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Author Topic: Panasonic rumors getting interesting  (Read 10587 times)

shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #20 on: September 23, 2018, 12:08:51 am »

If Sigma is involved and adds its lens collection to the lineup, this becomes a lot more interesting than Panasonic alone, or Panasonic with Leica.

Rumour has it that the first three lenses are a 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8 and 50mm prime. If the AF is up to standard, that gives it a much more robust set of capabilities at launch than either the Z7 or EOS R, which will be lens-limited for a few years.
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2018, 05:10:04 am »

If Sigma is involved and adds its lens collection to the lineup, this becomes a lot more interesting than Panasonic alone, or Panasonic with Leica.

Rumour has it that the first three lenses are a 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8 and 50mm prime. If the AF is up to standard, that gives it a much more robust set of capabilities at launch than either the Z7 or EOS R, which will be lens-limited for a few years.

Hum... we would have to see their actual specs, but bulky f2.8 zoom lenses are not what I would expect as introductory lenses for a mirrorless system whose compactness should be a major aspect.

But I agree that the most important one will be the potential of the system regardless.

Cheers,
Bernard

Manoli

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2018, 07:14:32 am »

Well, if the Leica SL lenses work which should be a fairly safe bet, then the M lenses will work. No?

Not necessarily, at least not in the corners, where the slight smearing has occured with the wides.
What would be great is if Pana produce a FF Leica knock-off - referring to build & heft - that would ‘contrast’ with the mid-range, somewhat medioce build quality, of Canon and Nikon ‘s first efforts.

I don’t know who has licensed whose AF tech, but the good news is that they have licensed it out to Sigma, as have Sony with theirs.  Not a wise move to keep this tech proprietary (as Nikon are prone to do).

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #23 on: September 23, 2018, 08:32:42 am »

medioce build quality, of Canon and Nikon ‘s first efforts.

I have seen a long list of criticism about the Z7, but you are the first to call its build quality anything short of outstanding. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard

Manoli

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #24 on: September 23, 2018, 09:12:23 am »

I have seen a long list of criticism about the Z7, but you are the first to call its build quality anything short of outstanding. ;)

If you’re going to quote , quote in full.
What i said was

... if Pana produce a FF Leica knock-off - referring to build & heft - that would ‘contrast’ with the mid-range, somewhat mediocre build quality, of Canon and Nikon ‘s first efforts.

Read any of the hands on field reviews, everyone has an opinion, but the one consensus is that neither cams are rivals for D5, 1DX II, Leica SL pro-build quality - and their price reflects that. They are mid-range cams.

Relax, Bernard , the post wasn’t a criticism and wasn’t ‘aimed’ at the Z7 ... and this thread is on the rumoured Panasonic.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 09:59:44 am by Manoli »
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DP

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2018, 09:39:23 am »

mirrorless system whose compactness should be a major aspect.
Canon did a fine job there with super compact 28-70/2 and 50/1.2 ... and yes, Nikon too - is this a compact one ?



or this humongous 50/1.8 ?

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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2018, 06:22:25 pm »

Canon did a fine job there with super compact 28-70/2 and 50/1.2 ... and yes, Nikon too - is this a compact one ?



or this humongous 50/1.8 ?

Yes, it is a compact super high quality lens.

It should be compared to Sony GM and Canon L.

But yes, apologies for the out of topic comment.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: September 23, 2018, 07:10:41 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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gkroeger

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2018, 07:44:51 pm »

Canon did a fine job there with super compact 28-70/2 and 50/1.2 ... and yes, Nikon too - is this a compact one ?

The Nikkor Z 35mm f1.8 isn't compact, but it is only 86mm long and weighs in at only 370g (vs 60mm and 340g for the Zeiss Loxia 35mm f/2). Sigma seems to think we need a 40mm f/1.4 lens that weighs 1200g and is 131mm long... and that's the DSLR version, add some weight and length for mirrorless?
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faberryman

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2018, 08:09:05 pm »

Sigma seems to think we need a 40mm f/1.4 lens that weighs 1200g and is 131mm long... and that's the DSLR version, add some weight and length for mirrorless?
Aren't you glad Sigma is teaming up with Leica and Panasonic. ;)
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gkroeger

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2018, 08:27:25 pm »

Aren't you glad Sigma is teaming up with Leica and Panasonic. ;)

Reminds me of the line from Jurassic Park where Dr. Malcom (Jeff Goldblum) says: "Yeah, yeah, but your scientists lens designers were so preoccupied with whether or not they could that they didn't stop to think if they should.
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #30 on: September 24, 2018, 12:11:18 am »

Hum... we would have to see their actual specs, but bulky f2.8 zoom lenses are not what I would expect as introductory lenses for a mirrorless system whose compactness should be a major aspect.

