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PBC

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Fuji GFX Playback?
« on: December 04, 2018, 02:37:29 PM »

I read somewhere that when you playback an image on the GFX 50s, if you have recorded a RAW & JPG on the same card, the playback will be the embedded (and potentially lower resolution) JPG from the RAW file.  This will mean when zoomed into 100% the image resolution will be less and therefore somewhat more fuzzy.   If you want to playback the full sized JPG, you need to record the JPG's to Card 2 separately from the RAW file; then you get a better resolution and sharper image when zoomed in.

Is this right - and if so, is this common practice across all cameras?    Also if so, I can't see how you get maximum resolution for 100% reviews AND still back-up your RAW files.

This could all be a load of misinformation and be rubbish, so appreciate people’s view

Phil


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eronald

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2018, 02:52:31 PM »

I read somewhere that when you playback an image on the GFX 50s, if you have recorded a RAW & JPG on the same card, the playback will be the embedded (and potentially lower resolution) JPG from the RAW file.  This will mean when zoomed into 100% the image resolution will be less and therefore somewhat more fuzzy.   If you want to playback the full sized JPG, you need to record the JPG's to Card 2 separately from the RAW file; then you get a better resolution and sharper image when zoomed in.

Is this right - and if so, is this common practice across all cameras?    Also if so, I can't see how you get maximum resolution for 100% reviews AND still back-up your RAW files.

This could all be a load of misinformation and be rubbish, so appreciate people’s view

Phil

Most cameras play back the jpeg and jpeg histogram.
Actually, this shows the jpeg sharpening and can be useful.

Edmund
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PBC

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2018, 02:59:44 PM »

Most cameras play back the jpeg and jpeg histogram.
Actually, this shows the jpeg sharpening and can be useful.

Edmund

Understand the histogram is from the JPG, and I suppose logic says it will display the embedded (medium resolution?) JPG.  But, if you have a full sized JPG alongside the RAW file, wouldn't it use that for the display - especially useful when you view at 100%?   I suppose if the second card only has full sized JPGs recorded to it, it will use the full sized JPG for the playback; hence that is why it is suggested to record only JPG to Card 2 and playback from that one.

Or will this make not difference and the 100% view of an embedded JPG will be the same as a full sized JPG.

Just trying to understand this more than I do now :-)

Thanks

Phil
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eronald

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2018, 05:43:29 PM »

Understand the histogram is from the JPG, and I suppose logic says it will display the embedded (medium resolution?) JPG.  But, if you have a full sized JPG alongside the RAW file, wouldn't it use that for the display - especially useful when you view at 100%?   I suppose if the second card only has full sized JPGs recorded to it, it will use the full sized JPG for the playback; hence that is why it is suggested to record only JPG to Card 2 and playback from that one.

Or will this make not difference and the 100% view of an embedded JPG will be the same as a full sized JPG.

Just trying to understand this more than I do now :-)

Thanks

Phil

Phil

I have no idea how the GFX or the others work exactly; usually only experimentation allows one to determine that.

Historically dSLR cameras have been designed to optimise a Jpeg ie. a compressed Tiff workflow, and the visualisation features reflect the viewpoint that the user should see this Tiff with his conversion preferences -white balance, color rendering, contrast, sharpness- at the user settings. There is a logic in this as real RAW files are mostly linear files which do not really have any direct relationship to human vision. The Fuji probably adheres to convention, since it is designed s a bigger dSLR and since the user reaps the advantage of a camera whose development costs are already amortized by the smaller products in the same range. Note that most cameras can be set to generate a Jpeg file that is basically lossless as far as resolution is concerned although some color depth is sacrificed.

Some photographers eg. JR have stated that they like mirrorless precisely because this feature allows them to dial their chosen look or some approximation directly into the viewfinder representation, and thus preview their desired goal in shooting while they look through the camera as they work.

Phase One has in the past made much of using a very smart and much-loved tethered workflow which also essentially displays if not a jpeg (!) then rather a Tiff file on the computer screen. Back when I had a P45+, what was displayed on the back itself was in very technical terms simply ghastly.

Before carrying on this discussion as one of a system being inadequate, you might ask yourself "what should an electronic camera display". Because of course we all know what an optical camera should display :)

Edmund
« Last Edit: December 04, 2018, 05:51:27 PM by eronald »
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faberryman

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2018, 05:53:10 PM »

Are you talking about playback of the image on the 3" screen on the back of the camera?

PBC

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2018, 06:35:17 PM »

Are you talking about playback of the image on the 3" screen on the back of the camera?

Yes in-camera playback
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eronald

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2018, 06:38:15 PM »

Are you talking about playback of the image on the 3" screen on the back of the camera?

