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Author Topic: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?  (Read 52685 times)

Mark D Segal

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #120 on: December 11, 2018, 03:33:00 pm »

I hear a lot of dislike about the Sony menu system...I really don't like it either...but the cameras are so customizable to the way you want to shoot, to the point the only time I really go into the menu system today is to format a card. The rest is either done by buttons or dials or the quick Fn function. Yet...trying the camera out in a store would leave you thinking it is unusable due to the cumbersome menu system. It's these quick one hour decisions that do you more harm than good, IMHO.

I'm lucky in that I have a very good relationship with a camera store which allows me to borrow their rental gear if not booked so I can use a camera or lens quite extensively before I decide to purchase. When I do purchase, I know what I am getting...not what some internet reviewer says and is extensively echoed in the internet chambers.

I hear you - but just to take the example you give - an astute dealer would know how to get a customer over that concern pretty quickly. And so I agree - a good relationship with a retailer is very useful. I'm not saying a quick tour of the camera at the shop is all one needs - just that's it's useful. Should not be dismissed out of hand.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #121 on: December 11, 2018, 03:38:11 pm »

"Why would anyone still believe in Canon enough today to decide to invest cash on the R system?

Thoughts?"

Many people have large investments in Canon lenses and are more likely to migrate to a Canon mirrorless than either a Sony or Nikon mirrorless system. I used to shoot Canon and made to move to Sony when they released their A7R camera...but if Canon had a full frame mirrorless at the time, I highly doubt I'd made the move to Sony.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #122 on: December 11, 2018, 03:40:40 pm »

I recognize the dislike of Sony’s menu system, together with the small lens mount. This indeed gets echoed in the Internet chambers, keeping me away from Sony (and their great G-Master lenses). Apart from this I mentioned that Sony has the best cards in hand....

Regards,
Jaap.

OK, reviews are another talk show - I should know because I write them, not so much cameras, but more into printers, papers, scanners etc. Let's be clear - every reviewer comes at their material emphasizing different things in different ways. Readers need to learn how to parse reviews, and especially to dismiss material that is just from the echo chamber. There is a "fine art" to reading a review, discerning whether what's being said makes sense and getting what one wants out of it, and at the end of the day, one learns a bunch of stuff from reading the useful portions of several qualified reviews, but then the serious reader in the market for equipment needs to interact with the materials themselves to see first hand.

Edit: corrected typo.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 08:17:35 pm by Mark D Segal »
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Telecaster

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #123 on: December 11, 2018, 03:54:38 pm »

I can't be bothered ranking camera systems, particularly ones I don't own & use myself, 'cuz each has its own set of strengths and weaknesses. The rankings would change a lot depending on the intended use. And they'd be based solely on my own tastes and idiosyncracies.

-Dave-
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faberryman

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #124 on: December 11, 2018, 05:00:01 pm »

OK, reviews are another talk show - I should know because I write them, not so much cameras, but more into printers, papers, scanners etc. Lst's be clear - every reviewer comes at their material emphasizing different things in different ways. Readers need to learn how to parse reviews, and especially to dismiss material that is just from the echo chamber. There is a "fine art" to reading a review, discerning whether what's being said makes sense and getting what one wants out of it, and at the end of the day, one learns a bunch of stuff from reading the useful portions of several qualified reviews, but then the serious reader in the market for equipment needs to interact with the materials themselves to see first hand.
I don't place much stock in reviews.  The are mostly a regurgitation of marketing hype, specifications, and fanboyisms, with linkw to the major photographic suppliers so that they can get a cut of the purchase price. That and a bunch on mediocre, small, 96 ppi jpgs. The video reviews are the worst. I compare the manufacturers specs and then handle the cameras and lenses before purchasing.
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 05:05:54 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #125 on: December 11, 2018, 05:17:23 pm »

I hear you - but just to take the example you give - an astute dealer would know how to get a customer over that concern pretty quickly. And so I agree - a good relationship with a retailer is very useful. I'm not saying a quick tour of the camera at the shop is all one needs - just that's it's useful. Should not be dismissed out of hand.
Those of you who still have retailers in your city are fortunate.  The have all but disappeared down here in Washington DC.  I think I would have to go up to New York to try out a Nikon Z camera.
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faberryman

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #126 on: December 11, 2018, 05:22:42 pm »

