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Author Topic: Panasonic rumors getting interesting  (Read 14474 times)

Telecaster

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #40 on: September 24, 2018, 04:00:55 pm »

The 24–70 & 70–200mm zoom ranges are poorly suited to the way I use zooms. With a 135 format camera I'd much rather have a 28–90 & 100–300mm set. Make 'em high quality and not too big. Variable max aperture would be fine, say f/3.5–4.5 for the shorter one and f/4.5–5.6 for the longer.

Less convention and more experimenting, please.

-Dave-
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chez

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #41 on: September 24, 2018, 04:24:19 pm »

The 24–70 & 70–200mm zoom ranges are poorly suited to the way I use zooms. With a 135 format camera I'd much rather have a 28–90 & 100–300mm set. Make 'em high quality and not too big. Variable max aperture would be fine, say f/3.5–4.5 for the shorter one and f/4.5–5.6 for the longer.

Less convention and more experimenting, please.

-Dave-

Personally hate variable aperture zooms and 28 is just not wide enough for me.
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #42 on: September 24, 2018, 05:05:07 pm »

Amazing what one can deduce from just some marketing propaganda...Sony is almost surpassed by yet an unreleased system.

Easy enough to say from specs. And, like everything else in any field dealing with preliminary/incomplete information, it's an 'if... then...' case. If you can't understand that, then there's no point even discussing rumours and predictions.

Sony has dual cards, solid AF and fast zooms/fast primes, but the flash system (right down to the hotshoe) is crap. If Panasonic can match the first three and release a decent flash system (or even just a decent hotshoe) then, by definition, it would beat the Sony in that role. Rumours point to 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8 and a 50mm prime as the first lenses. It wouldn't take much to put in two card slots instead of one - and the f/2.8 zooms at launch suggest they're going after the high end and pro users, who would demand dual slots - and Panasonic has an established history of working with mirrorless AF. And, given their partnership with Sigma, lens selection is unlikely to be a problem.
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faberryman

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #43 on: September 24, 2018, 05:12:26 pm »

And, given their partnership with Sigma, lens selection is unlikely to be a problem.
Only if you actually want the Sigma lenses.
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #44 on: September 24, 2018, 05:26:00 pm »

Yes, if you want big, heavy and bulky, you can choose any of the many DSLR systems already fully setup with big, heavy professional grade lenses. Why would I as a wedding shooter go out on the limb using a Panosonic camera for my weddings when I can get a totally proven DSLR system from Canon or Nikon?

Because you wouldn't be buying it until the system was proven by the early adopters and the right lenses and accessories were available.

SLR may be proven, but it's also hit its peak. For further improvement- things like eye AF, real-time WYSIWYG composition and exposure (invaluable for event photographers shooting JPEG in order to sell prints during an event), better video and AI-based AF modes - you need to move to mirrorless. And Canon/Nikon are going to slowly reduce their support for the SLR lines, as their mirrorless options gain traction.

Mirrorless is now a proven technology, able to match SLR capability-wise - Sony broke that ground with the A9/A7r3/A7III. All that is left for Panasonic to prove is that their new system can match the Sony performance-wise. And that's something that will become apparent within a few weeks of product availability. When that happens, you won't be 'going out on a limb' by buying it - you'd be buying a new system,  but one based on proven technology and with proven capability, with much better prospects for future ongoing support and future bodies with expanded capabilities than if you bought an EF or F-mount system instead.

Quote
I went to mirrorless because I wanted ( needed ) a more compact system for extensive traveling and did not want to sacrifice the quality of my images...so the crop avenue was out for me.

Which is a typical reason for amateur use (this includes pros shooting in a hobbyist capacity, e.g. pro sports shooters going on holiday).

Right now, the game is not in winning over amateurs and hobbyists. It's in winning over a core group of pro/paid shooters, encouraging them to move on from SLR. When they come, the amateurs will come with them. A manufacturer with a loyal following of amateur landscape photogrsphers, but no pros visibly using their systems at events, concerts, weddings and sporting matches, has no brand power or brand visibility at all.
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #46 on: September 24, 2018, 05:49:24 pm »

Only if you actually want the Sigma lenses.

What I mean is that they will have no problem releasing the lenses they want to release for the system. Panasonic and Sigma together have more than enough capacity to design and make whatever lenses they want (tapping into Sigma's preexisting models for optical designs). When, and whether, to release small/light models is up to them.