On mirrorless you have the back screen and the viewfinder image. Both are interpretations of what the sensor sees as the actual Raw linear data is basically meaningless to human eyes.

In its latest version IQ4 has "C1 in camera" for the back display; dSLRs have basically the same thing except it is the camera maker's "hidden" proprietary Raw conversion software. There's even a Zeiss camera which has Lightroom in camera ...

Edmund
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PBC

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #7 on: December 05, 2018, 06:43:09 AM »

I "think" the GFX is actually displaying the additional JPG and not the embedded one.

If I shoot with RAW to Card 1 and Super Fine JPG to Card 2 with an Aspect Ratio of 16:9 enabled the results are: -


* Playback from Card 1 shows the image without the aspect ratio applied (which I assume is not applied to the embedded JPG).
* Playback from Card 2 shows the image with the 16:9 applied.

Now if I change to write both RAW & JPG to the same card, then Playback show the image with the 16:9 applied (so I assume it is using the JPG file and not the embedded one).

Does this make sense?

Phil
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eronald

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2018, 07:27:47 AM »

usually these cams show whatever jpeg has been parameterised, and default to displaying the embedded preview only when the user is shooting RAW no Jpeg.

AFAIK.

someone with actual knowledge of fuji ergonomics should chime in

Edmund

I "think" the GFX is actually displaying the additional JPG and not the embedded one.

If I shoot with RAW to Card 1 and Super Fine JPG to Card 2 with an Aspect Ratio of 16:9 enabled the results are: -


* Playback from Card 1 shows the image without the aspect ratio applied (which I assume is not applied to the embedded JPG).
* Playback from Card 2 shows the image with the 16:9 applied.

Now if I change to write both RAW & JPG to the same card, then Playback show the image with the 16:9 applied (so I assume it is using the JPG file and not the embedded one).

Does this make sense?

Phil
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vjbelle

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2018, 07:44:08 AM »

I can only speak for the 50S but if raw + JPG are recorded to the same card the LCD screen will 'only' show the embedded JPG and not the additional/separate JPG - there is no way to switch. To me this has been so annoying that I actually record JPGs to another card so that I can switch and  see a higher quality image.  This is extremely important to me for checking sharpness or the focus plane which is much more difficult on the embedded JPG.

Victor
« Last Edit: December 05, 2018, 07:52:41 AM by vjbelle »
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Paul2660

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2018, 07:53:55 AM »

+1 for Victor's comments.  Amazing to me that Fuji still has this issue with such a otherwise advanced camera.  This issue has been around since day one, i.e. you can't review the image (if raw is selected) since the image review is of a low quality jpg.  I have tried the 2 card solution, but have gone back to just shrinking the screen (two finger pinch) down a bit.  This tend to show a slightly over sharpened result, but I guess I have gotten used to what I need to look for.

If this same stupid process is implemented on the 100Mp camera, shame on Fuji.  This is no reason they could not follow other companies, like Nikon, Sony, Phase One, and Hasselblad, the latter two companies both figured out a way to use the 50MP chip and give a 100% view without having to use two cards and write everything twice. 

Kinda like "why did Fuji put the Q button on the grip so almost every time you move your hand on the grip you hit the button".

Great camera, but playback should be better implemented.

Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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PBC

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2018, 08:05:25 AM »

I can only speak for the 50S but if raw + JPG are recorded to the same card the LCD screen will 'only' show the embedded JPG and not the additional/separate JPG - there is no way to switch. To me this has been so annoying that I actually record JPGs to another card so that I can switch and  see a higher quality image.  This is extremely important to me for checking sharpness or the focus plane which is much more difficult on the embedded JPG.

Victor

If it is only the embedded, I wonder why the cropped image is only displayed when there is an "external" JPG recorded on the same card with the RAW?    No external JPG, the crop is not reflected in the display.  To me this seems to indicate that the external JPG is used (at least when a different aspect ratio is used).

Getting more confused :-)
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eronald

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2018, 06:38:10 PM »

If it is only the embedded, I wonder why the cropped image is only displayed when there is an "external" JPG recorded on the same card with the RAW?    No external JPG, the crop is not reflected in the display.  To me this seems to indicate that the external JPG is used (at least when a different aspect ratio is used).

Getting more confused :-)

Programming bug? Or maybe the crop is just “fake” ie, a Raw annotation?
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Joe Towner

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2018, 12:14:22 PM »

I'm having a hard time understanding the problem with this.  If you bake a JPEG at time of capture (RAW+JPEG) the camera should go the easier/faster route of showing the pre-built file.  If you only record RAW, you're getting a pre-baked preview embedded along with the RAW information.  This is how you're able to scroll thru images quickly.  If you think about it, all mirrorless cameras have a mjpeg stream showing on the screen or via an app.  Processing the RAW each time is very intensive, and again, what you're seeing is a camera processed RAW image.

