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Author Topic: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?  (Read 3483 times)

nemophoto

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2019, 01:39:02 pm »

My 2-cents. EVF sucks in so many ways. I truly don't understand the fascination with mirrorless from a pro standpoint. I have shot professionally for over 40-years. I am far from a technophobe. I embrace technology where it helps me. Avoid it where it makes life more difficult. I have shot with a Sony (very limited). Shot with the Canon EOS R for a week. The annoyances are far greater than the helpfulness. I'm sad that Canon is jumping on the bandwagon so. In my circle of pro photographers (mostly fashion like me and a couple of sports and one "all purpose"), only one loves mirrorless (the "all-purpose" guy). There is nothing wrong with the 5D4 and much that is "right". It depends on what you shoot. If you shoot quickly and want a camera that doesn't get in the way, get a DSLR. If you shoot slowly, methodically (i.e. - landscapes, portraits), you can go with mirrorless (in your case the R since you already have Canon glass). While Bernard crapped on you for saying that Canon will eventually conquer the mirrorless world, you are actually correct. You only have to look at the inroads in sales to see that is already happening in mirrorless. Sony cameras are crap IMHO for ergonomics and menuing. They may be great for sensors, but that's only half the game. (I have yet to encounter a shooting situation where I moaned, "Oh I wish I had the DR of a Sony".)

Kev, in the end, buy the gear you think makes the most sense for you, what you own, and what you shoot.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2019, 02:08:15 pm »

While DR is clearly superior, what the OP would find to be a breakthrough with Sony for his shooting is eye AF.

Even with adapted EOS mount lenses this will work beautifully.

Yes, Sony menus are not the best but you are making a major issue out of something that at worse a very minor annoyance.

As far as ergonomics goes itís hard to find worse than the R body. Very un Canon like for that matter.

Cheers,
Bernard

nemophoto

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2019, 04:56:15 pm »


As far as ergonomics goes itís hard to find worse than the R body. Very un Canon like for that matter.


Hence why I feel the 5D4 might be the better choice. As for the eye AF, the EOS R has that as well. The menu is a real issue in my mind. Even my friend, the Sony user, said he hates the menus compared to his old Canons and said if he shot what he used to shoot, he would never have gotten rid of his Canons. The little annoyances are usually the deal breakers in the end. I think Canon was stupid to get rid of the controls that have been a part of their pro cameras since the EOS 1, or the "newer" joy stick. For me, anything that slows down my work and make me hunt for the correct setting or menu item is counter productive. I know you love your Sonys. That's great. I wouldn't own one to save my life. Interestingly, I would have switched (and even considered it briefly a while back) to a Sony a99II, but in the end still hated the EVF concept.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #63 on: January 04, 2019, 05:57:25 pm »

I mostly use Nikon (D850, D5 and Z7) and Hasselblad.

I was strongly against EVFs too until I tried the Z7 (the a7rIII is not quite as good I agree).

The only Sony I currently own is an RX100 mkV, I have zero reason to recommend Sony but the satisfaction of the needs expressed by the OP.

The Canon R implementation of eye AF isnít at the level of Sony at all. It is a marketing check mark vs a pro level feature used successfully by tens of thousands of working photographers.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: January 04, 2019, 06:07:49 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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kevs

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #64 on: January 04, 2019, 09:26:01 pm »

Good post Nemo.

Actually, I think I've decided that I will wait for the next version of the R, and get that.  What I saw in the store, the way it could so easily focus on the eye, bam, was amazing- the mark 4 did not come close.

That said: if a Mark 5 comes out before the next updated mirrorless and can do that too, I would get that.  But I "think", only the mirrorless has the ability to do eye focus that like, (am I wrong anybody?).  And of course it's not 100% DSLRS will be continued ó though many think they will continue so who knows.

Nemo: please be specific on EVF and why it sucks ( I've never owned a mirrorless so don't know EVF yet). And be specific on the other "annoyances".  I'm still open to suggestion. I agree on Menu and ergonomics -- amazing how that is not discussed that much. If it were not for that, I'd be more inclined to go to Sony..