Those of you who still have retailers in your city are fortunate.  The have all but disappeared down here in Washington DC.  I think I would have to go up to New York to try out a Nikon Z camera.
You can also purchase from suppliers who offer return privileges.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #127 on: December 11, 2018, 06:09:37 pm »

That's sad - there is no full-line Nikon dealer left in a big city like DC? There are certainly places in the country where that's true, but I would have thought DC would have had at least one dealer for Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji and maybe Panasonic and/or Olympus... Boston is down to one real camera store, Hunt's Photo (with a bunch of branches), but their flagship store carries all six of the above plus Fuji Medium Format, Hasselblad (X1D system only) and Leica. I suspect at least one of their other branches would also have a Z7 in stock (the flagship store has several at any given time, plus they rent them). They are fully capable of pulling a Z7, an A7rIII, a GFX (although they didn't have a 50R yet when I was last there) and an X1D down for one to look at... To give an idea of how full-line Hunt's is in Nikon, they generally keep the Nikkor 800 f5.6 and several of the Perspective Control lenses in stock. They have equivalent stock depth in most brands - I'm not sure if their Leica stock is all that deep - maybe only B&H actually stocks the Noctilux! Hunt's is missing the Hasselblad H system, Pentax (they are a Pentax dealer, but stock little if any) and Phase One. We also have a Phase One dealer less than an hour away (a branch of Capture Integration).

Even Vermont, where I lived for many years, has a Nikon/Canon/Sony/Fuji/Olympus/Panasonic/Leica dealer. Their Nikon stock would run through the D850 and Z7, and they would often have a D5 as well. They would certainly have a 70-200 f2.8 (Nikon, Canon and Sony, plus a Sigma in at least one mount) most of the time, and probably a 300 f2.8 Nikkor or Sigma. A 300 f4 PF would be a normal stock item, while the 500 f5.6 PF would be a "maybe". They carry a relatively full line (except some exotics) in all their brands.  They would have a good chance of having all of the Sony FF lenses except for the 400 f2.8, many or most of the Canons through the 300 f2.8 and probably all of the Fujinons except the 200 f2. They have full pro-line dealerships in everything - they'd be happy to order an 800mm f5.6 Nikkor or the Canon equivalent, a Leica Noctilux or a Fuji GFX. I recognize that Green Mountain Camera is unusual, maybe even very unusual, for a rural state.

 I would expect a big city with a huge press corps like DC to have something like that... Has a place called Pro Photo a few blocks from the White House disappeared? There's also something called District Camera & Imaging with a big picture of a Z7 on their home page. They claim to be a dealer for the big four, although not Olympus or Panasonic...
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chez

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #128 on: December 11, 2018, 06:41:33 pm »

That's sad - there is no full-line Nikon dealer left in a big city like DC? There are certainly places in the country where that's true, but I would have thought DC would have had at least one dealer for Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji and maybe Panasonic and/or Olympus... Boston is down to one real camera store, Hunt's Photo (with a bunch of branches), but their flagship store carries all six of the above plus Fuji Medium Format, Hasselblad (X1D system only) and Leica. I suspect at least one of their other branches would also have a Z7 in stock (the flagship store has several at any given time, plus they rent them). They are fully capable of pulling a Z7, an A7rIII, a GFX (although they didn't have a 50R yet when I was last there) and an X1D down for one to look at... To give an idea of how full-line Hunt's is in Nikon, they generally keep the Nikkor 800 f5.6 and several of the Perspective Control lenses in stock. They have equivalent stock depth in most brands - I'm not sure if their Leica stock is all that deep - maybe only B&H actually stocks the Noctilux! Hunt's is missing the Hasselblad H system, Pentax (they are a Pentax dealer, but stock little if any) and Phase One. We also have a Phase One dealer less than an hour away (a branch of Capture Integration).

Even Vermont, where I lived for many years, has a Nikon/Canon/Sony/Fuji/Olympus/Panasonic/Leica dealer. Their Nikon stock would run through the D850 and Z7, and they would often have a D5 as well. They would certainly have a 70-200 f2.8 (Nikon, Canon and Sony, plus a Sigma in at least one mount) most of the time, and probably a 300 f2.8 Nikkor or Sigma. A 300 f4 PF would be a normal stock item, while the 500 f5.6 PF would be a "maybe". They carry a relatively full line (except some exotics) in all their brands.  They would have a good chance of having all of the Sony FF lenses except for the 400 f2.8, many or most of the Canons through the 300 f2.8 and probably all of the Fujinons except the 200 f2. They have full pro-line dealerships in everything - they'd be happy to order an 800mm f5.6 Nikkor or the Canon equivalent, a Leica Noctilux or a Fuji GFX. I recognize that Green Mountain Camera is unusual, maybe even very unusual, for a rural state.

