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Author Topic: Impact of the 44x33 mm BSI 100 MP sensor on the MFD market, what is your take?  (Read 1108 times)

ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

Fuji had made a development announcement for the GFX 100S. That new camera will have:

  • A 100 MP 44x33 backside illuminated sensor
  • Image stabilisation
  • Lenses optimized for the 44x33 mm sensor size
  • Expected price, around 10k$US.

Two important factors are BSI and optimized lenses.

BSI much reduces cross talk, vignetting the two things that used to be called lens cast.

Designing the lenses for the sensor format has some advantages, they will be sharper and there will also be less non image building light in the lens barrel.

So, my guess is that a 100MP sensor on the 44x33 mm sensor will yield as good image as the present 100 MP sensor on 54x41 mm.

Making a 44x33 100 MP back for say Alpa/ARCA may make a lot of sense. It would avoid a lot of present day issues with lens cast and offer a generous amount of shift with many lenses.

What is your take?

Best regards
Erik

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tcdeveau

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I think youíre probably right regarding 33x44mm 100mp BSI vs present 40x54mm 100mp.

Given the prelim tests weíve seen with the IQ4 and tech cams, I also think thereís a lot of potential for a 33x44mm back on tech cams. It seems like such a back wont come from P1, which is a shame IMHO, so we may never know.  I wonder if Hasselblad will make one for the H7D?
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Paul2660

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At 10K, per body, I don't feel there will be a huge rush to market for this camera.  The current GFX price point is just above the top end 35mm DSLR offerings from all the current companies, but to leap to 10K, many will hold off.   You can get a lot done with the current BSI chips from Sony in the Nikon or Sony 35mm DSLR lineup.    Also the need for 100MP is limited as the vast majority of people taking digital images, prefer the much more simpler phone cameras.  Photographers making a decision to jump up to a 10K body, or stay with a very good 3.5K priced 35mm body that odds are will grow to 70MP in a year or so may not want to move to the Fuji.  Only time will tell.    If the Fuji had come in around 8.5K, or 7999.00 I think that the growth and acceptance would have been greater. 

At 10K, you will get some new business from photographers on the fence looking at a larger cost outlay for a digital back setup, but I just don't see many 35mm photographers move to the 100MP due to costs.  Also those looking at a used IQ3100 or other P1 back, the 10K new camera may make more sense.  It will be interesting to see if Fuji has a Value Add type warranty offering or at least a warranty offering past 1 year basic. 

The added features for the 100MP Fuji are still way out there, like Pixel shift, and IBIS etc.  I have not seen anything official from Fuji on this beside IBIS.  The body IMO is much larger, and thus heavier.  I would have preferred a non integrated battery grip as one of the features of the GFX I like is size, and the new body is huge. 

Nikon IMO missed a big opportunity with the Z cameras to implement a pixel shift solution, not surprising to me, as they still don't offer a GPS or built in intervalometer in any of their cameras.  (Sure the Astro camera has a intervalometer but that's not main line).  These are both easy and quick features to add to a chip, look at any phone (GPS) and the Pentax K1 (GPS and intervalometer and IBIS).  Nikon does not tend to add large feature sets to their cameras, they just make a new model, so the current Z is done.

As far as the chip 100MP BSI, issues like diffraction will come into play even with Fuji's built in lens adjustments.  If the chip shows as much promise as the 150MP that P1 is now starting to ship, there may be more photographers willing to make the switch and move up. 

It's going to apparently be a mid year 2019 release anyway, so lots of time to see what happens.  Things Fuji might try to remedy:

1.  Move the stupid Q button, off the back of the grip.
2.  Figure out how to better use Focus peaking
3.  Figure out how to display the image correctly at 100% view in Live View (Current solution is less than adequate for detail focusing IMO) exactly opposite
     to P1's Live View at 100%
4.  Greatly improve AF in low light, or low contrast solutions, as currently in such conditions AF is very difficult to get a good solution and Live View again
     is pretty worthless for low light detail focus analysis

Paul C

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eronald

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In the space of two camera generations Fuji has gone from being the happenstance outsider to the poster child of high-megapixel digital still photography . There is no real way to know what market acceptance of the new Fuji will be.

In my opinion, Fuji has a domestic market segment they want to address to prevent outward migration from their brand. Namely, the landscape photo fanatics in Japan. Then they wish to serve the marriage photo studios in Japan, Korea and maybe China who want good quality but also to be seen using a flashy camera their customers do not own. These studios will also do corporate work with group shots and some local advertising work where size does start to count.  Existing professional GFX-50 users who like the results and want to upgrade also come  into play.

All counted, I think the above provides more than enough financial incentive for Fuji for releasing a new high end body, Pentax also made money off the 645 digital series which many on this forum have good things to say about.

