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Author Topic: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...  (Read 5008 times)

Dan Wells

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Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« on: November 09, 2018, 10:32:51 pm »

   I finally have enough images on my Z7, after getting out for a long shoot (the third with the Z7) yesterday, to have formed some real opinions based on about 500 shots.

My background is that I've been shooting landscape for over 15 years, using digital cameras ranging from the first Canon EOS-D30 to the brand-new Z7 plus some medium format film. I'm most familiar with Fuji and Nikon, but I taught photography at the university level for years, and have dealt with most cameras (and their files) at some point.

First, the positives...

There's something special about the files at low ISO. While I have largely used Fuji APS-C in recent years, I am quite familiar with the A7r (original) and the D800e, although not with the successors of either. Compared to any other camera I have used, there is a "presence" to Z7 files at or near ISO 64 that I have not seen in other digital files - yes, they have enormous resolution and dynamic range, but there is something even more than that. Looking at a file of this quality is like seeing a large format transparency for the first time (I'd place the overall quality quite securely above any medium-format transparency I've seen, scanned on any scanner I've had access to - I have never used an Imacon or a drum scanner). I suspect that the "presence" is created by a combination of three factors - the resolution, the dynamic range, and the fact that low-ISO files are utterly noiseless. Medium-format digital shooters talk about something similar - I've only handled medium-format digital in shows or stores). I'm quite sure D850 files with a good lens would be similar (it's a very similar sensor), and I strongly suspect the A7r mk III might have it too.

It's a very nice camera to handle. It really does feel like a Nikon DSLR, and Nikon DSLRs handle very well in general (my personal bias about camera handling is that Nikons and Fujis handle very differently from each other, but both very well - then Olympus, then Canon and Panasonic, with Sonys close to the bottom of the pile - they always feel a bit off to me) . It's small and light (lighter than any midline APS-C DSLR, let alone a D850) and hikes well. Roger Cicala's teardown is extremely reassuring about the ruggedness and sealing - if you can take a camera other than a waterproof compact somewhere, you can take a Z7. I've been caught in one surprise downpour so far with no ill effects. The only thing that's a bit disconcerting at first (and you soon get used to it) is that, because of the size, you kind of expect it to handle like a consumer Nikon DSLR (D3xxx or D5xxx), while the majority of the controls are set up like a pro Nikon DSLR (D850).

The 24-70mm f4 is a great lens for the size and price. The center and even edge sharpness is as good as any zoom I've seen anywhere. The extreme corners are weaker, but weaker in this context is "pretty good for a zoom, and better than any full-frame zoom this small has any right to be this far into the corner", while the strong center is "wow, it's at least as good as things like the best 24-70 f2.8 zooms and the Fujinon 16-55 f2.8". Overall, it would be a very good lens even if it were heavy and expensive - it's neither one... I can't wait for the 14-30 to arrive on the market, and I encourage Nikon to consider a 70-200 or 70-300 other than the f2.8 - if they can make compact zooms like this, I want a full line of them...

Despite all the complaints about the AF, it's extremely consistent in my use. I've had it in Precision AF - with a camera this sharp, you want to point the AF at exactly what you want. I'm using it as a (backcountry) landscape camera, not a sports camera - I don't especially need speed or tracking. It focuses where it says it's going to, and it gets it right. Is it fast? A few years ago, it would have been notably fast. Even in Precision AF, it's much faster than an X-Pro 1, an original A7r, or other slow-focusing cameras. It's not as fast as an X-H1 or even an X-T2... It's a lot faster than manually focusing a 4x5" view camera  :) Using it for what it shines at, it's more than fast enough (and much faster than any of its medium-format competitors).

The IBIS is excellent - I get most shots sharp down to 1/25 of a second or so (on a camera with this much resolution, that's quite a bit), and I've landed sharp shots at 1/8. I haven't dared shoot it slower than 1/8... Slower than 1/8? On a camera with resolution like this? Try handholding a Hasselblad 501C with Tech Pan in it at 1/4 second... There is some shutter shock, completely controlled by the optional electronic first-curtain shutter, so turn it on and leave it on...