 I would expect a big city with a huge press corps like DC to have something like that... Has a place called Pro Photo a few blocks from the White House disappeared? There's also something called District Camera & Imaging with a big picture of a Z7 on their home page. They claim to be a dealer for the big four, although not Olympus or Panasonic...

Bottom line for me is if i’m going to use the services of a local retailer, then i’m Going to purchase the gear from that retailer. Doing otherwise is just abusing the services of the local guy and then buying from the Internet big box store.

I’ve built a great relationship with a local camera store, buy all my new gear from them...they give me a good price along with basically free use of their rental pool. Many times it pays to shop local rather than getting an item for a few bucks less from the net.
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BJL

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #129 on: December 11, 2018, 08:07:20 pm »

Those of you who still have retailers in your city are fortunate.  The have all but disappeared down here in Washington DC.
That has been a surprising and rapid collapse—it seems only a decade ago that Washington had several great pro.-oriented camera stores, with lots of more specialized gear like studio lighting, and I would have thought that the political press corp alone would keep at least one of them in business.

So now the only high-end camera store there is the Leica boutique?!
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Dan Wells

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #130 on: December 11, 2018, 10:34:37 pm »

I buy almost all my gear from either Hunt's in Boston or Green Mountain in Vermont... The one exception is filters, where even a large dealer like Hunt's is often double B&H's price. There's also the occasional small item that nobody carries... For printing-related stuff, I use Shades of Paper frequently (they are much cheaper than most places on printers, and they're very reliable on having ink in stock).

The place I try NEVER to buy photographic equipment from is Amazon. First of all, I'd rather support my local camera dealers than B&H, and I'd rather support B&H (who at least have a great commitment to the photographic world) than Amazon. Secondly, I don't like their policy of always promoting a cheaper alternative, even in cases where the alternative is potentially dangerous. I would never use an off-brand battery in a camera I cared about - there is a very slight risk of the battery hurting someone, and a much larger risk of the battery hurting the camera - it's not worth it to put a knockoff battery in a camera that is worth between $900 and $3400... I also prefer name-brand filters to off-brand options, because they have fewer (and more predictable) effects on image quality. I just tried three searches for photographic items on Amazon...

1.) B+W 77 mm UV filter - I got two sponsored results (aka ads) for other-brand filters before I got the first result for a B+W filter (then I got three or four B+W models in a row, offering me choices of coating and regular vs. slim). Interestingly, the off-brand filters weremore expensivethan B+W. When I clicked on one of the B+W results, there was an offer of an AmazonBasics filter instead (much cheaper), but it wasn't a terribly hard sell.

2.) Nikon EN-EL 15b battery - when I specified the word Nikon, the first result was the correct Nikon battery, not an off-brand version. When I clicked through to the description page, it was festooned with ads trying to switch me to various off-brand versions, ranging from the vaguely reasonable (Wasabi Power) to names nobody has ever heard of.

3. ) w126s battery (I deliberately left the word Fujifilm off) - the first two results were sponsored links to off-brand versions, the third link was to the Fuji battery (which did have an "Amazon's choice" banner, which is relatively new - I wonder if they've taken heat for how hard they were pushing off-brands). When I clicked through to the Fuji battery, I got a page where there was a "buy the Fuji" link, but the rest of the page was primarily ads for off-brand batteries. I then experimentally clicked on one of the off-brand batteries, to see how easy it was to get back to the Fuji version. In the (probably five) lists of links to options, the Fuji appeared in two of the lists - in neither case was it the first item in the list, nor did it have any indication that it was different from the others.

Special dubious recognition to Amazon for the animated Xfinity ad that appeared on the Fuji battery page (even running two ad-blockers and a cookie-killer). There really shouldn't be second-level ads on a service that is already a catalog (which is a giant ad).

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #131 on: December 12, 2018, 08:18:08 am »

That has been a surprising and rapid collapse—it seems only a decade ago that Washington had several great pro.-oriented camera stores, with lots of more specialized gear like studio lighting, and I would have thought that the political press corp alone would keep at least one of them in business.

