Z7 files via DNG Converter to C1

[jeremyrh]

While waiting for Phase One to get their act together and provide an update to C1 (*), I used DNG Converter to ... err ... convert some Z7 NEF files to DNG, and then imported them to C1. That worked in the sense that I had some images to look at, but not in the sense that they didn't look very "nice". In fact they looked very flat, such that to approximate the "real" image I had to crank up the Saturation to 70. Probably this means that I haven't understood the process very well and there's somewhere I need to apply a "film" profile of some description, but I don't know where.

Any suggestions gratefully accepted!!


(*) yes, I know they will eventually, and they have their own business priorities etc etc but if Adobe do it first there may come a point where I reconsider my decision to dump their subsciption products and be lured back to the dark side.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

While waiting for Phase One to get their act together and provide an update to C1 (*),

Hi Jeremyrh,

Maybe Nikon has not yet made a camera available to Phase One?
They need something to work with before they can make profiles.

I used DNG Converter to ... err ... convert some Z7 NEF files to DNG, and then imported them to C1. That worked in the sense that I had some images to look at, but not in the sense that they didn't look very "nice". In fact they looked very flat, such that to approximate the "real" image I had to crank up the Saturation to 70. Probably this means that I haven't understood the process very well and there's somewhere I need to apply a "film" profile of some description, but I don't know where.

Any suggestions gratefully accepted!!

I tried doing the same with a downloaded Z7 NEF->DNGconverter->DNG, and the result is not good indeed (wrong saturation and underexposed). There is only a selection possible of a DNG file Neutral or DNG Workspace profile, and by default, I use a linear tone curve response.

However, one can manually select any other ICC profile, e.g. the Nikon D850 profile, and with a saturation boost, it comes a lot closer to what it could/should have looked like. For the time being one can then use the Advanced Color Editor to adjust the response, and save that as a new (temporary Z7 DNG) ICC profile.

One can also join the Beta testing cycle, and get early access to things like profiles for new camera models.

Cheers,
Bart

[digitaldog]

While waiting for Phase One to get their act together and provide an update to C1 (*), I used DNG Converter to ... err ... convert some Z7 NEF files to DNG, and then imported them to C1.

They don't seem to care about DNG, and should simply stop allowing it's use OR (better) fix their products to support it correctly. I've asked too, I wanted to migrate to C1 but also found DNG issues of which they simply seem to ignore. Even as recently as a last week ago:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=127023.msg1072408#msg1072408

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

They don't seem to care about DNG, and should simply stop allowing it's use OR (better) fix their products to support it correctly. I've asked too, I wanted to migrate to C1 but also found DNG issues of which they simply seem to ignore. Even as recently as a last week ago:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=127023.msg1072408#msg1072408

This has nothing to do with C1 and DNG, it has to do with the absence of a profile for the Z7.

Adobe products, using the implicit conversion to DNG, could not handle Z7 files either before a profile was made by Adobe.
DNG files are simply a form of a TIFF file container, nothing special about it that makes colors appear without profiling.

Cheers,
Bart

[digitaldog]

This has nothing to do with C1 and DNG, it has to do with the absence of a profile for the Z7.

But it affects DNGs no? And the questions asked to a Phase One employee again went unanswered no?
No can C1 support .DCP profiles the OP could easily make that isn't supplied by Phase? Because it appears that there's nothing special about DNG that makes colors appear without profiling no?

There is only a selection possible of a DNG file Neutral or DNG Workspace profile, and by default,

That seems like a massive limitation no?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

But it affects DNGs no?

No, it also affects original NEFs (which are not officially supported yet). Adobe products also need to have profiles made before Raw files can be read.

And the questions asked to a Phase One employee again went unanswered no?

The poster of the question was ignored, for a reason.

No can C1 support .DCP profiles the OP could easily make that isn't supplied by Phase? Because it appears that there's nothing special about DNG that makes colors appear without profiling no?

Don't understand the question, are frankly do not care because you're only seeking to be argumentative, not looking for an answer that helps others.

That seems like a massive limitation no?

No, because starting with a Neutral profile will allow the user to roll his/her own versions by using the Advanced Color Editor and saving the result as a new ICC profile. Creating and saving one's own profiles is a feature that Capture One has had for a very long time.

Cheers,
Bart

[digitaldog]

No, it also affects original NEFs (which are not officially supported yet). Adobe products also need to have profiles made before Raw files can be read.

Ah, two bugs.

The poster of the question was ignored, for a reason.

You're speaking for him?

No, because starting with a Neutral profile will allow the user to roll his/her own versions by using the Advanced Color Editor and saving the result as a new ICC profile.

So the actual answer is no, they do not support .DCP profiles the OP could easily make himself. Got it.

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

Attached an example of (ab)using a D850 profile on the DNG conversion of an unsupported Z7 file.