The EVF is the best viewfinder I have used, optical or electronic. EVFs have reached the point where good ones are competitive with really good prisms (and much better than the mirror prisms on lower-end DSLRs). The advantage of a great EVF is that you can choose what information is displayed, and how it is displayed.

Now, the actual downsides (things where the camera could have been designed better).

The battery life is better than CIPA says, and significantly better than any "small-battery" mirrorless camera (any Fuji, any Sony prior to the a9 and the a7III generation, many others that use the little rectangular batteries rated around 1000 mAh), but it isn't anywhere near the "charge it on Monday and use it all week" life of many DSLRs that use the ~2000 mAh battery. I haven't run a battery down all the way yet, because I've been using it on one-day shoots so far. After ~200 shots and a pretty good day on the trail, it's down two bars out of five.  Assuming the battery meter isn't too badly off (and recent ones tend not to be), I suspect it of getting 400-500 images per battery in my usage. It'll get more in event photography or the like, where you shoot a ton quickly. I'll carry 3-4 batteries on an extended hike (I need to come into town once a week to resupply, anyway, and I'll charge up when I do). Much better than 7 Fuji batteries (the worst offenders I know of on battery life are the X-H1 and full-frame Sonys prior to the battery upgrade), but I'd only carry two for a D850.

The latch on the memory card door can come open as you're getting the camera out of a tight bag - it is designed to open by pulling it towards the back of the camera. There's nothing you'd do while photographing that does that accidentally, and the door on the D850 works exactly the same way... The problem is that scraping it against the edge of a bag can pop it open. It takes a little extra care in a small vertical holster bag in the rain (where popping the door would be a bad idea). I'll probably tape mine in that exact situation. Not a problem in any bag where the camera is horizontal, nor in any bag where there is space on the grip side. There should be a secondary lock on the card door, though - the only flaw in an otherwise excellent sealing job.

High ISO image quality is disappointing compared to one particular competitor - the Z7 itself at low ISO! At ISO 1600, it's not especially noisy, but you can see the noise when you look at an image at 1:1 on screen. Pixel-peeping noise at 1:1 at ISO 1600 on an image approaching 50 MP is not a disappointment by any rational standard, but it is when the last image you looked at is ISO 64. It doesn't have that large-format look at 1600 that it does at low ISOs (of course, who ever shot large format at ISO 1600)? It's as good as any camera I know of at ISO 1600, and better than most, and I'd happily print it at 20x30, but the disappointment is that I know what it's capable of at low ISO. DPReview's image quality test shows this well, and, for those who know either the D850 or the A7rIII, the DPReview test shows that they both do the same thing. Don't get me wrong - it's still very, very good - but it's capable of more...

Here are some things to think about - not actual advantages or disadvantages, and not Nikon's doing, but inherent to this class of camera.

You don't have the depth of field you think you have, if you are coming from a camera with a smaller sensor or less resolution. This is true of any high-resolution FF camera, and I suspect it's even more true of MF digital. The sensor size is one factor, but the high resolution is another - it's so sharp that you notice very quickly as that sharpness fades.

It eats memory cards for lunch, and computers for dinner. It's fully capable of writing nearly 130 megabytes to the card in one image (14-bit NEF plus large/fine JPEG). Nikon claims a 14-bit, uncompressed NEF alone is 85.1 MB - capacity on the card suggests that either this is a little smaller than reality, or the JPEGs are really big (I don't have my laptop hooked up to my RAID right now, so I can't check which file is big). Anyway, with all the quality options turned on (and why turn them off on a camera this capable), you only get around 500 files on a 64 GB card. Of course, any film camera capable of this kind of quality got one shot on each side of the film holder  :) The move to XQD probably made sense, due to the speed and reliability of the cards, but, unless you have a D5 or a D850, you don't have any, and they're expensive. A firmware update will bring CFExpress compatibility, and those are supposed to be cheaper (the disadvantage is that we'll probably see low-quality ones pretty quickly - Sony keeping a tight rein on XQD means they're expensive, but there are no counterfeits).

A 2017 15" MacBook Pro handles most edits smoothly in real time, but building Smart Previews for a card full of those huge files takes a long time. I haven't tried really time-consuming things like pano stitching, but I suspect that will make anything except a Cray feel slow.

