Soft Proofing- most useful tools/sliders keeping it simple!

[Pete JF]

Hi folks,

I get frustrated when soft proofing in Lightroom and generally..

It's because there are so many choices in terms of how to lighten or darken images, change contrast..etc etc ewtc..you guys know what i mean, im pretty sure.

'Brightness' used to be more useful to me than 'exposure' for lightening..dont know why, but it seemd to work..as an example

Brightness is now gone..the Contrast slider has a strong effect on saturation..Curves..ugh, it goes on from there, but you get it..I know Im not the only one



Im very interested in hearing what your 'go to' tools / sliders are in Lightroom for basic Soft Proof adjustments..simpler the better is how this should be IMO

[howardm]

honestly, it's usually a bit of these (anywhere from 0 to 10-25)
(not necessarily all on any 1 print).

exposure or brightness (0.3 stop bump)
contrast bump
clarity (maybe)
saturation/vibrance bump
black/white point (don’t want to blow out white point or gloss differential)

On my go-to papers (Canson Baryta or Platine), it doesn't require much else but different papers, different settings.

[Mark D Segal]

Hi folks,

I get frustrated when soft proofing in Lightroom and generally..

It's because there are so many choices in terms of how to lighten or darken images, change contrast..etc etc ewtc..you guys know what i mean, im pretty sure.

'Brightness' used to be more useful to me than 'exposure' for lightening..dont know why, but it seemd to work..as an example

Brightness is now gone..the Contrast slider has a strong effect on saturation..Curves..ugh, it goes on from there, but you get it..I know Im not the only one



Im very interested in hearing what your 'go to' tools / sliders are in Lightroom for basic Soft Proof adjustments..simpler the better is how this should be IMO

I recommend you buy and read Martin Evening's latest Lr book, and more compact but at least as useful for your purposes his "Lightroom Transformations" book. You will learn a lot more from those resources than you will from a series of Forum posts.

That said, editing under softproof is no different than editing without softproof. Some people first edit without, then re-edit with softproof on. Because I know that my photos are being edited for printing with a specific paper and printer, I edit in softproof for that printer and paper from the get-go. Saves time and aggravation. Go down the tools in the order they are presented in Lr, generally. That order was designed to hit the most important general adjustments first and the fine points after. Makes a lot of sense for most photos. Use your common sense. If a photo is generally under-exposed, add Exposure. If it's mainly the shadows that are blocked-up, lighten with Shadows. If the highlights need taming, use Highlights. If the photo has an undesirable colour cast, use the Tint and Temp sliders to eliminate it etc., etc.

[Pete JF]

thanks Howard..appreciate that.

Mark, thank you, I'll try to read it..in the meantime, im very interested in hearing what workflows people have found that work for them.

[Rand47]

Check the videos section of LULA, there's a video that Jeff Schewe did that you might find helpful.  Not a tour de force on soft proofing, but very helpful in some of the basic considerations.

https://luminous-landscape.com/videos/back-to-the-print/soft-proofing-3/

I second Mark's recommendation for Martin's book(s).  Also Jeff Schewe's "The Digital Print."  There is a paperback copy still available at Amazon, apparently.
Rand

[digitaldog]

Quickie on LR soft proofing? http://digitaldog.net/files/LR4_softproof2.mov


Concepts apply in LR but this covers Photoshop:

Soft proofing in Adobe Photoshop CC
In this 33 minute video, I'll cover soft proofing in Adobe Photoshop CC:
What is sof proofing.
Setting up a soft proof.
Saving soft proof presets.
What the simluate ink and paper check boxes do, why to use them.
Making output specific edits in layer sets.
Working with soft proofing in full screen mode.
The Out of Gamut Overlay and why to ignore it.


High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/SoftProofingInPhotoshopCC.mp4
Low resolution (YouTube): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=njFgYba3lHU&feature=youtu.be

[Pete JF]

I'll check that Andrew..thanks..

As for starting off in Soft Proof mode when im editing images..It's often and almost always unrealistic to begin this way..for me.

I have a range of work and some times don't know what paper it's headed for..

But, it does get frustrating when you've arrived at something in editing that you're happy with on a good monitor and then you have to hit Soft proof..
It always feels a bit kludgy trying to re-arrive at what you had..so many choices..Im sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
after making basic moves in greater lightness/darkness values,
There always seems to be a certain contrast issue, almost a local contrast issue, a lack of 'tooth' that -contrast, curves, clarity, shadows..and the other more specific sliders (highlights etc) cant resolve to my satisfaction.

in my old system, not to beat a dead horse (Sony Artisan to my Epson 3800) I had much less of a problem and a very reliable workflow towards a print) things came together much more easily.