Colors are not very accurate (e.g. red looks a bit off) because there is no dedicated profile for the Z7 yet.

But the detail is wonderful, thanks to a superior Raw conversion engine and built-in Diffraction Correction functionality.

Cheers,
Bart

[Mike Dale]

Who let the dog out?

[DP]

Ah, two bugs. You're speaking for him? So the actual answer is no, they do not support .DCP profiles the OP could easily make himself. Got it.

OP could easily make "icc/icm" camera profiles for C1 too ... DCP profiles (just like other approaches) force a specific sequence of processing data on a raw converter and P1 finds it too much hassle to comply

[DP]

I've asked

you have asked a wrong employee - DGrover is more managerial/sales type, you shall ask a technical one, like = https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?action=profile;u=55954 - he might be so kind as to explain what is the issue to fit DCP camera profile model into C1 pipeline.

[digitaldog]

OP could easily make "icc/icm" camera profiles for C1 too ... DCP profiles (just like other approaches) force a specific sequence of processing data on a raw converter and P1 finds it too much hassle to comply

I know he can make ICC profiles, that wasn't the question. He can't make .DCP profiles.

you have asked a wrong employee - DGrover is more managerial/sales type,

Wow, can't find the change log about fixes for DNG, after telling me my poor experiences with DNG is due to using version 9 while now they are on version 11. Seems those posting support if I can be so kind for C1 folks here are more qualified as you've shown, to post marketing than much more. Sad. 

he might be so kind as to explain what is the issue to fit DCP camera profile model into C1 pipeline.

The question was about support for DNG, NOT .DCP! Try reading what I asked about:
https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=127023.msg1072408#msg1072408

[DP]

The question was about support for DNG, NOT .DCP

the issue is exactly with DCP, not with DNG as a container itself

[digitaldog]

the issue is exactly with DCP, not with DNG as a container itself

What issue? There’s a simple question in the other post about correctly supporting DNG the marketing guy can’t apparently answer.

[Kevin Raber]

I have spoken to Phase One and they are actively working on all the new cameras as far as support goes. Any ti yes they have a release out before Adobe.  I don't think we have much longer to wait.  I am waiting to process both Canon R and Nikon Z7 files.  Also, there may be work on the new Mac OS.

[Denis de Gannes]

What issue? There’s a simple question in the other post about correctly supporting DNG the marketing guy can’t apparently answer.

Why does C1 have to support DNG its an Adobe product and the benefits are great if you are confined to utilising Adobe applications .
However if you are using other applications that provide support for raw files from digital cameras that do not fully support DNG files processed by LR/ ACR, then why is there pressure for then to conform to Adobe dictates.
The majority of Digital Camera Manufacturers have ignored Adobe pressures to do so, what incentive is there for the third party providers of applications to fall in line.
When LR/ACR or the Adobe DNG Converter are utilised to convert your raw files to DNG they will provide info into the file header of the DNG file to allow other Adobe products to process the files but this is not necessarily so with other raw processing applications e.g. C1 or DXO

[digitaldog]

Why does C1 have to support DNG its an Adobe product and the benefits are great if you are confined to utilising Adobe applications .

C1 doesn't have to support DNG whatsoever. But it does, just not fully and correctly. At least it didn't when I tested it. I was told my opinion was 'faulty' because that was version 9, they are up to version 11 but when I asked, is everything as it should be, no answer.
READ what I wrote here and there. C1 doesn’t have to support DNG at all. But IF it's going to allow DNGs, it should do it correctly and fully. It doesn't. Remove all DNG functionality, I'm fine with that.
You yourself stated 'fully support'. Software should do this with the formats it supports. You'd be OK if say, C1 could export a TIFF (also an Adobe format) but it couldn’t save them in 16-bit? That would be silly. What makes DNG different?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

A nice summary from the "Image Alchemist's" website: https://imagealchemist.net/capture-one-faq/

#8-Does Capture One Support DNG Files?

Q: Does Capture One support DNG files, and if yes, fully or limited?

A: Yes, Capture One Pro supports DNG files in several ways. Mind the difference between native DNG (straight out of camera) and converted DNG (non-DNG format converted into DNG).

Capture One Pro fully supports native DNG files as any other RAW file format (for example CR2, NEF, IIQ). Capture One Pro also fully supports converted DNG files that include the original RAW file.

A converted DNG file without the original RAW file is also supported but with some limitations. A generic DNG profile is used. Note that a camera must be supported in its native format to be supported as converted DNG file.

Please note that Capture One Pro does not support RAW files from other medium format cameras that are converted to DNG.

At this moment, a Nikon Z7 profile is not yet available, although one could roll one's own.

However, formal camera support is to be preferred because that can also involve other optimizations. As soon a PhaseOne have received a camera, they will start the process of creating a profile and release an updated C1 version.

Cheers,
Bart