Do you want/need one:

If you never print - no. The files overwhelm any digital display device on the market right now. A really good monitor will show off some of the other special qualities (the noiselessness and DR), but only a substantial print will show the full capabilities of the sensor.

If you like to shoot sports and action most of the time - no. I don't do that often, and haven't tried it yet with the Z7, but people who have don't like the AF all that well, and you'll want higher shutter speeds that will push it out of the low ISO range where the image quality is at its most special.

If you don't care about the size and weight - not yet. A D850 will give you essentially the same sensor in a package with better AF speed, broader lens compatibility and longer battery life. The Z-mount is an important technical advantage for the Z7, but the line of Z-mount lenses so far is limited. The one exception might be if your other camera is a D850, and you are deciding between a second body and something different.

If you are looking for the absolute finest image quality you can get in a very portable package - emphatically YES! It's a 4x5" you can carry for 20 miles with a backpack full of food, water and tent and shoot handheld at 1/20 of a second, getting a few hundred images on a card. If this is what you want, there is nothing on the market that comes close right now. The D850 is twice the weight with a zoom as sharp, the A7r mkIII is heavier with any comparable lens (the 24-70 "Zeiss" doesn't hold a candle to the 24-70 Nikkor, leaving the Sony shooter with the superb, but heavy G-Master or perhaps the 24-105), has severe sealing flaws, and handles much less well (if you have an A7r II or III and are happy with it, there's absolutely no reason to switch). The other competitors are the X1D and the GFX 50 R, both of which lose on lens weight and lack any sort of stabilization with most lenses. The GFX is a surprising amount larger in person - I had expected it to be about the size of a Z7 or other substantial mirrorless camera, although differently shaped. It's really about the size of a D850 (or a 5D mk IV if you prefer). It is the size of a Mamiya 6, or one of the Fuji 645 rangefinders, the "Texas Leicas" of film days, and the lenses are larger.

If you're looking for higher image quality coming from any mirrorless system other than Sony full frame - yes, if you understand its limitations. It doesn't have Fuji's superb lens lineup, although Nikon is committed to getting lenses out there, and it's not going to focus like an E-M1 mk II. It does offer files on another level, even from Fuji's excellent 24 MP images. I'm keeping my substantial Fuji system, at least until there are native (non-adapted) Nikkors that do what all my Fujinons do.

If you're coming from Sony full frame - no, unless you're unhappy with something specific that the Nikon does better. If you have a 24 MP Sony body and any investment in lenses and want a sensor like this, why not an A7r mk III? If you already have an A7r mk II or III, the image quality difference will be minor, and you'll actually lose battery life if you have a mk III. The three situations where I might give it any consideration coming from Sony full-frame are: if you aren't happy with the 24-70 "Zeiss" and don't want the weight of the G-Master (if the 24-70 is a bread and butter lens for you), OR if the Sony's weather sealing is keeping you from photographing when you want to, OR if you dislike the ergonomics of the Sony strongly.

If you're coming from a DSLR system you like: If it's Nikon, a Z7 would be a great addition - start with a body, an FTZ adapter and a 24-70. If it's Canon, I'd wait to see what's next in EOS-R bodies. No, the first body isn't even close to a Z7, but they didn't build those lenses for that body... If it's Pentax or something else odd, the Z7 is worth a very close look - it's a great choice if it matches your shooting style.
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SrMi

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2018, 11:53:23 pm »

Thank you for the write-up.
When mentioning Precision AF, do you mean Pinpoint AF?
Why do you use uncompressed instead of lossless compressed RAW?
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2018, 12:01:33 am »

Yes to pinpoint AF - I just forgot exactly what Nikon calls it

I don't trust that Lossless is truly lossless, rather than merely "visually lossless" - maybe it is truly lossless and I'm crazy...
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johnvanatta

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2018, 01:28:58 am »

I would add: if you're coming from smaller formats, you've probably heard "FF is better at low light". It's not so simple with the Z7. For starters, while the 24-70 is quite good at f4, especially near center, it sings at f5.6. And of course the sensor yearns for ISO 64. Compared to the m43 2.8 zooms with 200 native ISO, that's almost 4 stops thirstier . Sure, you don't have to turn IQ all the way up like that, but the advantages the Z7 offers fade quickly if you don't.