But I agree that the most important one will be the potential of the system regardless.

Cheers,
Bernard

Small size was a selling point 5 years ago. Not any more, when everyone has options for small size. Better to release a full-featured body with dual slots and f/2.8 zooms, which aren't matched by anyone other than Sony, than to add yet another system into that crowded marketplace. Add in a decent flash system and it would surpass the Sony.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #31 on: September 24, 2018, 04:14:01 am »

Small size was a selling point 5 years ago. Not any more, when everyone has options for small size.

That's odd - small size (and weight) was why I ordered it (despite the mediocre - sorry, somewhat mediocre - build quality).
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #32 on: September 24, 2018, 04:42:07 am »

That's odd - small size (and weight) was why I ordered it (despite the mediocre - sorry, somewhat mediocre - build quality).

Thing is, if you're after small size, you can choose Sony, Nikon, Canon, Leica or any of the crop sensor formats. Panasonic adding another one doesn't change much.

If you're after a high-end camera, with solid AF, dual slots and fast zooms in the 24-70 and 70-200 ranges - the staple lenses of a large proportion of paid photographers - your only mirrorless choice is Sony, whose flash system leaves a lot to be desired. A Panasonic alternative with dual slots and f/2.8 zooms would completely change the high-end landscape and make it much more competitive. And we know Sigma can deliver the lenses - that's pretty much all they make.
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Christopher

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #33 on: September 24, 2018, 07:52:38 am »

That’s exactly the problem. Sony has nearly no high quality lenses that are actually small. In that regard I think Nikon is the first company actually doing the right thing with their small but amazing lenses.

I don’t mind it the other way around, but most companies produce great 2.8 zooms, but there f4 versions suck.

If I ever would buy such a camera it would have to be light and small with a good range.


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Christopher Hauser
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #34 on: September 24, 2018, 09:37:56 am »

That’s exactly the problem. Sony has nearly no high quality lenses that are actually small.

Apart from the entire Batis range.

Quote
In that regard I think Nikon is the first company actually doing the right thing with their small but amazing lenses.

I don’t mind it the other way around, but most companies produce great 2.8 zooms, but there f4 versions suck.

If I ever would buy such a camera it would have to be light and small with a good range.

By prioritising small size over other factors, you're already accepting compromises in performance which wouldn't have to be made if the size/weight restriction weren't there. A slower, smaller lens that matches the optical performance and build quality of a faster lens with no such size restriction isn't likely to be much cheaper than the faster lens.

Besides, making the initial lens lineup small and light rather than fast and with no compromises locks out large swathes of high-end users, at the very time in the product cycle you want to be locking in these users making long-term investments in a new system. With f/4 zooms in the 24-200mm range and slowish primes (by prime standards), they'd preclude most photojournalists, event photographers, wedding photographers, portrait photographers and many other groups from choosing them almost completely. Anyone who wants/needs strong subject isolation is never going to choose a slow lens, no matter how sharp or light. These photographers would likely go and buy another mirrorless system that offered them the fast lenses and never look back, even if Panasonic/Nikon/whoever later caught up and offered similar lenses. Nikon discovered this, to its detriment, when it was slow out of the gate with CMOS and high ISO, and slow again with full frame - they later caught up and surpassed Canon performance-wise, but never regained the market share with DSLR that they had in the film days. Essentially, they'd be left with cashed-up amateur landscape photographers and soccer mums/dads, which, while a lucrative market in its own right, is never going to have the star power of higher-end users that is so valuable for advertising and brand promotion. Witness Canon's big white lenses at sporting events and in press galleries for an example.

Sure, it's great to have a strong suite of smaller/lighter, but still super-sharp, lenses for this market, but it can't come at the expense of the larger, pro-grade (utility-wise) lenses which are the poster-boys, if not necessarily the cash cows, of your brand. Many photographers would probably end up using a combination of the two - sharp and lightweight 14-24/4, 24-70/4 and 100-400/4.5-5.6 lenses ('lightweight' being a relative term in the last case) would make for a great portable kit if combined with a fast 35/50/85/1.2, 105/1.4 or 135/1.8 prime to cover the portrait focal lengths where you really want the subject isolation only a fast lens can bring. You'd then have lightweight, slower but still super-sharp lenses from 14-400mm (560mm with a 1.4x TC) for subjects where you want everything in focus, as well as a fast lens for those focal lengths where you tend to really need background blur, but would have a hard time getting it with a slower lens. But it's not the slow, lightweight lenses which build the brand - it's the large, fast lenses seen in the hands of pros shooting news, sports and events.