Bernard, (now reading your post) -- you are spot on with the eye focus, amazing, I saw in live in a store, but the Canon R has it!  (branded differently). Menus -- yes I agree with Nemo, and my Canon buddy in NYC who sold his Sony and went back to Canon. If you shoot Nikon/ Canon for 25 years like he, and I do... very hard to go with Sony.


Nemo...."slows down my work"... puts it best.


Bernard, "The Canon R implementation of eye AF isnít at the level of Sony at all"
Wow.. I've never tested Sony, only tested the Canon R in a store a week ago, and it's eye focus seemed real nice.  Why is Sonys even better? Actually, I don't really want to know as I'm going to go with Sony, but you can tell us anyway. Hopefully whatever it is, Canon will match it on next update. Do you think there will be a future Canon Mark 5, and can it have eye focus like the R, or that is just a mirrorless technical feat?
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Canon 5D2/ Profoto D1s

BernardLanguillier

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #65 on: January 05, 2019, 04:30:08 am »

The Sony is superior because it work in AF-C mode, meaning on moving subjects and all human subjects are actually moving relative to the camera when you use apertures such as f1.4, which is when you really need eye AF.

The D850 and D5 have a resonnably good eye AF implementation, not at Sony level though, so it can be done to some extend on DSLRs too.

Cheers,
Bernard

Martin Kristiansen

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #66 on: January 05, 2019, 06:57:13 am »

I will post here since this is quite an active thread at the moment and I think the following might be relevant and of interest.

I have a brand new Z6 with me. Had it a few days. I friend who is in hospital at the moment bought it so it was delivered to me and he asked me to inbox it and set it up for him ready to use when he gets home next week.

I have used Nikon cameras over the years and currently have a Nikon 1. I have owned about 8 different Canon digital cameras. I currently use Sony and have a A6300, A6500 and A7r II.  I am quite brand agnostic but in the interests of honesty I really like my Sony cameras.

The Z6 EVF is fantastic. Really out of this world. I donít have a problem with the Sony EVF and i find it perfectly usable but itís not nearly as good as the A6.

I will swim upstream here and say I now like the Sony menu system and set up. After two years I am used to it and it makes sense.  I have never figured out Nikons menus. I thought the Nikon 1 was just awful and perhaps other Nikons are better but this A6 is a pain. Goes to show itís what you are used to I suppose. 

As a low profile street camera used in high risk situations the Sony APSC are far more useful than the Z6 or the Sony A7. Thatís obvious.

The much raved about ergonomics of the Nikon surprises me a little. Itís very similar to the A7 but quite frankly not as good. Why put a lcd screen on the top of the camera? I can get all that info in the viewfinder and turn it off at the press of a button if I want it gone. The hand grip is too deep on the Nikon.  I canít use the buttons next to the lens and itís an odd place to put buttons in my opinion. Iím an average size guy of 182cm with slightly broader hands and thicker fingers than normal. I canít get into that little space. The button on the top for ISO is handy but I would rather use that button for something else, can it be reprogrammed?

Anyway it s a lovely camera. If you are a Nikon user then jump at it. Itís not groundbreaking or revolutionary. Itís a nice camera with a great EVF. Iím not even going to look at a file. I know it will be great. Just like the Sony. All the files from these modern cameras are good enough for me.
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nemophoto

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #67 on: January 07, 2019, 01:23:25 pm »


Nemo: please be specific on EVF and why it sucks ( I've never owned a mirrorless so don't know EVF yet). And be specific on the other "annoyances".  I'm still open to suggestion. I agree on Menu and ergonomics -- amazing how that is not discussed that much. If it were not for that, I'd be more inclined to go to Sony..