I've never heard of lossless compression being anything except truly lossless. It'd be scandalous if it was not--lossless compression is extremely widespread (.zip files) and well understood. It's why Sony took so much heat for not having it in earlier generations.
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gkroeger

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2018, 08:44:50 am »

There are many well-proven lossless compression algorithms, some are even taught in introductory programming classes. This is why it is surprising that Sony still do not offer one! With Sony, you get either lossy compression or uncompressed options. Perhaps they feel that the needed processor time isn't worth it with UHS-II cards? Still a bit annoying.
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BJL

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2018, 10:57:56 am »

I would add: if you're coming from smaller formats, you've probably heard "FF is better at low light". It's not so simple with the Z7.
Indeed, because the more precise statement is that “larger [effective] aperture diameters are better in low light” and that is what you get with a larger format, longer focal length for equal FOV, and the same aperture ratio and exposure time (so equal “ISO”, aka exposure index). Aperture diameter being focal length divided by aperture ratio.

Actually, with equal aperture size, smaller sensors can have a slight advantage: smaller photosites gathering equal photon counts have less read noise. That is what the “dual ISO” sensor design mitigates, by effectively reducing photosite size for low light shooting.

One nice trend I see lately is more options to trade away some of the huge improvements in low light sensitivity for other virtues like good but less bulky lenses, such as good f/4 zooms. (Pushing resolution up is another facet: improving detail with roughly equal “per pixel” performance is one use of technological progress.)
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Christopher

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2018, 01:27:02 pm »

I think one part you pointed out is why I enjoy the GFX and hate using all these small mirrorless cameras. The size just isn’t comfortable. The GFX just feels so much better as do most normal DSLRs when carrying them around hiking.


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Christopher Hauser
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2018, 03:50:09 pm »

To Johnvanatta's point: you're exactly right - it's thirsty for light not because it has to be (it's just fine at higher ISOs, and at least the 24-70 is quite good wide open - I have no reason to think the primes are not and every reason to think they are, although I haven't used them), but because its performance in the sweet spot isso good. It has a sweet spot where it's a handholdable 4x5" camera, or something close to it.
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kers

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #8 on: November 11, 2018, 11:51:38 am »

I just used the Z7 for a few days with the F-adapter and the two lenses.
My reference is the D850...and a bunch of very good lenses.

My current findings:
body:
very much like the size and weight of the Z7.
sensor is comparable with d850 quality.
Very much like the endless way to customize buttons on the Z7 - There are no buttons on the left side of the screen, but now you can address every button to you own needs and also have 3 custom modes.
You can do everything fast with one hand.
i tend to use a loup on my d850- now everything can be done in the viewfinder. A great EVF i must say.
i uses the camera for low light shooting and architecture... so not so much for swift action. the AF is very good for that need.
It takes some time to find focus in dark situations ( as the d850 has when using live mode). But is is very accurate.
Good metering ( as it is done on the sensor it is more precise i find)
very silent shutternoise- can be used in almost every occasion and there is an option for a real silent shutter.
IBIS- makes my nikkor F-lenses VR!
Battery - holds better than expected - did 650 images on 50%
No elegant wireless remote _ the app is not very handy - it should be a straight forward built in solution
-
video is very good quality ( downsamples 8K i hear) and the AF tracking and is very good- faces coming towards  are kept sharp in a very natural way.
(you can also change the speed of your own done AF change)
have not much experience with video so cannot compare to real video cameras., but this AF is a great plus over the d850.

- lenses
in general-
both lenses are very straight forward- no strange curvings in sharpness that i have seen
unlike others i have no problems using them with manual focus ( focus by wire)
They have a flat field at infinity making them useful for landscape/ architecture.
 F11 is already muddy and less sharp
i do not like that i cannot put lens distortion OFF with these native lenses... it bothers my workflow.

