a Photographic Puzzle for you all...
« Reply #39 on: December 29, 2018, 09:57:30 am »

Again I have the impression loosing my time here on Lula.

You certainly are waisting mine.
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