If you value small size over performance, just buy an Olympus or a Leica.
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #47 on: September 24, 2018, 06:00:07 pm »

A line of light, sharp zooms, as sharp and well-built as the faster lenses and probably not much cheaper, would make sense and have appeal among a wide subset of users, but not before and not at the expense of the faster, more all-purpose f/2.8 zooms which can do everything the slow zooms can do, plus more.

Light options make much less sense for primes, since one of the main reasons for using primes is for DOF control, which you can't get with a slower lens, no matter how sharp.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #48 on: September 24, 2018, 06:14:23 pm »

Unsurprisingly, I have the exact opposite view.

Most potential buyers of pro zooms are DSLR users who own large pro zooms already. As Shadowblade tried for pages in the Nikon Z thread to convince the world that there would be close to zero value to go to the Z eventhough they could reuse their existing lenses with very good performance, now we should believe that they will find it appealing to throw away their existing DSLR pro zooms to replace them by equally bulky Pana f2.8 zooms???

No, the value for DSLR users is first compactness. Not 5 years ago, but today as we speak.

I expect Pana to have understood this just like Nikon has.

Cheers,
Bernard

Two23

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #49 on: September 24, 2018, 06:20:42 pm »


Mirrorless is now a proven technology, able to match SLR capability-wise - Sony broke that ground with the A9/A7r3/A7III. All that is left for Panasonic to prove is that their new system can match the Sony performance-wise.


But, with Nikon D810 selling used for >$1,500 and a vast number of high quality lenses selling used on ebay, mirrorless has not caught up value wise.  Don't get me wrong--I'm not a fan boy of any system.  Last weekend I was shooting a Nikon D800E with Sigma's best ART lenses, a 1954 Rolleiflex film camera, and an 1890s half plate field camera with dry plates--all interchangeably.  They all did the job.


Kent in SD
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #50 on: September 24, 2018, 07:22:34 pm »

Unsurprisingly, I have the exact opposite view.

Most potential buyers of pro zooms are DSLR users who own large pro zooms already. As Shadowblade tried for pages in the Nikon Z thread to convince the world that there would be close to zero value to go to the Z eventhough they could reuse their existing lenses with very good performance, now we should believe that they will find it appealing to throw away their existing DSLR pro zooms to replace them by equally bulky Pana f2.8 zooms???

No, the value for DSLR users is first compactness. Not 5 years ago, but today as we speak.

I expect Pana to have understood this just like Nikon has.

Cheers,
Bernard

The thing is, SLR is a technology that's reaching the end of its service life, to be mostly replaced over the next decade by mirrorless systems (of whatever size).

The value for current SLR users is to be able to move into a new system that's able to replace, not supplement, their current systems, while, for those who do not currently own a full-frame system, it is in the ability to move straight into a full-capability, future-proofed mirrorless system rather than having to temporarily buy into a system that's likely to become dated and suffer from reduced manufacturer support in the near future. That calls for f/2.8 zooms and fast primes which can entirely replace their SLR counterparts, not slow lenses.

Mirrorless needs to be a full-capability system, first and foremost. Those buying into the system shouldn't also need an SLR system if they want the full gamut of capabilities. They need to be able to get it all with just a mirrorless system. The small lenses can come later.
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #51 on: September 24, 2018, 07:31:00 pm »


But, with Nikon D810 selling used for >$1,500 and a vast number of high quality lenses selling used on ebay, mirrorless has not caught up value wise.  Don't get me wrong--I'm not a fan boy of any system.  Last weekend I was shooting a Nikon D800E with Sigma's best ART lenses, a 1954 Rolleiflex film camera, and an 1890s half plate field camera with dry plates--all interchangeably.  They all did the job.


Kent in SD

It's not a future-proofed system, though. I didn't buy the D800 in 2012 for that reason when Canon failed to deliver IQ-wise, and wouldn't buy an SLR today for the same reason.

Any lenses you buy for a second-hand SLR system, even if they are cheap, are likely to be obsolescent in a few years, usable on mirrorless bodies only via adapters (likely with minimal support in terms of software-based lens correction profiles, etc.) and on increasingly-infrequent legacy SLR body releases.