35mm 1.8 - good lens , but not perfect. good coatings - sharp center, but not so good extreme corners..till f 5.6
24-70mm f4 - very good zoom without any weak points. (a bit of purple fringing at 24mm f4)
the whole image is already good wide open in the entire zoom range.
In fact the zoom 35mm at f4 at infinity has better corners than the 35mm 1.8 at F4... (central area is sharper for the fixed focal)
agreed: f5.6 is best for this zoom.

bottomline- d850 can do some more but also some less... both are very good cameras

Lenses ; i like the 24-70 zoom very much also for its low size and weight. ( camera + zoom 1kg)
but in the case of fixed focals i want more quality that equals the sensor also in the corners.

« Last Edit: November 11, 2018, 02:32:09 pm by kers »
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Pieter Kers
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #9 on: November 11, 2018, 12:27:24 pm »

1 kg (a little over 2 lb) for that image quality in a really rugged package is one of the special things about the Z7... There simply isn't anything else as easy to hike with that comes close to the quality... Sony doesn't have the sealing, and the weakness of the 24-70 f4 "Zeiss" means a substantially heavier lens, probably the G-Master (come on Sony, fix the seals (Imaging Resource test) and get a 24-70 f4 G-Master out there). Canon doesn't (yet) have a mirrorless body worthy of their glass (I firmly believe it's coming, and that we'll live in interesting times).
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lightskyland

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2018, 11:14:18 am »

1 kg (a little over 2 lb) for that image quality in a really rugged package is one of the special things about the Z7... There simply isn't anything else as easy to hike with that comes close to the quality... Sony doesn't have the sealing, and the weakness of the 24-70 f4 "Zeiss" means a substantially heavier lens, probably the G-Master (come on Sony, fix the seals (Imaging Resource test) and get a 24-70 f4 G-Master out there). Canon doesn't (yet) have a mirrorless body worthy of their glass (I firmly believe it's coming, and that we'll live in interesting times).

You were using the wrong lens. The Sony 24-105 (which is a MUCH better zoom range for landscapes than a 24-70) is much better than the Sony 24-70/4, and obviates any need for a new 24-70/4. As for weather sealing, the Sony offers it, and my A7R3 has been out in the rain many times including last Friday without any issues. And the Sony has tons of great small landscape lenses (CVs, Loxias, etc.) while Nikon doesn't want to allow Zeiss and others to mount lenses on the Z series. Oh, and no shadow banding with the Sonys - a very big deal for my landscape photography.
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kers

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2018, 11:31:46 am »

You were using the wrong lens. The Sony 24-105 (which is a MUCH better zoom range for landscapes than a 24-70) is much better than the Sony 24-70/4, and obviates any need for a new 24-70/4. As for weather sealing, the Sony offers it, and my A7R3 has been out in the rain many times including last Friday without any issues. And the Sony has tons of great small landscape lenses (CVs, Loxias, etc.) while Nikon doesn't want to allow Zeiss and others to mount lenses on the Z series. Oh, and no shadow banding with the Sonys - a very big deal for my landscape photography.
relax... we are not in a fight
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Pieter Kers
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience... (Printing big)
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2018, 05:30:53 pm »

I just had my first chance to print big from the Z7 - I have a 24" Canon Pro-2000, and I went as big as the printer will go (~24x36" - the printer has small margins, so it's not quite 24x36").

WOW! There's a real difference, a sharpness and level of detail that just isn't there in prints from 24 MP Fuji files (themselves very good). Looking at what the Z7 can do at low ISO, I'd say that even the best 24 MP camera is only "almost there" at 24x36". I wish I had something 36 MP hanging around to compare - it would probably be right in between (I have a little bit of older work on a couple of 36 MP cameras, although I've never backpacked with any of them). I've never shot seriously with any of the other 40+ MP BSI sensor cameras (I've handled all except the 5Ds at shows and in shops, but never taken any of them outside for a landscape shoot), and don't have a good file from any of them to compare with the Z7. I suspect all of them with a good lens would be right in the same range.

I hoped for this - if I hadn't, I wouldn't have spent the big bucks on the Z7. I didn't expect it to be quite this dramatic when I bought the camera. I suspected the prints might be something special as I looked at the files on screen, having never seen noiseless files like that before. Sitting down for a printing session today and looking at the three prints that resulted, they exceeded my hopes. Having printed 24x36" from a wide range of cameras from modern Fujis to 24 and 36 MP full-frame, and including scanned Velvia up to 6x9 cm on a good scanner, I can say without question that the Z7 visibly exceeds anything I have previously used.

