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Author Topic: Rendering in Windows "Photos"  (Read 2639 times)

rabanito

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Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« on: December 17, 2018, 02:43:46 am »

I edited a .tif file in Photoshop
Profile ProPhoto/16 bit

When I was finished I prepared the file for the web (resize/sharpen...)
Changed Mode to 8 bit
Converted Profile to sRGB
Saved the file with a new name.jpg.

Then I double-clicked on the icon and the file opened with Microsoft "Photos"
The colors were different. ("The horror, the horror"  :(  )

I opened the file now with "Galerie" and re-imported it to Lightroom as well - both just to check.
In both the file was correctly rendered.

Now when I open the files from anybody in LULA, it opens with "Photos" by default
Probably the colors are also not right
And maybe I'm not the only one.

OR: I am doing something wrong in my workflow?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 03:28:03 am by rabanito »
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TonyW

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2018, 04:05:16 am »

Easiest explanation and cure.  Windows Photo is not a colour managed application, best to just simply ignore it! 

You will need to associate your JPEG etc with another default program to prevent opening with Photo.

In theory the conversion to sRGB should have been OK, but who knows what other gremlins crept into the workflow
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rabanito

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2018, 05:40:37 am »

Easiest explanation and cure.  Windows Photo is not a colour managed application, best to just simply ignore it! 


Thank you Tony.
I'd never thought of that and just opened pictures with the default Windows application.
I was very confused, must confess. And it never crossed my mind to open files from the Internet with Photoshop or the like :)

BTW after doing some detective work I found a thread in this very forum, from April 2017, in which you explained the same thing.

I changed the default to Photo Viewer now, looks better.
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Ethan Hansen

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2018, 12:41:16 pm »

If you are working with a computer that does not have a color managed photo viewer installed, just open the file in a browser. Chrome, Firefox, and Edge are all color managed.

digitaldog

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #4 on: December 17, 2018, 12:43:36 pm »

In theory the conversion to sRGB should have been OK, but who knows what other gremlins crept into the workflow
Not really so. Non color managed applications have no idea what sRGB means, has zero idea about the conditions of the display via a profile. And for those using a wide gamut display, an awful outcome.

sRGB urban legend & myths Part 2
In this 17 minute video, I'll discuss some more sRGB misinformation and cover:
When to use sRGB and what to expect on the web and mobile devices
How sRGB doesn't insure a visual match without color management, how to check
The downsides of an all sRGB workflow
sRGB's color gamut vs. "professional" output devices
The future of sRGB and wide gamut display technology
Photo print labs that demand sRGB for output

High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/sRGBMythsPart2.mp4[/font]
Low resolution on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyvVUL1gWVs

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Ethan Hansen

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #5 on: December 17, 2018, 12:50:18 pm »

Not really so. Non color managed applications have no idea what sRGB means, has zero idea about the conditions of the display via a profile. And for those using a wide gamut display, an awful outcome.

Unless you pine for the days of E100VS!

rabanito

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2018, 02:03:49 pm »

Not really so. Non color managed applications have no idea what sRGB means, has zero idea about the conditions of the display via a profile. And for those using a wide gamut display, an awful outcome.



You mean it should be better not to convert the file to sRGB even for the web?
Sorry, making sure that I understand.
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Ethan Hansen

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2018, 02:13:53 pm »

Not putting words into Andrew's keyboard, but you typically do want to convert everything for the web to sRGB. HP and Microsoft created sRGB in 1996 as a color space that kinda-sorta emulated what low end CRT monitors natively displayed. Through inertia more than anything else, common monitors have gamuts that are closer to sRGB than anything else. The majority of Windows applications do not pay attention to embedded color profiles. Image data are thrown at the video driver, displaying however they come out. Converting images to sRGB and embedding the profile (except in tiny images where page load time is critical) gives the best hope that your work will appear close to how you intended.

Wide gamut displays are another matter. Images in sRGB appear hugely oversaturated on wide gamut displays without color management. There isn't anything you can do here. Convert to Adobe RGB and while graphics look OK-ish on unmanaged wide gamut monitors, the majority of people will wonder why your images are so undersaturated and washed out.

TonyW

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2018, 02:21:03 pm »

Not really so. Non color managed applications have no idea what sRGB means, has zero idea about the conditions of the display via a profile. And for those using a wide gamut display, an awful outcome. ...
I guess my choice of wording i.e. non colour managed application is incorrect?

AFAIK Windows Photos is not colour managed in the sense that it just does not understand/ignores embedded profiles and any image data is treated as sRGB regardless and displayed using the monitor profile (IF enabled in the Windows Colour Management dialogue Your own profile).