[Mark D Segal]

As for starting off in Soft Proof mode when im editing images..It's often and almost always unrealistic to begin this way..for me.

I have a range of work and some times don't know what paper it's headed for..

But, it does get frustrating when you've arrived at something in editing that you're happy with on a good monitor and then you have to hit Soft proof..

This is contradictory. You can't in one sentence say it's almost always unrealistic (whatever that means) to begin in softproof mode, and then in the next sentence say "some times don't know what paper it's headed for".

Let me suggest this: if it's only sometimes that you don't know what paper it's head for, that means most of the time you do know. Which in turn means that most of the time if you begin your editing from within softproof mode for that paper you will get it right the first time from the get-go. That's major. Now, if you happen to change your mind about the paper, or for some other reason need the same photo printed on another kind of paper, it's really not hard to make the adjustments from one paper to the next because you almost always know what the nature of those adjustments is: the big one is between PK and MK papers, and it is almost always adjustments to Clarity and Vibrance, perhaps a bit of Exposure and Contrast that will perceptually bridge much of the perceptual difference between them, always remembering that matte papers simply don't have the reflectance of glosss-type papers and therefore will never have an identical image appearance. Speaking from the personal experience of editing thousands of photographs in Lightroom, I believe this is a highly efficient workflow, including for re-purposing the outputs. But each to his own. You asked for suggestions, you got one:-).

[digitaldog]

As for starting off in Soft Proof mode when im editing images..It's often and almost always unrealistic to begin this way..for me.

I'm not (nor ever) suggested otherwise. Edit in the widest gamut working space you can. Soft proof and produce (if necessary), output specific edits when you're ready to print.

[Mark D Segal]

I'm not (nor ever) suggested otherwise. Edit in the widest gamut working space you can. Soft proof and produce (if necessary), output specific edits when you're ready to print.

Well, I beg to differ, and I'll tell you why: I started using Photoshop and then Lr as you and others recommend years ago, but I always found that because the output spaces that the photos are destined to are almost invariably narrower than "the widest gamut working space you can", I always found myself re-editing when it came to purposing the photos. With gloss-type papers the re-editing was less than for MK papers, but some required nonetheless. So then I asked myself - why bother with this procedure when I almost always know before I start how I intend to purpose the photo? So I just edit it for that purpose, knowing that if any time I wish to re-purpose it, I can simply create a virtual copy and tweak it a bit for the alternative purpose. It's that easy and reduces the need for reworking from about 100% down to perhaps 5%. This is a luxury of using an application such as Lr where nothing except the original capture is "forever" baked in. Apart from the difference of efficiency, it doesn't really matter whether one proceeds your way or my way. I'm just explaining what I have determined to be more efficient for what I do. I recognize of course that this may not suit every one; but since we are suggesting approaches to Pete, useful for him to have some options on the table he can experiment with.

[digitaldog]

Well, I beg to differ, and I'll tell you why: I started using Photoshop and then Lr as you and others recommend years ago, but I always found that because the output spaces that the photos are destined to are almost invariably narrower than "the widest gamut working space you can", I always found myself re-editing when it came to purposing the photos.

You beg to differ with who about what?


All editing in LR and ACR take place in a variant of ProPhoto RGB and thus it's color gamut, there's no way around that. Now if you've got rendered images in a fixed RGB working space that isn't ProPhoto RGB gamut, despite this fact, you may wish to consider if:
1. You want to edit them in the ACR engine and....
2. If you should have kept them in ProPhoto RGB from whatever source (usually raw) they came from. Hence my recommendation: Edit in the widest gamut working space you can.


That aside, you want to make a print (from any RGB working space of any sized gamut). Now you soft proof with the paper profile and select a RI you desire and based on that preview, you decide if you wish output specific edits and move forward; either as a Proof Copy (keeping the original without those output specific edits) or in Photoshop with a layer set with the output specific edits for that one output. You might have half a dozen layer sets for a dozen paper/printer combo's. And you keep all off until you need to use them. As you can see, this is far easier and more effective in LR using Proof Copies.
So no, I don't nor believe I've EVER recommend soft proofing from the get go. The opposite: make the image appear as you desire, as best you can, ideally with raw and metadata edits in the widest color space you can. Then when you're ready to make a print, soft proof and based on that, create output specific edits. All described in the video(s) I've produced on the subject.
Gamut size or otherwise, the output color space differs from the working space just based on RI among other factors. So you have to soft proof just to pick the RI for printing, then, IF necessary, you can edit that soft proofed 'copy' (VC or otherwise). That means, at the step in the workflow when you're ready to make that print, never before.
And no, the output space can be larger and narrower in some areas of color space than the working space. No printer can produce all of sRGB color gamut. The sizes and shapes of the two greatly differ.