Will it print larger than 24x36"? I don't have a 44" printer, but I'm looking around to see if there might be one I can try a print on (preferably a Canon Pro-4000, because my Pro-2000 ready files will just transfer). My local camera shop has one I might be able to use for a demo print. I suspect it will look very good.

Something to remember is that this is a small camera, with relatively small lenses and an excellent image stabilizer. It's not prohibitive to backpack with, including on trips of hundreds of miles. Galen Rowell got his Nikon FM2 up Everest, and the Z7 isn't substantially heavier (if you're carrying 5 or more rolls of film, the Z7 becomes lighter) , although it's a different shape. The 24-70 is the size and weight of a couple of old Nikkor primes that are covered in its range (a 24 or a 28 and a 50?). It's pixel-sharp down to 1/30 second, and sometimes below, without a tripod. Something heavily weather sealed the size of an FM2 that gets close to 4x5" image quality and doesn't need a tripod? That's a pretty good weight to performance ratio!

There are a few question that remain... One is "What about digital medium format?" So far, nobody has a body and, especially, lenses out there in the size range I can comfortably carry hundreds of miles, so I haven't really looked at them seriously. I suspect that the 50 MP bodies are going to be very, very close to the Z7 (and the other 40+ MP BSI options), because their slight resolution advantage and more significant pixel size advantage are largely counteracted by the much newer BSI sensor (the 50 MP MF sensor is nearly five years old and at least one full generation behind the Z7/D850 sensor, having first appeared in the Phase One IQ250 in January 2014). Newer medium format sensors with significant resolution advantages may be a different story.

A second is "how close are we to historic landscape options like 4x5" film?" I haven't shot or printed much 4x5", but the Z7 is clearly better than well-scanned 6x9 cm Velvia, so we're within one film size of 4x5". The (extremely wide) dynamic range of the Z7 is clearly well outside of anything any color film could ever capture. Some black and white films might be close.

The resolving limit of the human eye is ~130 MP, assuming 20/20 or better vision. If you are looking at a print with more resolution than that, there is no possible viewing distance where you can see all the detail while also taking in the whole print. A modern printer can hit that resolution - at 300 ppi (Canon), it's about 30 inches on the short axis, while a 360 ppi Epson can do it at about 24 inches - obviously depending on aspect ratio. The much higher resolution numbers sometimes quoted for printers (2400 dpi and above) aren't color resolution - they're for black and white lines where there's no dithering. We aren't there yet, but we're within sight of that limit. Assuming a very, very good lens, the Phase One IQ4 150 is actually above the limit. The Z7 and friends aren't, but they're resolving enough that other factors (how good is your lens? how clear is the glass over the print? is there a piece of furniture that keeps you from getting up really close?) may be at least as important as the resolution of the camera.

The dynamic range of our eye is still well outside what any camera can capture or any printer can get on paper...

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BJL

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience... (Printing big)
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2018, 07:31:08 pm »

I just had my first chance to print big from the Z7 - I have a 24" Canon Pro-2000, and I went as big as the printer will go (~24x36" - the printer has small margins, so it's not quite 24x36").

WOW! There's a real difference, a sharpness and level of detail that just isn't there in prints from 24 MP Fuji files (themselves very good). Looking at what the Z7 can do at low ISO, I'd say that even the best 24 MP camera is only "almost there" at 24x36".
Hardly a surprise (depending on how closely you viewed the prints) given that 24MP = 6000x4000 pixels at 36"x24" is only about 167ppi vs the usual guideline of 200ppi to 300ppi for typical viewing distances like 12" to 15" (and maybe more like 400ppi for fine high contrast detail, like black text on a white background). Or to put it another way, about 3000 to 4000 pixels per viewing distance.

The resolving limit of the human eye is ~130 MP, assuming 20/20 or better vision.
I do not have much respect for that number—it seems to be based of taking the angular resolution of the central part of the retina and then extrapolating over the whole retina, including parts that provide only peripheral vision. A more useful measure is angular resolution in and near the fovea, which seems to be about one minute or arc for good human eyes, so resolving details down to between 1/3000th and 1/4000th of the viewing distance.