You can tell sharpness and focus off a jpeg.  Remember, the sensor RAW is RGGB info, while the screen on the back is RGB.
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Paul2660

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2018, 12:37:27 PM »

Best way I know to test/describe the issue, is that if you have the camera set to raw only, and hit play, the embedded jpg that is shown when viewed at 100 percent is blown up too far, you can't tell critical focus at all.  The first time I used the GFX in the field I was shocked as it seemed all the images were out of focus.  This is coming from a P1 or Nikon camera usage.  At first I just though that the GFX playback was over zooming, and used the two finger pinch on the screen to shrink it down.  About 1/3 of the way.  However you start to feel the effect of the image being too sharp.  But I got to where I could determine what was in focus and used that method.

If you have the GFX set to write a raw to one card and full sized high quality jpg to 2nd card (with sharpening turned on 1 or 2) after you shoot, if you switch to 2nd card and look at the jpg, it's a full resolution jpg and much easier to determine critical focus.  You can tell this because the image is larger on the display and not appearing to be blown up past 100%.

Nikon had a similar issue with the D800/D810, where default view was way past 100%, the D850 has this fixed with a setting for true 100% view.  Same with Z7. 

Phase One, has always had a perfect embedded jpg view of a 100% image, still by far the best in the field IMO. 

Fuji takes a great shot, but they did not really put much thought into the playback IMO.  Having to use 2 cards, 1 dedicated to jpgs for true viewing is not the best process and wastes a card.  I never use jpgs from any camera so to me this process is not best practice. 

I have reverted back to 2 cards, raw only,  sequential, and just have gotten to where I can view the embedded jpg and figure out my critical focus.

BTW, Live View at 100% is also very hard to deal with (at least for me and many others) even with focus peaking on.   

P1, I almost always manually focus as I never have liked the XF/DF+ AF system.  Fuji, I almost always use AF, as it's tack on, and when it hits, you never have to check unless you are working a huge range of focus 2 feet to infinity.  Fuji's AF in low light and low contrast scene is very hit and miss, more miss than hit.  I had hoped to see a firmware improvement over the 2 years the camera has been around (almost 2 years) but AF has not been worked on.  Working a scene with a GFX, early morning low light is very challenging, for manual focus is hard to determine and AF will more than likely not get a lock unless you can find something good light on it. 

Paul C

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PBC

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2018, 12:47:01 PM »

Hi Paul; have you tried setting an aspect ratio (say 16:9) and then use RAW+JPG to Card 1 and see if you get the same problem?  I wonder if this then uses the external JPG to be able to show the crop.   Crops are only displayed if JPG is selected, so this might be why

Phil
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PBC

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2018, 06:45:38 AM »

Hi Paul - just tried this....

With no Aspect Ratio applied - RAW on Card 1 - JPEG on Card 2 = Playback from Card 1 low resultion JPEG is used; Playback from Card 2 high resolution JPEG is used.
With a 16:9 Aspect Ration applied - RAW & JPEG on both Cards (Backup Mode) = Playback from Card 1 uses high resolution JPEG and NOT embedded

Seems that when an in-camera "crop" is applied it has to preview back from the external JPEG which means you can zoom in on the high resolution JPEG in Playback.   

Doesn't help if you want to shoot in native aspect ratio :-(

Be good if you or someone can check my test in case I messed up something?

Thanks

Phil
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Paul2660

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2018, 11:35:08 AM »

Hi,

Sorry, I just got back in and did try the 16:9, and the two cards.  It worked like you stated, the problem is the 16:9 ration, is not the native 4:3.  I believe 16:9 is closer to 3:2 or native 35mm format?, which would be cropping off the sensor?  Like using 35mm mode.    I will do more checking over the weekend, but it's strange to see it work right in the 16:9 ratio all on one card, but not 4:3 which I believe is native resolution for the sensor.

It's more disappointing that Fuji still can't fix this basic issue that all other companies with similar products can, note the X1D works like the P1 50MP digital backs, both for Live View and playback. 

I have called Fuji several times on this issue in the past year, but just gave up as their developers just don't seem to get it in regards to how critical 100% view for both Live View and Playback is on a higher resolution chip.

Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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PBC

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Re: Fuji GFX Playback?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2018, 12:12:32 PM »

Yes very strange.

The crop isn’t a hard crop just a parameter crop applied to the image and when opened in a RAW processor the full 4:3 image is available.

Even more strange, is that the crop is shown in the viewfinder and LCD for composition, only if JPEG files are set.  If the camera is only set for RAWs then the crop isn’t shown.  And this is before there is a captured external JPEG to use!

This all would appear to indicate this should be an easy firmware fix to make.

Phil
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