Anyway, the D810 is nothing to write home about AF-wise. Any of the current-generation Sonys beats it thoroughly.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #52 on: September 24, 2018, 07:57:42 pm »

Strategically speaking, it seems clear that China will overtake Japan at some time. Investing in any of the Japanese brands does’t seem very futureproof to me Shadowblade.

I would wait if I were you.

Cheers,
Bernard

chez

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #53 on: September 24, 2018, 08:04:24 pm »

The thing is, SLR is a technology that's reaching the end of its service life, to be mostly replaced over the next decade by mirrorless systems (of whatever size).

The value for current SLR users is to be able to move into a new system that's able to replace, not supplement, their current systems, while, for those who do not currently own a full-frame system, it is in the ability to move straight into a full-capability, future-proofed mirrorless system rather than having to temporarily buy into a system that's likely to become dated and suffer from reduced manufacturer support in the near future. That calls for f/2.8 zooms and fast primes which can entirely replace their SLR counterparts, not slow lenses.

Mirrorless needs to be a full-capability system, first and foremost. Those buying into the system shouldn't also need an SLR system if they want the full gamut of capabilities. They need to be able to get it all with just a mirrorless system. The small lenses can come later.

Again you are focussed on the much smaller professional market that somehow needs big heavy expensive lenses. The real market is still the consumer and I know they don't want the size and bulk of a DSLR system...if they did they could just get a DSLR system for 1/4 the price.

I think Sony did it right by addressing the consumer market first, getting established and then going after the shrinking professional market. My town of about 20,000 has lost over 1/2 of its professional photographers over the last 10 years or so...not a healthy market to address.
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #54 on: September 24, 2018, 10:19:51 pm »

Strategically speaking, it seems clear that China will overtake Japan at some time. Investing in any of the Japanese brands does’t seem very futureproof to me Shadowblade.

I would wait if I were you.

Cheers,
Bernard

Not a valid comparison. Japan isn't going to disappear. SLRs, mostly, will - just as TLRs and film SLRs mostly have. There's no point investing in a system likely to have minimal support in 10 years' time (within the expected service life of any lenses you buy now).
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D Fuller

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #55 on: September 24, 2018, 10:34:22 pm »

The thing is, SLR is a technology that's reaching the end of its service life, to be mostly replaced over the next decade by mirrorless systems (of whatever size).

The value for current SLR users is to be able to move into a new system that's able to replace, not supplement, their current systems, while, for those who do not currently own a full-frame system, it is in the ability to move straight into a full-capability, future-proofed mirrorless system rather than having to temporarily buy into a system that's likely to become dated and suffer from reduced manufacturer support in the near future. That calls for f/2.8 zooms and fast primes which can entirely replace their SLR counterparts, not slow lenses.

Mirrorless needs to be a full-capability system, first and foremost. Those buying into the system shouldn't also need an SLR system if they want the full gamut of capabilities. They need to be able to get it all with just a mirrorless system. The small lenses can come later.

Future proof might be the most overused word in photography. Red saw to that a decade ago.

Your scenarios all seem to suggest all this switching is going to happen the day the cameras are released, and that it’s going to happen all at once, and that all the systems are defined by what’s available when the first piece hits the shelves. None of these is true. People rarely dump an entire system and pick up another with no overlap. That takes time. And during that time, all the manufacturers will be releasing new lenses, and new bodies as well if the trial is long enough.

You talk as if Leica/Sigma/Panny will have a whole line of professional lenses available when the body hits stores. And that that invalidates all the other manufacturers’ strategies. Neither of those is true either.

By the time the Panny camera hits stores, Nikon will have more S lenses available. Canon will have more R lenses available. Depending on what the delivery timeframe turns out to be, Nikon’s trinity of 2.8 zooms you’re so concerned about may be available in the S line. And who knows what’s on Canon’s roadmap?

Meanwhile, there are a few dozen Nikkors that will that will autofocus well with the FTZ adapter, and more manual focus lenses. There are a few dozen Leica manual lenses that will work with the M-L adapter, and a few autofocus lenses. And there are a few dozen Canon lenses that will focus well via the R adapters. The adapters work. (Well from all reports.) And that means real photographers have real choices.

I’m very happy with the direction Nikon has mapped out. I’m intrigued by the L/S/P alliance, and interested in the Panny FF announcement (but not because of f2.8 zooms). And I’m sure of only one thing regarding the future—the evolution from DSLR to mirrorless cameras will be a lot more chaotic than the writing on this forum suggests. Right now, I own four camera systems, and have another on order, and I sometimes rent stuff. That may be above the mean, but having different cameras for different purposes is not uncommon.