How do those 24"x36" prints compare when viewed from 24" away?

P. S. One limit on our eyes' angular resolution is diffraction from a pupil opening diameter of about 2-3mm in good light (a bit more for sharp-eyed youths!)—no matter how tiny and close together the cones and rods are on the retina.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 07:39:51 pm by BJL »
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Ray

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2018, 10:43:46 pm »

Dan,
Thanks for providing an excellent, comprehensive, and informative review of of the Z7. Much appreciated.
Since I do a lot of hiking, or just walking along tracks in natural environments, in order to keep fit as well as to take photos, the Nikon Z7 appeals to me very much.

My current 'walk-about' camera is the Nikon D5300 (DX) with 18-140 (F3.5-5.6) zoom attached. The total weight of the camera and lens is almost exactly the same as the total weight of the Z7 plus 24-70 F4 zoom, so I know how convenient such a weight is. It's hardly noticeable.

However, there are a couple of major disincentives which have prevented me from buying the Z7 with 24-70 F4.
The D5300 is 24 mp. The widest angle of 18mm translates to 27mm in full-frame terms, so the 24-70 S has a slight advantage in that respect. However, at the maximum focal length of 70mm (using the 24-70 S), a crop to the DX format results in a 20mp image with 105mm equivalent focal length. Cropping that image yet further to get a 140mm equivalent DX focal length, would presumably result in a lower quality image than my current D5300 can provide, with 18-140mm zoom.

Since I use the 18-140 on my D5300 at its 140mm focal length quite frequently, I see this limited range of the 24-70 S as a negative, or disincentive. A 24-105/F4, or better still, a 24-120/F4 would have been a much more attractive option, even if the weight had to increase by a couple of hundred grams.

The other disincentive, which has really little to do with Nikon, is due to the low value of the Aussie dollar. In the past, the Aussie dollar, at certain times, has been about equal in value to the US dollar. Today it's about 72 cents. A Z7 with 24-70 lens as a package, costs around 6,500 Aussie dollars. That's far too much, considering that my 'el cheapo' D5300 with 18-140 zoom would probably still have an image quality advantage at the long end.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2018, 11:46:09 pm »

The weakness of the Z-mount lens lineup right now is certainly longer focal lengths... One real option, although it adds some size and weight, is the newish 70-300 E AF-P FX lens on the FTZ adapter to go along with the native 24-70. That's a pretty decent lens, although probably not up to the standards of the 24-70. It's a much stronger lens than the 18-140, plus it will be using all of an excellent 45+MP sensor.

I would hope that Nikon releases a very good variable-aperture 70-300 in the Z-mount relatively soon? The small, light bodies deserve a reasonably sized telephoto option, and a variable aperture 70-300 is probably the lightest possible lens with some reach. Canon once had a DO lens in that range (same diffractive technology that Nikon calls PF), although it hasn't been updated since its release in 2004, and a 70-300 PF would be an interesting option for a Z-mount lens...

Whether or not each of us agrees with the decision, the reason the 24-70 Nikkor Z doesn't go past 70 is almost certainly size and weight. Look at it next to the 24-105 Canon for the EOS-R. They are similarly performing lenses with the same maximum aperture on mounts with similar constraints, both designed at the same time. Here's a Camerasize comparison... The Canon lens is twice the size of the Nikon.

I can easily tell the prints apart at 24", although certainly not from 6 feet away (unless the extra DR of the Z7 comes into play). The Fuji makes a good 24x36" print in isolation, but they fall apart a bit on close inspection, especially next to Z7 prints.

If I get at a 44" printer, I'll report back.

Dan
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BJL

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2018, 03:58:29 pm »

I saw a study which said that some huge proportion of photos in 35mm format are in that range 24-70mm, so I see how many are atttracted by the size-weight-speed-FOV trade-offs of the 24-70/4 ... but for me, 4X like 28-105 in 35mm format is the minimum for walking around with one lens, and I think I am far from alone in thinking that a 24-105 or 24-120 would be a popular addition.