Whether then pro photographers the world over will flock to Fuji is a different question, and one which is dependent on the camera's representation in rental, repair availability, its social acceptance, and other effects which are pretty much unpredictable in advance. But I'd say that the speed at which Fuji has raised brand awareness in medium format is pretty amazing.

Fuji should do everything in their power to help Hasselblad survive. Two medium format systems will fare better than one alone, just like a Starbucks and a Pizza next to each other will fare better than either alone. The time when japanese 35mm competition put the German firms out of business was also the time when photographers lost access to the best lensmakers.

Edmund


At 10K, per body, I don't feel there will be a huge rush to market for this camera.  The current GFX price point is just above the top end 35mm DSLR offerings from all the current companies, but to leap to 10K, many will hold off.   You can get a lot done with the current BSI chips from Sony in the Nikon or Sony 35mm DSLR lineup.    Also the need for 100MP is limited as the vast majority of people taking digital images, prefer the much more simpler phone cameras.  Photographers making a decision to jump up to a 10K body, or stay with a very good 3.5K priced 35mm body that odds are will grow to 70MP in a year or so may not want to move to the Fuji.  Only time will tell.    If the Fuji had come in around 8.5K, or 7999.00 I think that the growth and acceptance would have been greater. 

At 10K, you will get some new business from photographers on the fence looking at a larger cost outlay for a digital back setup, but I just don't see many 35mm photographers move to the 100MP due to costs.  Also those looking at a used IQ3100 or other P1 back, the 10K new camera may make more sense.  It will be interesting to see if Fuji has a Value Add type warranty offering or at least a warranty offering past 1 year basic. 

The added features for the 100MP Fuji are still way out there, like Pixel shift, and IBIS etc.  I have not seen anything official from Fuji on this beside IBIS.  The body IMO is much larger, and thus heavier.  I would have preferred a non integrated battery grip as one of the features of the GFX I like is size, and the new body is huge. 

Nikon IMO missed a big opportunity with the Z cameras to implement a pixel shift solution, not surprising to me, as they still don't offer a GPS or built in intervalometer in any of their cameras.  (Sure the Astro camera has a intervalometer but that's not main line).  These are both easy and quick features to add to a chip, look at any phone (GPS) and the Pentax K1 (GPS and intervalometer and IBIS).  Nikon does not tend to add large feature sets to their cameras, they just make a new model, so the current Z is done.

As far as the chip 100MP BSI, issues like diffraction will come into play even with Fuji's built in lens adjustments.  If the chip shows as much promise as the 150MP that P1 is now starting to ship, there may be more photographers willing to make the switch and move up. 

It's going to apparently be a mid year 2019 release anyway, so lots of time to see what happens.  Things Fuji might try to remedy:

1.  Move the stupid Q button, off the back of the grip.
2.  Figure out how to better use Focus peaking
3.  Figure out how to display the image correctly at 100% view in Live View (Current solution is less than adequate for detail focusing IMO) exactly opposite
     to P1's Live View at 100%
4.  Greatly improve AF in low light, or low contrast solutions, as currently in such conditions AF is very difficult to get a good solution and Live View again
     is pretty worthless for low light detail focus analysis

Paul C
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 10:43:58 AM by eronald »
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BJL

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At 10K, per body, I don't feel there will be a huge rush to market for this camera.  The current GFX price point is just above the top end 35mm DSLR offerings from all the current companies, but to leap to 10K, many will hold off.   You can get a lot done with the current BSI chips from Sony in the Nikon or Sony 35mm DSLR lineup.
I agree that there will not be a huge rush up from 35mm format ó as I have said elsewhere I suspect that the pricing of the Fujifilm GFX 50R is so low in part due to using a discount EOL sensor from over four years ago, and even the GX 50S and Hasselblad XC1 have probably benefited from an "age discount" from Sony of that sensor and selling at low margins to build interest in their new systems by launching at attractive prices.

The GFX 100S will be the first "bigger than 35mm" mirrorless camera launched with an up-to-date sensor, and so its pricing may be be predictor of where things are going. So I expect share to come mostly from 54x41 format and MF DSLRs.
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eronald

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The GFX 100S will be the first "bigger than 35mm" mirrorless camera launched with an up-to-date sensor, and so its pricing may be be predictor of where things are going. So I expect share to come mostly from 54x41 format and MF DSLRs.

At $10K a 100MP MF system that can focus properly AND has CAPTURE ONE  is probably the bargain of the year for a lot of legacy Phamiya users. It's the obvious upgrade - keep the workflow, get a decent camera body.

Edmund
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tcdeveau

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Keep in mind if $10k (or $9995) is the MSRP for the GFX-100, im guessing it wonít be tough to get one cheaper than that as long as you donít need one on day one. Retailer sales on X-bodies and the GFX-50s are very common.