So now the only high-end camera store there is the Leica boutique?!
We used to have Penn Camera that had stores in downtown DC and in the suburbs.  I don't count Ritz Camera who only offered consumer cameras and gear.  They had great service and you could rent equipment from them as well. They experienced financial problems as did others with the 2008 great recession and went into bankruptcy.  They were rescued for a short period of time by Calumet out of Chicago but then ultimately folded up and left the scene.  Even Ritz declared bankruptcy, briefly came out of it but now are closing stores as well.  Most consumer camera stuff are sold through Best Buy down here.  One problem is store rents are very high in the DC area.

We do have District Camera but their main store is over in Virginia and about a 50 minute drive.  Because it involves going on the heavily traveled Capital Beltway, there is a narrow travel window if one doesn't want to sit in "parking lot" traffic.  They have the Z cameras listed but I don't know what they have in terms of demo stock.  I'll give them a call and check.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #132 on: December 21, 2018, 04:40:43 pm »

Hum...

https://photorumors.com/2018/12/19/2018-worst-camera-of-the-year-award-vote-now/

33% of people voting for the R as the worst camera of the year, 4 times more vote than #2 (sony a7III) and #3 (Z7) and around 7 or 8%.

Obviously some fan boys are at play to some extent but still...

Cheers,
Bernard

Deardorff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #133 on: December 21, 2018, 06:42:59 pm »

This is as dumb as asking how a bowl of new cereal will change your life - after the first bowl.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #134 on: December 21, 2018, 09:29:30 pm »

This is as dumb as asking how a bowl of new cereal will change your life - after the first bowl.

No, it is about asking how bad the first bowl of cereal tasted.

And why think that the following ones will be better when all the previous ones weren’t that great either?

Cheers,
Bernard

scooby70

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #135 on: December 22, 2018, 06:40:37 am »

Any cereal made by Nikon is clearly the best and is always utterly delicious. Everyone knows Nikon invented cereal and Nikon cereal is always the best.
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #136 on: December 22, 2018, 07:11:03 am »

Hum...

https://photorumors.com/2018/12/19/2018-worst-camera-of-the-year-award-vote-now/

33% of people voting for the R as the worst camera of the year, 4 times more vote than #2 (sony a7III) and #3 (Z7) and around 7 or 8%.

Obviously some fan boys are at play to some extent but still...

Cheers,
Bernard
After cleaning those results to improve SNR, yes, still the Canon EOS R ends up being the less exciting, lowest features/price ratio and best sold of the three FF mirrorless brands.

Exactly as expected. Why would things on mirrorless be any different than in the DSLR world?.

Regards

Enviado desde mi PRA-LX1 mediante Tapatalk

BernardLanguillier

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #137 on: December 22, 2018, 09:39:52 am »

Any cereal made by Nikon is clearly the best and is always utterly delicious. Everyone knows Nikon invented cereal and Nikon cereal is always the best.

That's certainly not my view of things.

And the post you are reacting to wasn't very positive about Nikon either, the Z7 is in 3rd place for worst camera of the year...

The only thing Nikon should be happy about is that Canon is in a much worse position that theirs in that survey.

Cheers,
Bernard

hogloff

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #138 on: December 22, 2018, 02:03:51 pm »

That's certainly not my view of things.

And the post you are reacting to wasn't very positive about Nikon either, the Z7 is in 3rd place for worst camera of the year...

The only thing Nikon should be happy about is that Canon is in a much worse position that theirs in that survey.

Cheers,
Bernard

Well my understanding is Canon is still kicking Nikon's butt when it comes to revenue...which is really what counts for these corporations. Nikon has been in a big slide in this area these last few years.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Mirrorless war - Canon vs Nikon - who is the current winner?
« Reply #139 on: December 22, 2018, 02:09:09 pm »

Well my understanding is Canon is still kicking Nikon's butt when it comes to revenue...which is really what counts for these corporations. Nikon has been in a big slide in this area these last few years.

I'm not sure your understanding is correct, however. The fact is that the camera market is saturated - too many makes and models to spread between too few incremental customers for them, so there is an intense battle over market-share, with Canon and Nikon both losing out to Sony in this niche of the photographic market place. Canon has such a diversified product slate in so many fields of imaging that as a corporation it is doing pretty well, but at this point in time I wouldn't necessarily be putting all my eggs in the camera baskets of any of these companies.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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