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jeremyrh

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #35 on: September 24, 2018, 09:50:54 am »

Thing is, if you're after small size, you can choose Sony, Nikon, Canon, Leica or any of the crop sensor formats.

Sure, but I don't want a crop sensor format.

Quote
Sure, it's great to have a strong suite of smaller/lighter, but still super-sharp, lenses for this market, but it can't come at the expense of the larger, pro-grade (utility-wise) lenses which are the poster-boys, if not necessarily the cash cows, of your brand.

This goes back to a question I asked a while ago - who exactly the market is. Are wedding photographers really dropping multi-thousands of bucks on a new camera at the drop of a hat? And replacing their lens investment at the same time?  Rhetorical question.
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shadowblade

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #36 on: September 24, 2018, 10:21:29 am »

This goes back to a question I asked a while ago - who exactly the market is. Are wedding photographers really dropping multi-thousands of bucks on a new camera at the drop of a hat? And replacing their lens investment at the same time?  Rhetorical question.

Not established photographers - they change gear slowly, generally as it wears out or becomes thoroughly obsolete. But new photographers are starting out/moving into paid work all the time, and these people often buy $5k-10k of gear (full-frame body, 24-70/2.8, 70-200/2.8, flash) in one go. And, once they buy into a system like that, they tend to stay with the system for a long time. Very common with hobbyists moving into paid gigs and part time/full time paid photography, usually shooting events (whether parties, live music or nightclubs), weddings and portraits - when they were unpaid hobbyists, many had crop bodies with kit lenses, but, once they made the move into paid work, they needed the full-frame bodies and fast lenses, and bought them.

Then there's the question of what gear a company makes most money selling vs what gear gives the company the name to sell that gear. They're two different things. Canon makes much more money selling low-end Rebels and kit lenses to people shooting in green box mode than it does selling 1Dx bodies and supertele primes (or even 5D4s and 70-200/2.8 lenses) to pro photographers. But it's the brand visibility of the top-end gear that gives them the audience to sell that low-end gear in the first place. Without the high-end users, they wouldn't have much of a customer base.
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chez

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #37 on: September 24, 2018, 02:49:20 pm »

Small size was a selling point 5 years ago. Not any more, when everyone has options for small size. Better to release a full-featured body with dual slots and f/2.8 zooms, which aren't matched by anyone other than Sony, than to add yet another system into that crowded marketplace. Add in a decent flash system and it would surpass the Sony.

Amazing what one can deduce from just some marketing propaganda...Sony is almost surpassed by yet an unreleased system.
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chez

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #38 on: September 24, 2018, 02:50:49 pm »

That's odd - small size (and weight) was why I ordered it (despite the mediocre - sorry, somewhat mediocre - build quality).

I got into the Sony system because of reduced size and weight. Reductions are quite substantial if you shoot a lot of wide angle...which I do.
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chez

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Re: Panasonic rumors getting interesting
« Reply #39 on: September 24, 2018, 02:55:27 pm »

Thing is, if you're after small size, you can choose Sony, Nikon, Canon, Leica or any of the crop sensor formats. Panasonic adding another one doesn't change much.

If you're after a high-end camera, with solid AF, dual slots and fast zooms in the 24-70 and 70-200 ranges - the staple lenses of a large proportion of paid photographers - your only mirrorless choice is Sony, whose flash system leaves a lot to be desired. A Panasonic alternative with dual slots and f/2.8 zooms would completely change the high-end landscape and make it much more competitive. And we know Sigma can deliver the lenses - that's pretty much all they make.

Yes, if you want big, heavy and bulky, you can choose any of the many DSLR systems already fully setup with big, heavy professional grade lenses. Why would I as a wedding shooter go out on the limb using a Panosonic camera for my weddings when I can get a totally proven DSLR system from Canon or Nikon?

I went to mirrorless because I wanted ( needed ) a more compact system for extensive traveling and did not want to sacrifice the quality of my images...so the crop avenue was out for me.
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