Make the MF plunge? Phase One 645 DF+, P45 Back& 80mm lens

[FataMorgana]

I am thinking about a 2nd hand purchase: a Phase One 645 DF+ with a P45 Digital Back (39 mega pixel, big sensor model) and Schneider Kreuznach 80mm f2.8 Leaf Shutter lens.

I am thinking of making the plunge into MF.

Shooting mostly Leica M240 + with Leica 35mm and 50mm lenses at present, lots of off camera flash units on location and some studio use.

Portraiture, street, landscapes, plus bits.

What pitfalls? I've been told it will need to be tripod mounted, a monopod at the very least.
Shutters need replacing very often.

Old technology, though I am used to manual everything anyhow.

Advantages being the larger sensor size and subsequent DOF look for portraiture especially, plus the option for a larger sensor sized back (?) in time.

Familiar with the film-era 'Blad 501 and Mamiya M7 film cameras.

Thank you in advance.

[sbernthal]

Advantage is it's fun to work with, if you're the kind that likes machines.
Disadvantages: cant work above iso 200, slow af, faded colors need push in ps.
Advantage: you can get very good lenses for cheap, some better than any 35mm.
Disadvantage: be careful from the few bad lenses.
Shutters are only a problem is 645df non plus.
You should prefer p45+ if you can get it, p65+ much better and I would say good enough for just about anything. I keep a p65+ as backup. I've tried p45 and p45+ and for me to work with every day they are not quite satisfactory.

[BobShaw]

Why spend a whole lot of money on old stuff that has no warranty.
For probably less money you could get a Hasselblad X1D.
New, light, easy to work with and ridiculously cheap at the moment.
You can use H series lenses or Canon with adaptors until the XCD start to appear on the used market.

[eronald]

I am thinking about a 2nd hand purchase: a Phase One 645 DF+ with a P45 Digital Back (39 mega pixel, big sensor model) and Schneider Kreuznach 80mm f2.8 Leaf Shutter lens.

I am thinking of making the plunge into MF.

Shooting mostly Leica M240 + with Leica 35mm and 50mm lenses at present, lots of off camera flash units on location and some studio use.

Portraiture, street, landscapes, plus bits.

What pitfalls? I've been told it will need to be tripod mounted, a monopod at the very least.
Shutters need replacing very often.

Old technology, though I am used to manual everything anyhow.

Advantages being the larger sensor size and subsequent DOF look for portraiture especially, plus the option for a larger sensor sized back (?) in time.

Familiar with the film-era 'Blad 501 and Mamiya M7 film cameras.

Thank you in advance.

The back is ok and the software great, the Mamiya is slow to operate and has a very bad focus system. The DOF will play against you.


Edmund

[pschefz]

i wont really get into the handling of this kit....i do know it well and it is lightyears behind even X1D or GFX....
but even i terms of IQ the A7RIII or D850 will be a step up, at anything over 200 its not even a contest....
the sensor is not big enough to give you "real film MF" DOF....again, a FF sony or nikon with a 1.4 lens will be ahead....and have fun trying to focus....even with the 80 at 2.8 (which wont give you the DOF you are looking for) things or people better not move at all....
it depends on the price....i am not sure the nostalgia factor would be really strong with this kit, the DR or IQ is not at FF level, maybe someone will bring up color, so maybe it has that going for it.....how much for the kit? 2K? not sure i would pay that....
3K buys a sony or nikon, there are so manny incredible system lenses out there and 3rd party funky and crazy DOF lenses are cheap.....
i am not saying that the back cant provide great images, but it was a real step up from DSLR when the 5DII was out....and i honestly would not see the point in anyone getting that because i would recommend a good cellphone over it in a heartbeat these days....
GFX is even cheaper then X1D, has amazing glass, (incredibly cheap for the quality) and has adapters for pretty much anything.....

[eronald]

i wont really get into the handling of this kit....i do know it well and it is lightyears behind even X1D or GFX....
but even i terms of IQ the A7RIII or D850 will be a step up, at anything over 200 its not even a contest....
the sensor is not big enough to give you "real film MF" DOF....again, a FF sony or nikon with a 1.4 lens will be ahead....and have fun trying to focus....even with the 80 at 2.8 (which wont give you the DOF you are looking for) things or people better not move at all....
it depends on the price....i am not sure the nostalgia factor would be really strong with this kit, the DR or IQ is not at FF level, maybe someone will bring up color, so maybe it has that going for it.....how much for the kit? 2K? not sure i would pay that....
3K buys a sony or nikon, there are so manny incredible system lenses out there and 3rd party funky and crazy DOF lenses are cheap.....
i am not saying that the back cant provide great images, but it was a real step up from DSLR when the 5DII was out....and i honestly would not see the point in anyone getting that because i would recommend a good cellphone over it in a heartbeat these days....
GFX is even cheaper then X1D, has amazing glass, (incredibly cheap for the quality) and has adapters for pretty much anything.....

The P45+ still has street value because of long exposures, I think the P45 can't do that.
Color is very nice, DR is good at base ISO, not as good as P65+, Mamiya is dreadful, lenses cheap and some very sharp.

Edmund

[Joe Towner]

Did you do much with the Hasselblad H4-50/H5-40 options you posted about earlier?  I would consider them to be a much better platform than a older DF+/P45 kit.

Personally, the way the DF/DF+ fits my hands is uncomfortable compared to the Hass - have you had a chance to shoot it?  The KerKLUNK sound it makes when taking a shot means you won't do much street with it, and the AF really has a mind of it's own.

