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Author Topic: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?  (Read 52677 times)

chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #480 on: September 02, 2019, 10:23:24 am »

I guess that the only good news for Nikon is that one of their 2 competitors is Canon.

Great lenses, poor bodies for 10 years or more... and things have gotten worse since the start of the mirrorless days. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Yet they are outselling Nikon by big margins.
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John Camp

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #481 on: September 02, 2019, 03:19:08 pm »

Although I'm unhappy about the Z lens situation, I think the body is terrific -- in fact, I see little need to upgrade anything in terms of ergonomics or menu usability. IMHO (I'm not an engineer) I suspect that Nikon could slip an upgraded sensor into the body without a great deal of fuss. (There would be some fuss, of course.) Quite a few people think they're going to do that, as soon as they have access to the sensor. They won't have to build a new camera around it. And, again, a Canon 61mp sensor wouldn't be a great advance over the current Z7 -- certainly nothing most professionals would spend much time worrying about. You'd need a magnifying glass and a very large print to find the difference, if you could do it at all. 
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #482 on: September 02, 2019, 04:33:49 pm »

Although I'm unhappy about the Z lens situation, I think the body is terrific -- in fact, I see little need to upgrade anything in terms of ergonomics or menu usability. IMHO (I'm not an engineer) I suspect that Nikon could slip an upgraded sensor into the body without a great deal of fuss. (There would be some fuss, of course.) Quite a few people think they're going to do that, as soon as they have access to the sensor. They won't have to build a new camera around it. And, again, a Canon 61mp sensor wouldn't be a great advance over the current Z7 -- certainly nothing most professionals would spend much time worrying about. You'd need a magnifying glass and a very large print to find the difference, if you could do it at all.
That's my feeling as well.  I've had the Z 6 since January and find it just the right size with the 24-70 zoom.  I don't need to go down to f2.8 for my needs and of course that lens is heavier and more bulky.  I still have my 'old' Nikkor primes but I've really not had any need to put them on and the FTZ adapter has yet to be used.  Since I don't print any bigger than 17x25, the Z 6 works out just fine.  I was amazed by the detail of some of the landscapes I took when we were up in Banff; the wooden ties on the Canadian Pacific railroad tracks were all distinct and clear even from the distance the image was shot.  There are still some features I need to get up to speed on but that will come.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #483 on: September 02, 2019, 05:11:47 pm »

Yet they are outselling Nikon by big margins.

We don’t have the full data, but several data points indicate that Canon is mostly outselling Nikon thanks to 400 US$ rebels and M class mirrorless bodies.

On the high end Nikon has most probably been ahead for some time.

And why would it not be the case with Nikon cameras being ahead technically by a clear margin for more than 10 years?

Cheers,
Bernard

chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #484 on: September 02, 2019, 06:35:03 pm »

We don’t have the full data, but several data points indicate that Canon is mostly outselling Nikon thanks to 400 US$ rebels and M class mirrorless bodies.

On the high end Nikon has most probably been ahead for some time.

And why would it not be the case with Nikon cameras being ahead technically by a clear margin for more than 10 years?

Cheers,
Bernard

Yes we don't have full data so what data are you using to guess that Nikon has been ahead of Canon on the high end for some time? Personally I see way more professional Canon gear at events I attend or shoot. You keep saying Nikon is outselling Canon at the high end...but do you have any actual data as I know you really pull for Nikon so without data I just can't believe it.
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gkroeger

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #485 on: September 02, 2019, 06:37:42 pm »

On the high end Nikon has most probably been ahead for some time.

And why would it not be the case with Nikon cameras being ahead technically by a clear margin for more than 10 years?

Cheers,
Bernard

I think this depends on how you define "high end". Certainly at wedding venues, press conferences and sporting events in the U.S., Canon still seems to dominate. Seems that for most of these purposes, the 5DMkx series is good enough to hold court. Canon also jumped out in video. Sony, and now Nikon have recently eaten into those realms, but to assume that Canon can't fight back is to underestimate a dangerous competitor. If you scale their sensor technology from the new 90D you will have an 82 MP sensor with DR, according to early reports, catching up to Sony/Nikon. Point is, nobody can rest on their laurels. Sony seriously needs to redo some of their early Sony/Zeiss lenses which already have marginal reputations and are going to look really bad on an A7RIV. Sony get's a little cushion by licensing their lens mount so that Sigma, Zeiss and Tamron can fill in gaps. Nikon has a good lens roadmap, but they need to execute on both quality and timing. If, as Canon is predicting, the ILC market shrinks another 40% in the next two years, only the big or nimble will make it.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #486 on: September 02, 2019, 08:27:31 pm »

Yes we don't have full data so what data are you using to guess that Nikon has been ahead of Canon on the high end for some time? Personally I see way more professional Canon gear at events I attend or shoot. You keep saying Nikon is outselling Canon at the high end...but do you have any actual data as I know you really pull for Nikon so without data I just can't believe it.

