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Author Topic: Phase One IQ4 150: Alpa Schneider 180 APO-Symmar vs. Rodenstock Alpar 180mm  (Read 2267 times)

Tadmor

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Is there a real-world difference, in terms of image quality, between Rodenstock ALPA HR ALPAR 5.6 180 MM, and Alpa Schneider 180mm f/5.6 APO-Symmar, when used with Phase One IQ3 100?  Other than the obvious differences in image circle size, weight and price.  Thanks!
« Last Edit: December 18, 2018, 01:31:49 am by Tadmor »
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Tadmor

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I asked Drew Altdoerffer, Product Manager at Phase One, if he has an answer to my question; Drew most kindly responded (shared with permission):

"With regard to the question, is there a difference between the two lenses… most definitely yes, there is.

Both lenses are excellent lenses, but each has its own pros & cons. The image quality difference is easiest to see when comparing the lenses on a Front Side Illuminated (FSI) sensor like that found in the IQ3 100MP Trichromatic.

However, with the IQ4 150MP, due to the new BSI Sensor, that difference becomes much less. Ultimately, with the BSI sensor of the IQ4 150MP you’re down to technical differences that you can clearly see on a MTF spec sheet (Rodenstock wins) or pixel peeping diagnosis. In my opinion, for my work, the differences don’t translate to the real world unless you’re planning on doing significant movements or are looking for absolute technical precision. A full frame 645 BSI sensor is a whole different ball game when it comes to technical camera use, and I would always recommend you test the results before you buy a specific lens."

Thanks Drew  :)  This is good news.

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dchew

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I think it will be tough to find someone who has direct experience with both lenses on the newer digital sensors, so Drew is right in the end: you will probably have to compare them yourself.

With all due respect to Drew, that sounds like a generic response to Rodenstock (Rodi) vs Schneider (SK) lenses, how the wide-angle end of their designs are different and how those differences are (to some degree) lessened by the new IQ4 150 BSI design. SK wide-angle lens designs have exit pupils that are closer to the sensor vs Rodi's, so they exhibit more severe color casts on FSI sensors. The new BSI design reduces that pretty dramatically. The lenses you quote above are longer, so the above-mentioned color cast is not an issue with either the Rodi or the SK on any digital sensor available now or in the past.

I am a little confused by your post, since the topic title refers to the IQ4-150, but the text in your post asks about the IQ3 100. Regardless, I think Drew is correct in that the Rodi probably wins in the detail department. That SK Apo-Symmar was designed for 4x5 film. You can see that in the MTF chart here:
Apo-Symmar 5.6/180L
Note the image circle is 277mm, the graphed lines/mm are 5/10/20, and the f-stops are 5.6, 11 and 22.

Compare that with the HR's MTF on page 12:
Rodenstock Lenses
Image circle 80mm, lines/mm are 10/20/40/80, f-stops 5.6 and 8.0.

So, at least according to the MTF's the HR will render better detail. That will show more dramatically pixel peeping with the IQ4 150. However, in general I find Schneider's MTF's to be conservative in the center, but liberal in their claims of image circle vs Rodenstock MTF's.

As for weight, believe it or not they are pretty close. Including the Copal shutter but not the Alpa helical mount, the Rodi is 425 grams vs 435 for the SK, even though the SK includes a bigger Copal 1 shutter. BTW, here is a good summary page for the SK's:
SK Lens Chart

Dave
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Tadmor

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Dave, many thanks.  Very useful. 

Just to note, the difference in cost between the two lenses is very substantial.

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dchew

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Dave, many thanks.  Very useful. 

Just to note, the difference in cost between the two lenses is very substantial.

Very true! Plus, you won’t find the SK in an Alpa Mount. Could be done by a third party.
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Altdo

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With all due respect to Drew, that sounds like a generic response to Rodenstock (Rodi) vs Schneider (SK) lenses...

Hey David,
Yes, you'll have to looked past my obligation to be somewhat impartial. However, my reply wasn't intended to to relate in generalities to Wide Angle lenses. I was more hoping to illustrate that if you REALLY wanted to evaluate the distinctive differences between the two and what that means to image quality, they are clear on a FSI sensor (IQ3 100MP) but become less obvious on the new BSI sensor. LCC is still a factor, but only to the discerning eye (especially on these focal lengths). Ultimately, the arguments of Rodenstock V Schneider become less obvious and critical when using the new sensor design IMO.
I won't specifically endorse one over the other, but as stated for what I shoot the technical differences you can evaluate in the MTF's don't influence my decision on which to use in connection to the BSI. As a real world example of my personal use, my Schneider 43mm XL has a new life and rotation in my arsenal.
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dchew

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Hi Drew!
All good points. I used to have the 43xl, and miss it terribly so I understand your love for that lens. I have the 40hr and the 35xl. MTF's and popular opinion would lead everyone to the 40, but I prefer the 35 for reasons other than sharpness. I'm looking forward to sometime in the future when I can swing the new 4-150. From the testing I did with Digital Transitions, the 35 will be much improved.

Thanks for chiming in here.

Ciao,
Dave
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Tadmor

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Very true! Plus, you won’t find the SK in an Alpa Mount. Could be done by a third party.


Dave, as for finding the SK in Alpa mount - what you write is not at all the case.  You can find them without difficulty on Ebay, where, for example, the cost of a new Alpa mount 180mm SK is about 30% of what a new Rodenstock 180 would cost.
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dchew

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Dave, as for finding the SK in Alpa mount - what you write is not at all the case.  You can find them without difficulty on Ebay, where, for example, the cost of a new Alpa mount 180mm SK is about 30% of what a new Rodenstock 180 would cost.

Ok, we might me talking about two different lenses. On Alpa’s website in the discontinued section there is the Schneider Apo-Digitar 180.
https://www.alpa.ch/en/article/apo-digitar-5-6180-mm-t-sb34
That is not the same lens as the Schneider Apo-Symmar you referenced above. Here is the data for the Apo-Digitar:
https://www.alpa.ch/_files/180T_MTF.pdf

Perhaps the Apo-Symmar was a product long ago. I don’t know. But all the listings I find today on eBay are the same one lens (all the images look the same across the different listings, and all from China). That makes me suspicious this was an Apo-Symmar lens that a 3rd party put in an “Alpa Mount,” but never really an official Alpa product.

Might be worth reaching out to Andre to find out for sure.

Dave
« Last Edit: December 28, 2018, 02:59:01 pm by dchew »
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