The reason I say "EVF sucks" is because, regardless of brand that I've seen, there is perceptible lag when panning -- a sort of studder. This is because no one has yet develop a refresh rate that can reproduce the "smooth pan" of the Mark I eyeball. I find it distracting when shooting any kind of movement. If I only shot landscape of still-life, it wouldn't matter. But, 90% of my paying work is shooting on-figure models. Since I was a sports shooter initially 40-years ago, I tend to like to shoot my models walking, running, leaping. Even f they aren't doing the aforementioned, there is still some movement. Then there is the wretched shutter lag when you shoot. Sony has partially solved this, but not in a way I feel is beneficial. Sony touts 20 frames per second for their a9 without the EVF blackout/studder/freeze. It's basically shooting in "movie mode" (you figure true video/movie mode is 24fps). The problem, with that is like/want the 55ms blackout of a typical DSLR. It's just long enough for my brain to confirm I captured the shot I wanted. I will shoot a lot of leaping in the studio. I know based on experience and the confirmation of the split second blackout whether I capture "the moment". At this point in time, EVF can only freeze the image for a moment or not at all (a al a9 and the newer a7).

I have no issue with EVF as a casual shooter. I would have no issue taking the EOS R, for instance, with me for a week shooting landscapes and the occasional portrait in Ireland for a week. But for day in, day out money making work, EVF/mirrorless would drive me bonkers. Just my perspective. I know many (obviously) seem to be enamored with it, but al least most pros I know are not (again within my small circle).
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kevs

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #68 on: January 07, 2019, 03:52:35 pm »

Nemo, good post, thanks.  I have have never shot EVF yet, not even once, but when I test the Canon R mirrorless in store, I was looking through the top viewfinder, just like I do with my Mark 2..  Am I missing something here?  I was not looking at the live larger display below (that's the EVF no?).
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nemophoto

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #69 on: January 07, 2019, 06:02:30 pm »

My comments were about the eye-level finder, not the rear LCD screen. If you try panning quickly, you will see the micro-TV can't keep up, especially when you are shooting at the same time. When I used my friend's Sony a7 R II (I think it was the 2, not the 3), it was just as bad. I spoke with Canon CPS about that about a week ago. They said at the moment for them it is part of the design/function. you essentially can see the same effect when you use a DSLR's rear screen and try to do the same. The refresh rates have obviously improved over the years and for Canon it's a matter of working out the kinks on a lower level model before committing to a true pro camera (something Canon has always done in the 38 years I've used Canon).
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kevs

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #70 on: January 07, 2019, 06:15:50 pm »

Thanks Nemo, did not know EVF is both eye and back.... I'm getting either the next version of mark 5 (if they put eye focus or whatever Canon terms it)  or next version of the mirrorless of which I love the eye focues.  Bernard says it's not as  good as Sony's, but in the store, it just blew away the Mark 4's focus.

I never pan quickly and I shoot people. The most I do (is the same?), is sometimes put the Mark 2 on servo and walk in front or behind a model.  Or a model may be jumping around. But not me panning quickly. But maybe that is what you meant?
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nemophoto

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #71 on: January 08, 2019, 03:20:32 pm »

AI Servo is different from panning (though one often does still use AI Servo for pan shots). Panning with say a runner or soccer player stresses the refresh rate of the micro TV (EVF).

One other note about EVF from my experience is that judging the screen for color and contrast and exposure can be way off. This is because of the EVF exposure simulation. However, I have noticed that the color balance is frequently off in the viewfinder (Sony and Canon) under certain lighting, even if I have programmed in a custom white balance. I don't know. Some people really love mirrorless. I find little to like. I will have to force myself to use it whether I like it or not since everyone, for better or worse, seems to be jumping on that bandwagon. To me, an EVF is like looking at someone through a TV screen rather than in person (traditional view finder).
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kevs

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #72 on: January 08, 2019, 03:28:53 pm »

Nemo, one sales rep at BH said he thinks 80% according to a Canon rep that DSLRs wont be continued. But other BH and Samys sales people think Canon DLSR lines will absolutely continue.