I see just the opposite in Japan and recent sales figures from leading camera stores in Japan confirm this impression.

This may be Japan only, I am not sure. It would make sense since Japanese photographers appear to be highly equipment aware and willing to switch rather easily to the best there is.

Cheers,
Bernard

chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #487 on: September 02, 2019, 10:30:20 pm »

I see just the opposite in Japan and recent sales figures from leading camera stores in Japan confirm this impression.

This may be Japan only, I am not sure. It would make sense since Japanese photographers appear to be highly equipment aware and willing to switch rather easily to the best there is.

Cheers,
Bernard

I guess that explains why Sony is gaining market share...even in Japan.  :D
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #488 on: September 02, 2019, 10:51:00 pm »

I guess that explains why Sony is gaining market share...even in Japan.  :D

Yes, indeed.

I don’t know any former Canon user not having moved to Sony.

On the other hand I don’t know any Nikon user having moved to Sony. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 01:30:58 am by BernardLanguillier »
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #489 on: September 03, 2019, 01:24:11 am »

I know of a Nikon user who moved to Fuji, also one who moved to Sony and one who moved to Olympus. Not all of them where I live either. However I don’t take this as proof of anything.

When I watch newscasts it seems the vast majority of cameras on display are still Canon. When I am out shooting I get remarks from young photographers that are surprised to see someone of my generation using Sony. If I were to make an observation on who uses what I would say it seems to be older people using Nikon and youngsters using Sony. It’s a generalization of course. I also know young photographers using Nikon.

YouTube gives a very weird view of it all. Quite frankly I don’t regard the YouTubers as professional photographers even though they describe themselves as such. You are professional if someone contacts you and pays you to take photographs, not if you stand up and talk crap about your latest professional landscape shoot that sold one print to your aunty. Never really understood all fuss about being professional anyway. Funny way to make a loving. Sorry my mind is wondering this morning. 

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chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #490 on: September 03, 2019, 10:03:55 am »

Yes, indeed.

I don’t know any former Canon user not having moved to Sony.

On the other hand I don’t know any Nikon user having moved to Sony. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Well given there are a magnitude if not more Canon users than Nikon users, this seems right. I visit Sony forums and you'd actually be surprised how many Nikon folk moved to Sony.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #491 on: September 04, 2019, 08:17:22 am »

Well given there are a magnitude if not more Canon users than Nikon users, this seems right. I visit Sony forums and you'd actually be surprised how many Nikon folk moved to Sony.

Yes, I’d be surprised.

Cheers,
Bernard

chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #492 on: September 04, 2019, 08:26:31 am »

Yes, I’d be surprised.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well you should broaden your horizons so you don't have such a narrow view of things.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #493 on: September 04, 2019, 09:31:34 am »

I was offered a Sony A7R4 today second hand. Didn’t even know they were available yet. $2000. Taken a few hundred photos. The photographer selling it had sold an 810 and bought the Sony. He hates it and now wants to buy an 850. He tried the Z7 and didn’t like that. I am a bit tempted but have only had my A7R3 for a few months and couldn’t really be bothered right now.

Anyway people jump around in hope that the prefect camera will appear and they will take the perfect photo with it. I’m all for finding a good camera that works for me but I’m under no illusions as to where the bottleneck to my success lies. I don’t think Nikon have some magic stuff that if you use one you would never switch Sony or Canon. I know people who have. It’s works for some but not for others.

The way we carry on you would think we believe that old story about “You take good photos, you must have a good camera.” that annoys us all so much.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #494 on: September 04, 2019, 10:24:00 am »

It’s obviously possible to take great images with any modern camera.

But Sony has done more to push the envelope that any other manufacturer, Fuji is second, Nikon 3rd and Canon has been very far behind on the body front for more than 10 years.

Besides Canon lenses have been easy to adapt to Sony bodies.

It’s real easy to understand why many more Canon photographers have gone the Sony route.