18 months from now, I expect we’ll have three new and pretty interesting camera systems that will serve the vast majority of serious users with emphasis on different things. They will all have very good, but still basic, lens lineups. Sony will still have more native lenses, and that will matter to those for whom those more exotic lenses are important. Nikon will not have gone under because it offered f/1.8 primes, and Canon will not have ridden to world dominance on the back of a two-kilo f/2.0 zoom. And I might still own both the Sony and the NikonZ systems. Or one may have been gone to eBay. Or maybe both will have gone and been replaced by some L/S/P kit. What will determine that? It won’t be the native lenses; I’m confident all three systems will have a pretty fair selection by then, with more on the way. It’ll be the responsiveness of firmware updates, the ergonomics and UI, and how well the bodies and their various adapters work with third party, mostly manual-focus lenses, including vintage Cine lenses and specialty technical lenses that are important to me. That’s where “future proofing” lies (if it lies anywhere at all). It lies in the firmware, the usability, and the compatibility with legacy glass that provides unique looks. All of them will have very good native optics in the usual specs, along with a few showpiece lenses.
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BJL

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Panasonic rumors — leaked Leica-Panasonic-Sigma L-mount announcement
« Reply #56 on: September 24, 2018, 10:36:28 pm »

Just confirmation of rumors mostly:
https://leicarumors.com/2018/09/24/press-release-for-a-new-l-mount-alliance-between-leica-panasonic-and-sigma-just-leaked-online.aspx/#more-54013

But one item is news to me: the L mount diameter is given as 51.6mm, bigger (and probably better) than the previously-reported 48.8mm. Along with Nikon Z at 55mm and Canon R at 54mm, Sony E mount's 46.1mm is now quite an outlier, which does add to the suspicion that it could be an impediment for a few ambitious, fast lens options.
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #57 on: September 25, 2018, 12:00:52 am »

Again you are focussed on the much smaller professional market that somehow needs big heavy expensive lenses. The real market is still the consumer and I know they don't want the size and bulk of a DSLR system...if they did they could just get a DSLR system for 1/4 the price.

I think Sony did it right by addressing the consumer market first, getting established and then going after the shrinking professional market. My town of about 20,000 has lost over 1/2 of its professional photographers over the last 10 years or so...not a healthy market to address.

And what do you think drives the consumer market? Do you think Canon would have sold nearly as many low-end Rebels and other crop bodies (inferior in almost all respects to their Nikon counterparts) if it weren't for all the big white lenses and big, red-ringed lenses that the non-photographer public see everywhere? The vast majority of consumer-end sales don't go to people who read camera forums and pore through spec sheets. They go to people who might want a better camera for a holiday or to shoot their children, who see pro users shooting a Canon/Nikon/Sony, think 'the pros use it, so it must be good' then go out and buy one. Without pro users, a brand has no visibility and less ability to penetrate the consumer market.

Put simply, pro users don't generate much income directly - instead, they generate sales, from which the real income is derived
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SrMi

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #58 on: September 25, 2018, 01:05:21 am »

The 24–70 & 70–200mm zoom ranges are poorly suited to the way I use zooms. With a 135 format camera I'd much rather have a 28–90 & 100–300mm set. Make 'em high quality and not too big. Variable max aperture would be fine, say f/3.5–4.5 for the shorter one and f/4.5–5.6 for the longer.

Less convention and more experimenting, please.

-Dave-

I find it sad that only Leica had the 'courage' to design lenses of a non-conformist range. IMO, Leica SL's 24-90 and 90-280 are much more convenient ranges than 'classic' 24-70 and 70-200. Variable aperture would be fine for me as well.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #59 on: September 25, 2018, 01:37:13 am »

And what do you think drives the consumer market? Do you think Canon would have sold nearly as many low-end Rebels and other crop bodies (inferior in almost all respects to their Nikon counterparts) if it weren't for all the big white lenses and big, red-ringed lenses that the non-photographer public see everywhere?

Supposing that to be true, for the sake of argument, it bodes well for the sales of consumer-level Canon MILC, since those pros with their big white lenses will still be there at the court-side for some time to come.
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