The GFX100 is great with an unheard of price/performance ratio in MFD, but it wonít work on my Alpa STC (at least not yet). I still think thereís a market for a 33x44mm 100mp Digital back (albeit a smaller market than for the GFX), as I imagine there are a good number of tech cam users out there that would like the benefits of the BSI MF sensor, but do not need 150 mp and donít want to pay for the IQ4 150mp, whether bought outright or via upgrade.
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BJL

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Keep in mind if $10k (or $9995) is the MSRP for the GFX-100, im guessing it wonít be tough to get one cheaper than that as long as you donít need one on day one.
True; I see a good chance of US$8,000 or so in a while, and maybe $7000 for a more basic model ó but high resolution 35mm format cameras are coming to market at about one third that price, and are also likely to be discounted as age and competitive pressure dictates, so the big price moat between these two "big" and "bigger" sensor formats will likely persist. And lens prices tend to add to the total system cost gap!

The GFX100 ... wonít work on my Alpa STC (at least not yet). I still think thereís a market for a 33x44mm 100mp Digital back (albeit a smaller market than for the GFX), as I imagine there are a good number of tech cam users out there that would like the benefits of the BSI MF sensor, but do not need 150 mp and donít want to pay for the IQ4 150mp, whether bought outright or via upgrade.
That makes sense, and the new BSI sensors have promise of working better with technical cameras, so what are the prospects for new 44x33 backs? Phase One has declared itself out of the 44x33 market, and AFAIK Hasselblad's product line for separately purchased backs is now at the high end of 54x41 multi-shot. Is Hasselblad also on the way to dropping 44x33 format backs?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 03:39:27 PM by BJL »
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faberryman

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Phase One has declaring itself out of the 44x33 market, and AFAIK Hasselblad's product line for separately purchased backs is now at the high end of 54x41 multi-shot. Is Hasselblad also on the way to dropping 44x33 format backs?
Hasselblad H series and Phase One have to have something to distinguish themselves from GFX/X1D. The extra sensor size will come at quite a premium now. Will art directors focus on MP or sensor size when specifying shoots?
« Last Edit: November 03, 2018, 05:53:22 PM by faberryman »
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ben730

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So, my guess is that a 100MP sensor on the 44x33 mm sensor will yield as good image as the present 100 MP sensor on 54x41 mm.

Making a 44x33 100 MP back for say Alpa/ARCA may make a lot of sense. It would avoid a lot of present day issues with lens cast and offer a generous amount of shift with many lenses.


Erik
I think you are right.
I really don't understand why P1 don't make a 44 x 33, 100 MP back.
For tech cam and view cam work (architecture + products) it's the best format for me.
(More movement, more depth of field, center performance of lenses...).

Currently I'm using an IQ150 and I would immediately change to an IQ4 100 (44 x 33) with less lens cast.
The full medium format sensors have no real advantages except resolution for me.

I don't need more resolution but I like less (1.) lens cast, (2.) more dynamic range, (3.) and this is (1.a+ most important): Better lens coatings against back light (!!!).
Because P1 is unfortunately not interested any more in clients like me, I hope Fuji will make a camera or a back
to adapt the new 44 x 33 Sensor to a Cambo WRS, Alpa STC, Arca etc. with all the great Rodenstock wide angle lenses.....
...or they design the new Fuji Tech Cam, with independent horizontal and vertical sensor movements... :)
The Hasselblad solutions are not very competitive, unfortunately, so far.

Regards,
Ben


 

Joe Towner

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The new 100mp will change the DMF market as a whole.  There are folks who will want the Phase or Hass solution, but it's going to be hard to look at the numbers and justify the differences.

Yes, there are specific features or things that folks will want from the MF gear of old.  There are 2 types of photographers, those who are shooting for perfection, and those who are shooting artistically who will work with the characteristic of the gear they are using.  If you're going for perfection, the latest Fuji gear will be the answer.  Everything else will adjust accordingly price wise.

Everything is a tradeoff.
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BernardLanguillier

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To my eyes the revolution isnít resolution, it is on sensor AF.

Cheers,
Bernard

eronald

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To my eyes the revolution isnít resolution, it is on sensor AF.

Cheers,
Bernard

The revolution is computational photography. Imagery from my iPhone is out of this world. The large sensor's abilities are being wasted because companies can't afford to put $500 of computer chips in their cameras.

Edmund
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BernardLanguillier

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The revolution is computational photography. Imagery from my iPhone is out of this world. The large sensor's abilities are being wasted because companies can't afford to put $500 of computer chips in their cameras.

I would agree that among the MF entrants Hasselblad is in a far better position thanks to their belonging to DJI.

But for now, in the realm of traditional photography, the one thing that I find of practical value with the GFX100, and IMHO game changing, is its AF.

Cheers,
Bernard

ErikKaffehr

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Hi,

ADs probably don't see the sensor size but the files coming out of the camera.