And yes using a wide gamut display I can confirm makes for a less than stellar result 
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 02:25:21 pm by TonyW »
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digitaldog

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 02:56:27 pm »

You mean it should be better not to convert the file to sRGB even for the web?
Sorry, making sure that I understand.
All images should have an embedded profile. Color managed applications understand the scale of the RGB values and understand the display profile to produce a preview.
IF you have a color managed application, browser or otherwise, the embedded profile is understood. If not, sRGB is a meaningless concept. What you shouldn't do is use non color managed browsers IF you care about color appearance. Posting sRGB on the web being viewed by non color managed browsers is the best of a bad situation but none the less, as you'd see in the video, it doesn't ensure a match and on wide gamut displays, it's a worse situation than if a wider gamut (Adobe RGB (1998)) image were viewed without color management.
Bottom line again: don't view images without color management.
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rabanito

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2018, 04:12:25 am »

Well, the answers to this topic (and not only this one) makes my 1$ a month worthwile.
I'm surprised how much I've learned in the short time I've been in LULA.
Thanks, friends!
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Jack Hogan

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2018, 05:03:28 am »

If you are working with a computer that does not have a color managed photo viewer installed, just open the file in a browser. Chrome, Firefox, and Edge are all color managed.

You are kidding, right?  Don't know about the other two, but Chrome is definitely not color managed out of the box.

Jack
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rasworth

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2018, 09:40:31 am »

The only W10 browser I've found that truly color managed, including proper rendering of pro photo images, is Firefox.  Didn't occur out of the box, required a setting.

Richard Southworth
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TonyW

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2018, 12:02:42 pm »

If you are working with a computer that does not have a color managed photo viewer installed, just open the file in a browser. Chrome, Firefox, and Edge are all color managed.
Ethan, are you sure about MS Edge as it does not appear to be colour managed on my Win 10 system - is there a switch?. 

Firefox, Chrome and Opera all appear to be managing a Prophoto image without issue but MS Edge and IE do not (horrible garish on wide gamut monitor)
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2018, 01:50:08 pm »

You are kidding, right?  Don't know about the other two, but Chrome is definitely not color managed out of the box.

Jack

Chrome now (at least on Windows 10) is fully colour managed.

Here a couple of links for testing:

The following link from color.org will let you test if your browser supports v2 & v4 profiles (in firefox you need to change the default configuration to fully support v4)

http://www.color.org/version4html.xalter


The following link lets you test your browser for profiles with LUTs:

http://displaycal.net/icc-color-management-test/


Based on the previous links, Chrome and Firefox fully support colour management while Edge does it partially (it does not support LUTs)

Ethan Hansen

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2018, 04:48:50 pm »

Chrome became fully color managed for both matrix and LUT profiles sometime earlier this year. Stock unmodified Edge works with images having matrix profiles or LUT profiles with fallback matrices. In other words, embed sRGB and your web images will display correctly on calibrated and profiled monitors.

fdisilvestro

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #16 on: December 20, 2018, 06:34:34 pm »

In other words, embed sRGB and your web images will display correctly on calibrated and profiled monitors.

In my experience there is still something wrong with Edge, colours look too saturated in wide gamut displays.

Dave Rosser

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2018, 05:41:24 am »

Chrome now (at least on Windows 10) is fully colour managed.

Here a couple of links for testing:

The following link from color.org will let you test if your browser supports v2 & v4 profiles (in firefox you need to change the default configuration to fully support v4)

http://www.color.org/version4html.xalter


The following link lets you test your browser for profiles with LUTs:

http://displaycal.net/icc-color-management-test/


Based on the previous links, Chrome and Firefox fully support colour management while Edge does it partially (it does not support LUTs)
Well according to those links the browser on my kindle fire is fully colour managed 8) .
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Jack Hogan

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2018, 10:01:53 am »

Chrome now (at least on Windows 10) is fully colour managed.

Chrome became fully color managed for both matrix and LUT profiles sometime earlier this year.

Do figures 3 and 4 here look about equally bright to you with your browser of choice?  They should but they don't with my default Chrome setup in W10.  Figure 3 is encoded with sRGB gamma and 4 with linear gamma, both properly tagged via Photoshop (v2).    Amusingly, when editing the page in Chrome under WordPress, WP properly color manages both images and displays them correctly at about the same brightness.  But once they are published, they are just in Chrome's hands and it apparently does not know what to do with the tags.

Jack
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 10:12:29 am by Jack Hogan »
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TonyW

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Re: Rendering in Windows "Photos"
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2018, 10:53:09 am »

Do figures 3 and 4 here look about equally bright to you with your browser of choice?  They should but they don't with my default Chrome setup in W10.  Figure 3 is encoded with sRGB gamma and 4 with linear gamma, both properly tagged via Photoshop (v2).    Amusingly, when editing the page in Chrome under WordPress, WP properly color manages both images and displays them correctly at about the same brightness.  But once they are published, they are just in Chrome's hands and it apparently does not know what to do with the tags.

Jack
Interesting, Figure 3 and 4 in your link match in Firefox and MS Edge and MS IE 11.  Not in Chrome or Opera.  In Windows 10
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