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Author Topic: If it ain't broke  (Read 1966 times)

David Eichler

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If it ain't broke
« on: September 02, 2018, 04:20:09 pm »

The LR clone tool used to do a much better job of automatically selecting sources for cloning/healing. In the last couple of years Adobe made a change so that the automatic selection has become really stupid and mostly useless. I hoping they did this because they needed to make some changes to improve performance elsewhere and couldn't figure out a way to prevent this drop in performance of the auto-select feature. If they did not do it because of that, well....

You can try to remove a spot from clear sky, and, instead of selecting another section of clear sky as a source, the auto-select feature will sometimes select a portion of sky that includes a tree branch. It is that bad.
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 04:34:55 pm »

I'm still using LR6 (the last pre-subscription version) and I find that its clone tool is almost useless except for tiny dust spec removals. For anything else I just bounce into CS6 and us the real clone tool.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 05:47:12 pm »

I don't know what version of Lr David is talking about, but I am using 7.1 (subscription) and I find the cloning and healing functions are working on the whole quite well. They more often make more correct matches than I would manually. And if they don't, simply rewinding and repeating improves the sourcing. One does need to be judicious with the tool settings however to get it right. One thing Lr can't do that would be really useful is content aware fill in those empty corner spaces sometimes created by perspective improvement. Photoshop can do this and its periodically very useful. There are some complex cloning or healing operations that Lr simply can't do very well, and for those it is necessary to Edit in Photoshop, but for a great many I find the version of Lr I'm using satisfactory.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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David Eichler

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2018, 05:54:03 pm »

I don't know what version of Lr David is talking about, but I am using 7.1 (subscription) and I find the cloning and healing functions are working on the whole quite well. They more often make more correct matches than I would manually. And if they don't, simply rewinding and repeating improves the sourcing. One does need to be judicious with the tool settings however to get it right. One thing Lr can't do that would be really useful is content aware fill in those empty corner spaces sometimes created by perspective improvement. Photoshop can do this and its periodically very useful. There are some complex cloning or healing operations that Lr simply can't do very well, and for those it is necessary to Edit in Photoshop, but for a great many I find the version of Lr I'm using satisfactory.

LR CC 7.4   While I use PS freguently, it would be nice if I didn't have to use it as much when I just need to do some kinds of relatively simple retouching. As I said, current LR CC often screws up auto selecting with even the simplest of editing situations, like clear sky, when there is plenty of available clear sky to use as a source. If there is a branch anywhere in the vicinity, all too often it will include some of that in the source.

Don't remember when the function deteriorated, but it seems like it started with the introduction of LR CC, or shortly thereafter. I have been using LR since version 2.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2018, 06:04:56 pm »

Do you recall for which version this problem first appeared? Is it new to 7.4? Have you notified it to Adobe and gotten any feedback?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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rdonson

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2018, 07:14:43 pm »

I'm on  Lr 7.5 and using the clone tool.  Its not an AI tool but it mostly works.  Sometimes I have to adjust for its suggestion but that's a pretty easy thing to do. 
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Regards,
Ron

David Eichler

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2018, 01:40:52 am »

Do you recall for which version this problem first appeared? Is it new to 7.4? Have you notified it to Adobe and gotten any feedback?

I told all I remember above.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2018, 09:46:10 am »

I told all I remember above.

Well, OK, so be it. The reason why I'm asking, and why I also asked whether you submitted a bug report to Adobe (they can investigate and fix, LuLa cannot), is that it's useful to know whether there is broadly based consistency between users about (a) the existence of the problem, and (b) as of which version of Lr the problem set in. These two elements of consistency would then be helpful in two respects: (i) to help Adobe see that there is a problem and from where it emerged (good for diagnostics) and (ii) to help users who have not upgraded to 7.4 or 7.5 to know whether they should do so or not if this feature is critical to them. Nothing in this thread so far indicates any such consistency of experience, which leaves us unsure what to surmise except that you have a problem in your computing environment with this version of Lr and Eric had a problem much further back from this. Let us see whether any more contributions appear to take us beyond where we are just now. 

But just for confirmation from my end, I opened an image in Lr 7.1 last night that has some really nasty defects in it: irregularly shaped hairs or scratches crossing multiple areas of differing hue and luminance, and I ran the healing tool through them at 1:1 magnification. I was impressed by how good a job it did at cleaning up the defects properly recognizing the surrounding environment. Half a dozen such attempts worked seamlessly.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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john beardsworth

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2018, 04:51:09 pm »

I don't recall this feature changing.

Paul2660

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2018, 05:28:25 pm »

As previously posted, there are times that the initial compare is in a not so great spot, (doesn't happen to me very often however), but just drag the circle to a new spot, done. 

I don't believe you can do this with the tool in CC, it's what it likes or you have to back up and do it again, at least that is how I do it.  There very well be a way to do it as in LR, but CC doesn't give you a sample circle to move.

It's been this way for at least 2 years as I can remember, really as long as the tool has existed.

Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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Mark D Segal

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2018, 05:46:22 pm »

As previously posted, there are times that the initial compare is in a not so great spot, (doesn't happen to me very often however), but just drag the circle to a new spot, done. 

I don't believe you can do this with the tool in CC, ..........

Paul C

What is "CC"? Do you mean the "non-classic" version of Lr a.k.a. Lightroom-lite? I didn't think this discussion was about the "CC" version if that's what you are referring to. Gheez, I wish Adobe could settle on some other kind of more intuitively meaningful application naming system. It's all such a pile of confusion.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Paul2660

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2018, 05:57:56 pm »

Mark,

Sorry, I just used my short hand.  I tend to call Photoshop CC, just CC, and forget that Lightroom also is CC. 

What I was trying to say, was that in Photoshop CC, 2018, and all previous versions, the dust tool works differently than in Lightroom CC, in that the Photoshop CC version will not let you move your sample point, you have to edit, delete the sample and try again.  Most times that is not an issue as Photoshop CC tends to get it right.  Lightroom CC dust tool allows you to move the sample circle if for some reason it does sample down into a spot that is not a good area of the image.  The other feature I prefer in LR CC is the ability "show the dust" in the black and white version as this has saved me many times on a larger print as it's easy to miss some spots in Photoshop CC, so I always make more more check in Lightroom CC before I print.

Paul C
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Paul Caldwell
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Mark D Segal

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2018, 07:53:23 pm »

Paul,

Are there not different things involved here, right within Photoshop? I hardly use it for much editing these days so I may be missing something, but I recollect that for editing artifacts in Photoshop one has the choice of using the spot healing brush or the clone stamp. The former works under the hood, and as you say, the user has no control over how it blends pixels - if you don't like the outcome you undo it and redo it. Using the clone stamp however, the user must select the place from which the pixels will be cloned before cloning, and if the result disappoints, you undo it, choose another spot and redo it. The main advantage of the Lr approach is that you can adjust both the size of the coverage and the sourcing of the blend after seeing the first result without needing to undo the operation. Another interesting way of using this tool in Lr is that if you aren't satisfied with the first sourcing, you can repeat the first operation without undoing it, and Lr will itself select another blend source, which may be better. And you can do this repeatedly until satisfied. However, when I'm in trouble with this tool, which happens only occasionally, I prefer either fiddling with the blend or undoing the operation and starting over. As well, within the same tool one may use it to heal or clone, whichever works better. I'm generally satisfied with how all this works in Lr.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Alan Klein

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2018, 09:02:24 pm »

I use LR "owned" version 6.14.  When I scan film, there are always spots from dust that are scanned.  Which would remove them better?  The clone or the heal and why?

David Eichler

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2018, 09:20:41 pm »

Sorry, it was hyperbole for me to say it is mostly useless. I use it regularly for some simpler kinds of retouching. It is just that it used to do a better job and it now makes really stupid selections sometimes when they should be really easy, and this costs me more time (not much on an individual basis, but it adds up if you are doing a lot of work). Also, I initially referred to it as the clone tool, but I almost always use the healing function, rather than the clone function.
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E. Dinur

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2018, 01:28:42 am »

Well, if you don't like the choices the auto-select makes, perhaps a little self-reliance and using your own judgement from the outset and choosing the source yourself will be better. Holding the Ctrl key down all the time, click on the target area and drag the cursor to the source. Not in accord with the automation loving spirit of the times, but with a little self-confidence can be a faster and less angst-wrought workflow.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2018, 01:32:08 am by E. Dinur »
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john beardsworth

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2018, 02:24:36 am »

If you don't like its guess, use the "/" key a few times while the healing dot is active - LR takes another guess.

Ctrl / Cmd key and dragging gives you much more control.

Alan Klein

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2018, 10:17:50 am »

If you don't like its guess, use the "/" key a few times while the healing dot is active - LR takes another guess.

Ctrl / Cmd key and dragging gives you much more control.
Good clue about the "/" key.  Thanks.

Regarding the CTRL key, I didn't need to hold it on my 6.12.  Just move the pointer to the "guess" spot and press the left mouse key and drag. 

E. Dinur

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #18 on: September 05, 2018, 06:32:56 am »

Regarding the CTRL key, I didn't need to hold it on my 6.12.  Just move the pointer to the "guess" spot and press the left mouse key and drag.

I think you didn't understand what I described and John referred to. With Ctrl depressed you click on the dust spot and without  releasing Ctrl you drag from the spot to the desired source location. The tool doesn't make a guess, so there is no "guess spot".
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john beardsworth

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Re: If it ain't broke
« Reply #19 on: September 05, 2018, 07:07:17 am »

If you already know where you want to clone from, Alan, use the Ctrl or Cmd drag method. It's less work than letting LR guess and then correcting the source, or than using "/" to make LR keep guessing.

The key is to know these three methods exist so you can use them fluidly in any situation.
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