Best regards
Erik

Hasselblad H series and Phase One have to have something to distinguish themselves from GFX/X1D. The extra sensor size will come at quite a premium now. Will art directors focus on MP or sensor size when specifying shoots?
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Jager

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The revolution is computational photography. Imagery from my iPhone is out of this world. The large sensor's abilities are being wasted because companies can't afford to put $500 of computer chips in their cameras.

Edmund

+1

I've denigrated smartphone photography for a long time.  You know, the tiny sensors and awful ergonomics and all the rest.  But at the end of the day it's hard to argue with results. 

The smartphone makers have stolen a march on all the traditional camera makers.  While they (the Hasselblad's and Phase One's and Fuji's and Nikon's of the world) fiddle around with sensors and optics, computational photography technology is eating their lunch.
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Dan Wells

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Computational photography allows an algorithm to radically change an image, rather than capturing some version of reality and allowing the photographer to choose . I'm actually better at playing "spot the iPhone" on web-sized images from the XS and XS Max than I am pitted against most of the previous generation or two (the AI editing is really easy to spot)... We all edit our images, but hopefully we do it with thought and consideration of what the image is trying to say. While the fake bokeh can produce a pleasing snapshot, it doesn't look like a photograph. The HDR effect relies on some extremely high ISO exposures (1600+ on the tiny sensor, which is equivalent to something like 25600 or 51200 on a larger sensor). It DOES add dynamic range to the inherent 5-6 stops on those little phone sensors, but it does it at the cost of an enormous amount of noise. Maybe I'm an old-timer, but I'd like to be able to make the choices about how to alter an image myself...

What I think the 100 MP BSI sensor does is that it restores a performance advantage to medium format. If the D850/Z7 sensor and the A7rII/A7rIII sensor don't quite perform like the much older 50 MP 33x44mm sensor, they're very, very close. In many senses, the competition to "small MF" isn't traditional MF - it's less than a kilogram of fully weathersealed Z7 offering much the same image. The 100 MP sensor should have essentially the same per-pixel image quality as the best 24x6mm sensors, but twice as many of those pixels. It means that Fuji's competitor on the GFX is no longer Nikon or Sony, but Phase, and Fuji has a massive advantage in pricing, AF and ease of use over Phase.

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eronald

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+1

I've denigrated smartphone photography for a long time.  You know, the tiny sensors and awful ergonomics and all the rest.  But at the end of the day it's hard to argue with results. 

The smartphone makers have stolen a march on all the traditional camera makers.  While they (the Hasselblad's and Phase One's and Fuji's and Nikon's of the world) fiddle around with sensors and optics, computational photography technology is eating their lunch.

When I was attempting to be a photographer, even for simple portraits I spent my time fighting specular burnouts with makeup and later retouching - the iPhone does in one picture what would have taken me an hour of preparation and postprocessing, and loses less texture. And the fake bokeh is quite decent - at model 2.0. I guess by the time we will get to V.5 or V6 we should have really good lens and bokeh simulations.


I probably own as much decent camera equipment as most consumers :) but I don't bother to use a carry-around camera anymore. I did buy an app for the iPhone though, because saving the Raw files and manually adjusting the focus and exposure is really useful.

But the really unbeatable factor for the consumer is that you never need to download a card to the computer - stuff just gets "shared" and emailed straight away the minute you make the capture. I take a picture of my daily painting and post it to Instagram within a minute of completing the work. The old geeks in my art club own pricey dSLRS eg. Leica, but take days to process their stuff out to Flickr.

Edmund
« Last Edit: November 08, 2018, 08:22:57 PM by eronald »
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StoryinPictures

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When I was attempting to be a photographer, even for simple portraits I spent my time fighting specular burnouts with makeup and later retouching - the iPhone does in one picture what would have taken me an hour of preparation and postprocessing, and loses less texture. And the fake bokeh is quite decent - at model 2.0. I guess by the time we will get to V.5 or V6 we should have really good lens and bokeh simulations.


I probably own as much decent camera equipment as most consumers :) but I don't bother to use a carry-around camera anymore. I did buy an app for the iPhone though, because saving the Raw files and manually adjusting the focus and exposure is really useful.

But the really unbeatable factor for the consumer is that you never need to download a card to the computer - stuff just gets "shared" and emailed straight away the minute you make the capture. I take a picture of my daily painting and post it to Instagram within a minute of completing the work. The old geeks in my art club own pricey dSLRS eg. Leica, but take days to process their stuff out to Flickr.

Edmund

What is causing the specular burnouts--bad lighting, direct sun, UV reflective makeup, something else?
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TommyWeir

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For me, Fuji's announcement of the 100Mp sensor in addition to all the features they bring to their cameras is why my next system will be GFX.   Even if my first body is a 50Mp model.   I know the lenses are good, the color science is good, the features are excellent.  There's a path forward.
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