[Mark D Segal]

You beg to differ with who about what?

I'm simply saying that if working in Lr with a raw file that can be edited in any number of soft proof variants one wants, it is efficient to start by editing for the output space to which the photo will be sent (assuming we know that in advance), and one can do it for any number of them, starting from either the raw original or one of the variants. For most people and most purposes, one or sometimes two would usually be the most needed. Maybe a little different from how you do things, but completely satisfactory in both principle and practice.

[digitaldog]

I'm simply saying that if working in Lr with a raw file that can be edited in any number of soft proof variants one wants, it is efficient to start by editing for the output space to which the photo will be sent (assuming we know that in advance), and one can do it for any number of them, starting from either the raw original or one of the variants. For most people and most purposes, one or sometimes two would usually be the most needed. Maybe a little different from how you do things, but completely satisfactory in both principle and practice.

That's fine for you. But let's look over the history of the comments and by whom:

As for starting off in Soft Proof mode when im editing images..It's often and almost always unrealistic to begin this way..for me.

Again, I never suggested this. So Pete and I are in agreement. I'm not sure why he suggested I felt otherwise. Maybe his comments was directed at you.

[Mark D Segal]

I'm pretty sure Pete's comment was addressed to me.

[faberryman]

I've never used Soft Proofing. I can't even find it in the Develop module on the latest version of LR Classic CC.

[digitaldog]

I've never used Soft Proofing. I can't even find it in the Develop module on the latest version of LR Classic CC.

In Develop, type the S key in LR Classic.

[Mark D Segal]

In Develop, type the S key in LR Classic.

faberryman: And it toggles, so type S again when you want to turn it off. When you turn it on, it brings up a menu just under the histogram that allows you to select the profile to which you wish to softproof. If the profile you wish to use is not in the menu, you need to add it by clicking on "other" at the bottom of the list of the profiles already on hand, and then checking the boxes of the profiles you wish to show in Lr's softproof profile choices. If you've never used it, you probably haven't missed it, or you aren't printing from Lr. But even if you are, and if you are printing to a very wide gamut output arrangement (for example an Epson SC-P5000 on Epson Legacy Baryta or Ilford Gold Fibre Silk papers), the differences between the softproof version and the non soft-proof version can be quite subtle.

[faberryman]

faberryman: And it toggles, so type S again when you want to turn it off. When you turn it on, it brings up a menu just under the histogram that allows you to select the profile to which you wish to softproof. If the profile you wish to use is not in the menu, you need to add it by clicking on "other" at the bottom of the list of the profiles already on hand, and then checking the boxes of the profiles you wish to show in Lr's softproof profile choices. If you've never used it, you probably haven't missed it, or you aren't printing from Lr. But even if you are, and if you are printing to a very wide gamut output arrangement (for example an Epson SC-P5000 on Epson Legacy Baryta or Ilford Gold Fibre Silk papers), the differences between the softproof version and the non soft-proof version can be quite subtle.

Got it. Thanks.

[dchew]

My list is pretty similar:
Contrast
Whites
Blacks
Clarity
Dehaze
Vibrance

All of the above are doing similar things, but I tend to move each one in small increments. I find Dehaze helps if used very judiciously. Another “trick” I often use is to lessen the Contrast slider combined with increasing some of the others, and likewise lowering Saturation combined with increasing Vibrance.

I too am almost always printing on semigloss papers, so the adjustments are small. I just replaced my matte black cartridge and noticed the expiry date was 2011. Must have been in there a while...

Dave

honestly, it's usually a bit of these (anywhere from 0 to 10-25)
(not necessarily all on any 1 print).

exposure or brightness (0.3 stop bump)
contrast bump
clarity (maybe)
saturation/vibrance bump
black/white point (don’t want to blow out white point or gloss differential)

On my go-to papers (Canson Baryta or Platine), it doesn't require much else but different papers, different settings.

[Pete JF]

Hi Andrew,

I was for sure responding to Mark Segal's post at the beginning of this thread in expressing my preference for beginning my editing in the conventional Lightroom space vs Starting off editing in Soft Proof mode.

I edited my post to make it clear..was pretty vague.

Ty.