Note though that stepping up to 105mm at the same f/4 does more than double the entrance pupil area, so front element bulk does have to roughly double. Lens size is one place where one inevitably pays to get the full benefits of a larger format!
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Ray

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2018, 09:18:32 pm »

I saw a study which said that some huge proportion of photos in 35mm format are in that range 24-70mm, so I see how many are attracted by the size-weight-speed-FOV trade-offs of the 24-70/4 ...

I suspect this is the main reason, BJL.

There's no doubt that focal length range together with maximum aperture is a major factor in lens weight and size, but it's not the only factor.

Checking the weight of the Nikkor 24-120/F4, I find it is only 710 gms, just 40 gms heavier than the shorter Canon 24-105/F4.
The latest Canon 24-70/F4 is 600 gms and the new Nikkor 24-70/F4 S is only 500 gms. As I understand, the new mount of the Z7, with its closer distance to the sensor, allows for the manufacture of smaller and lighter lenses. Is this correct?

If the current Nikkor AF-S 24-120/F4 G weighs only 710 gms, I suspect that Nikon could have produced a new 24-120/F4 S with a weight of around 600 gms. The total weight of the Z7 system with the more useful lens attached would then be 1.2 kg instead of 1.1 kg.

For me, the advantages of the longer range of a 24-120 would far outweigh the disadvantages of an extra 100 gms in weight and the slightly greater bulkiness of the lens.
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Dan Wells

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #18 on: December 09, 2018, 02:05:03 am »

The 24-70 S is a far sharper lens than the 24-120 - one classic complaint about the D850 is that there's really no normal zoom that does it justice except the very heavy 24-70 f2.8 - Nikon doesn't have a great f4 normal zoom in F mount... The Canon 24-105 R, which is closer in quality, is around 700 grams to get to 105mm on a similar mount to the Nikon Z mount, and substantially bulkier than the Nikkor. I'm sure that's what Nikon was thinking, whether you agree with their decision or not... A 24-120 of similar quality might be 800+ grams (or variable aperture with f5.6 on the long end)?

Personally, I'd rather see a 70-200 f4 PF or 70-300 f4.5-5.6 PF than another mid-aperture standard zoom. The PF lens could be quite reasonably sized, and would add significantly more reach than any high quality lens that started at 24mm. I'd like to see three really good, modestly sized f4 lenses that cover a huge range between them, with none being a compromised superzoom - we have the 24-70, we're promised a 14-30, the third partner is a tele that goes 70-200 or 70-300. If it's 300 at the long end, it'll probably have to be variable aperture unless PF makes a huge difference.

We'll probably see a wide-to-tele zoom sooner or later.Given that we have the 24-70, a 24-105 is probably too similar, but a 24-120, 24-135 or even something longer is a possibility at some point, probably variable aperture. Nobody's ever made a really good 24-200 - there are several FF examples of lenses like that (including Sony's 24-240 and some 28-300s), dating back into the film era.  None are great on high resolution sensors, almost all are variable aperture with limited apertures at the long end, and they get big as they get longer. Perhaps the ultimate example of travel-zoom audacity is Tamron's (APS-C) 18-400mm... That's the range of an all-in-one video lens! Needless to say, it's a lousy lens...
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Ray

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Re: Nikon Z7 real-world experience...
« Reply #19 on: December 09, 2018, 05:29:52 am »

The 24-70 S is a far sharper lens than the 24-120 -

And so it should be. The Nikkor 24-120/F4 was released towards the end of 2010. I think it's due for an upgrade, just as the 14-24/F2.8 is also due for an upgrade. As technology progresses, one expects better quality lenses.

Quote
A 24-120 of similar quality might be 800+ grams (or variable aperture with f5.6 on the long end)?

The wider mount of the Z7, which is also much closer to the sensor, is supposed to facilitate the construction of lighter, smaller, and higher resolution lenses (of same focal length and aperture). I see no reason to presume that a 24-120/F4 S, for the mirrorless Z7, would need to be 800+ grams when the old F-mount 24-120/F4 is only 710 grams.

The inclusion of VR or IS in a lens also surely adds to the weight, so the removal of that feature alone should reduce the weight by some degree.
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