You don't agree too much with Rockwell here:
https://kenrockwell.com/tech/mirrorless-vs-dslr.htm

Would be great to see a bIg counter article then defending DLSR.
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nemophoto

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #73 on: January 08, 2019, 04:47:34 pm »

During Photo Expo I spoke with a CPS guy at Canon. He was very much in my camp -- not a mirrorless lover. He said he thought Canon would have DSLRs for maybe 10 more years but that they were headed that way. The one thing that IS sweet about the R... the new lenses. Holy crap. I wish the new 50 had been an EF. And the new 24-70. But rumor has it that Canon won't intro any major new EF lenses in 2019. Maybe a new 1Dx. You figure cameras and lenses have long incubation periods, so much of all this has been in the pipeline for at least 2-3 years -- EOS R and RF lenses included.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #74 on: January 08, 2019, 06:14:26 pm »

And the new 24-70.

It's a 28-70...

Cheers,
Bernard

nemophoto

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #75 on: January 08, 2019, 08:21:11 pm »

Yes, I stand corrected. I'm used to 24-70 (of which I've owned 3) and am used to typing that.
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NancyP

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #76 on: January 08, 2019, 08:25:16 pm »

Wildlife photographers are looking for the same camera characteristics as pro sports photographers. Ergonomics may be particularly important. People who don't shoot action photography in all weather can put up with lousy menus, the lag in electronic viewfinders of old, awkward ergonomics, etc. There's a camera out there to suit any need. Pick the one that suits you.
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kevs

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #77 on: January 08, 2019, 08:46:14 pm »

THANKS Nemo. What is good about mirrorless lenses?
Are they sharper than the EF Ls?

And if so then wont those catch up?




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Dan Wells

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #78 on: January 12, 2019, 12:24:55 pm »

There are some changes in how easy it is to design lenses because the elimination of the mirror allows wide, shallow lens mounts. Manufacturers are taking advantage of this in different ways. Nikon's Z lenses aren't especially fast, but they are remarkably sharp for how compact they are. Canon has used the same advantage to design an f2.0 zoom (never before seen on full-frame). Sony has a bunch of sharp, fast G-master lenses.

The very best EVFs have gotten really good - due to a combination of high-resolution panels and viewfinder optics. The best I've used so far is the Nikon Z EVF, followed closely by the Fuji X-H1. Nikon claims that they have not only used the best panel they could find, but have also messed with the optics between panel and eye (and I believe them - everyone buys the same panels, but designs their own optics).

I also wouldn't say that 50 MP is out of the sweet spot for full frame, at least the 40+ MP Sony made  sensors are excellent.The best of all is probably the D850/Z7 sensor, followed closely by the A7rII/III - the difference is that the Nikon version has a true ISO 64 with extended dynamic range.  The 50 MP Canon sensor is old, and it wasn't a great performer (especially in dynamic range) when it came out.

How much farther they can push it is an open question. I suspect the forthcoming ~60 MP Sony sensor will be excellent - it uses technology that we're already seeing in other sizes, and they're performing well. Will 80 MP work, or will we start losing things other than resolution? The present 20 MP Micro 4/3 sensor, which would be 80 MP if it were full-frame, doesn't perform as well as less dense sensors - but it's not using Sony's latest sensor designs, either.
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DP

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Re: From Canon 5D2 to 4 or R or 5 or Sony ?
« Reply #79 on: January 12, 2019, 06:56:13 pm »

Canon has used the same advantage to design an f2.0 zoom (never before seen on full-frame).
please, first of all Sigma made F2.0 zooms for FF way before Canon (and for dSLR on top of that, for example  https://www.sigmaphoto.com/lenses/24-35mm-f2-dg-hsm-a ) and then "never before seen" is like "uncatchable Joe" - just because nobody bothered till somebody did (Sigma) ... while Canon's new mount might make it easier, it is absolutely not necessary to make F2.0 zooms and Sigma proves that
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