Canon should focus on their key strength which is lens design and manufacturing. They are killing themselves by letting their incompetent camera team lock them into only designing R mount lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard

chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #495 on: September 04, 2019, 10:38:14 am »

It’s obviously possible to take great images with any modern camera.

But Sony has done more to push the envelope that any other manufacturer, Fuji is second, Nikon 3rd and Canon has been very far behind on the body front for more than 10 years.

Besides Canon lenses have been easy to adapt to Sony bodies.

It’s real easy to understand why many more Canon photographers have gone the Sony route.

Canon should focus on their key strength which is lens design and manufacturing. They are killing themselves by letting their incompetent camera team lock them into only designing R mount lenses.

Cheers,
Bernard

Killing...but taking market share from Nikon that has slumped to under 20%. In a shrinking market, market share is huge. Slipping year after year is not a good trend.

Even though you think their mirrorless release is weak, they still outsell Nikon.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #496 on: September 04, 2019, 10:47:55 am »

Killing...but taking market share from Nikon that has slumped to under 20%. In a shrinking market, market share is huge. Slipping year after year is not a good trend.

Even though you think their mirrorless release is weak, they still outsell Nikon.

Canons new M6MK2 looks like a tidy camera don’t you think? Canon make stuff I would buy. I have confidence in Sony because of their innovation and the rapid improvements they continue to make. I also feel that Canon will make something very useful and have the resources to do so. Canon lags pretty much only with a bit of DR and think DR is so large these days it’s actually not as important as we all think. For me the pixel wars are over and so is the DR wars. I’m not sure about Nikon. Great cameras but their strategy confuses me. Perhaps because I think that mirrorless is the future and the present and Nikon seems unconvinced and slow on the uptake. They are starting to remind me of Kodak. 
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #497 on: September 04, 2019, 06:00:23 pm »

The future of the M mount is highly questionable IMHO, even if the M sales are largely responsible for the mirrorless sales of Canon.

Tests will tell, but I have doubts about the 30+ mp res on a Canon APS-C sensor.

Finally there have been very few reports of dual AF standing a chance of being competitive vs the Sony and Nikon AF solutions.

Cheers,
Bernard

chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #498 on: September 04, 2019, 07:20:55 pm »

The future of the M mount is highly questionable IMHO, even if the M sales are largely responsible for the mirrorless sales of Canon.

Tests will tell, but I have doubts about the 30+ mp res on a Canon APS-C sensor.

Finally there have been very few reports of dual AF standing a chance of being competitive vs the Sony and Nikon AF solutions.

Cheers,
Bernard

Canon is big enough to keep multiple mounts going as long as they are making profits with each mount. I guess we'll see what rabbit Canon pulls out of the hat with respect to the 30mpux APS sensor. Let's not forget the huge majority of photographers are not bit heads that measure noise at high ISO nor dynamic range...but just take photos. We can always point at technical deficiencies in the Canon lineup...but it's the market leader by a long shot...and from the glass they are releasing, I have my suspicions they'll surprise many with their pro level cameras.

Now Nikon releasing a D6...are they serious about mirrorless at the professional level? Where is the mirrorless version of the D6?
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #499 on: September 04, 2019, 08:08:55 pm »

Canon is big enough to keep multiple mounts going as long as they are making profits with each mount. I guess we'll see what rabbit Canon pulls out of the hat with respect to the 30mpux APS sensor. Let's not forget the huge majority of photographers are not bit heads that measure noise at high ISO nor dynamic range...but just take photos. We can always point at technical deficiencies in the Canon lineup...but it's the market leader by a long shot...and from the glass they are releasing, I have my suspicions they'll surprise many with their pro level cameras.

They have always had great glass, that hasn't prevented them from releasing a long stream of lukewarm bodies.

The issue with Canon is their mindset. They aren't serving their customers, they are milking them.

They are by far the most arrogant company I have ever been in touch with.

Now Nikon releasing a D6...are they serious about mirrorless at the professional level? Where is the mirrorless version of the D6?

The release of the D6 is completely normal. What isn't is the lack of 1Dx mkIII, but it is 100% certain it is going to come very soon.

Are you going to question whether Canon is serious about mirrorless when it does?

The reality today is that 99% of sports pro still shoot with DSLRs. Addressing this market is simply listening to the photographers.

I am fully aware that mirrorless is the future and as of now the H6D-100c remains my only digital camera with a mirror, but this doesn't mean that we are already there.

I guess you also believe that most people drive a Tesla?

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 08:21:48 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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