If you have cash burning a hole in your pocket and you want to give it a go, do it and enjoy it.  As long as you're paying a good price, reselling it for minimal loss is an easy exit.  I would not extend yourself for medium format gear, it has a much smaller used market, much like your Leica.

I'd also recommend taking one of the POCP classes, get a little hands on with the gear, plus a license for CaptureOne Pro - https://www.phaseone.com/en/Events.aspx
https://www.teamworkphoto.com/online-store/phase-one-system/phase-one-events/phase-one-certified-professional-training-program/

-Joe

[eikkon]

I have this kit with the DF only.
I had before and AFD and a p25

I'm using it everywhere if there is enough light even if it's heavy.
I'm not using tripod but I should as I'm not so steady :-/

The image quality is excellent. I have a canon 5d mkIV and I always prefer images from the Phase One.

the DOF is not the most important as it's small and to focus  clearly for example with the f1.9 manually it's not easy. What is nice is the transition between the focus zone and out of focus
I thought to take the pentax, fuji gfx or hasselblad x1d; but 1st the sensor is smaller 33*44 so no big change in comparison of 24*36.
Forl me the big issue was the synch flash is only at 1/125s but at least hasselblad updated it I think.
With the DF+ and LS lenses 1/800
some old mamiya AF lenses are working fine on it. I have the 55mm f2.8. It's nice on it light so perfect for street photo.

Last the price of p45+ is reasonnable now

Hope my comment helps.

[ErikKaffehr]

Hi,

In my opinion, the folks suggesting it is better to go with the Fuji GFX are right. That would also apply to the Hasselblad X1D, but I think X-system lenses are more expensive.

I have the P45+ back on Hasselblad V and it can make great pictures, depending on the lens in front of it. But, I am pretty sure the GFX runs circles about it.

Best regards
Erik

I am thinking about a 2nd hand purchase: a Phase One 645 DF+ with a P45 Digital Back (39 mega pixel, big sensor model) and Schneider Kreuznach 80mm f2.8 Leaf Shutter lens.

I am thinking of making the plunge into MF.

Shooting mostly Leica M240 + with Leica 35mm and 50mm lenses at present, lots of off camera flash units on location and some studio use.

Portraiture, street, landscapes, plus bits.

What pitfalls? I've been told it will need to be tripod mounted, a monopod at the very least.
Shutters need replacing very often.

Old technology, though I am used to manual everything anyhow.

Advantages being the larger sensor size and subsequent DOF look for portraiture especially, plus the option for a larger sensor sized back (?) in time.

Familiar with the film-era 'Blad 501 and Mamiya M7 film cameras.

Thank you in advance.

[FataMorgana]

Thanks.

Some interesting comments here.

Never considered the Fuji - a dog is a dog, and no matter which angle you view their equipment from that MF body look dire.

I also looked at the 'Blad, but with a relatively small (by MF standards) sensor size I saw a bit o' kit with few options other than selling it after  few years, much as one would do with 35mm gear. It's still in the frame but it's not quite what I am looking for (?).

As was stated, I manual focus, so unless the lenses are complicated to focus, the AF system is of little interest.

Again, that info about Team Work in London is of value and I may well go down that route, if nothing else, it will help me ascertain what it the right gear for me personally.

Want to move up from the Sony Short List (2018) to actually winning competitions!

Thanks.

[pschefz]

Thanks.

Some interesting comments here.

Never considered the Fuji - a dog is a dog, and no matter which angle you view their equipment from that MF body look dire.

I also looked at the 'Blad, but with a relatively small (by MF standards) sensor size I saw a bit o' kit with few options other than selling it after  few years, much as one would do with 35mm gear. It's still in the frame but it's not quite what I am looking for (?).

As was stated, I manual focus, so unless the lenses are complicated to focus, the AF system is of little interest.

Again, that info about Team Work in London is of value and I may well go down that route, if nothing else, it will help me ascertain what it the right gear for me personally.

Want to move up from the Sony Short List (2018) to actually winning competitions!

Thanks.

have you ever actually held the GFX? it might not be as sexy as the X1D, but it is an incredibly functional camera, and a very well thought out system....i was very impressed with the X1Ds interface but in the end i dont really want to have to swipe to change my aperture....
neither one of these cameras will make you "move up"....you have great work, there is very little to nothing that a top of the line DSLR or mirrorless cant do or wont do better anyway....nikon is coming out with one soon, the mount looks like it might be abble to handle larger sensors, hopefully we can move on from the (now random) 24x36 restrictions of film days....

[JoeKitchen]

The back is great and was my work horse for many years. 

The DF+ just sucks.  Slow focus, finicky, sometimes gets upset and stops working, etc. 

As soon as we got the XF, the DF+ became a paper weight. 

[BobShaw]

I also looked at the 'Blad, but with a relatively small (by MF standards) sensor size I saw a bit o' kit with few options other than selling it after  few years, much as one would do with 35mm gear. It's still in the frame but it's not quite what I am looking for (?).

Well the X1D sensor is 67% bigger than the one you are probably using and not much more investment than a top end Canon or Nikon. Admittedly it is smaller than the H3DII-39 that it replaced for me, but so much more usable.
As for selling it in a few years, well you would be doing that with old kit anyway because it will stop working and be worth nothing.

[eronald]

Well the X1D sensor is 67% bigger than the one you are probably using and not much more investment than a top end Canon or Nikon. Admittedly it is smaller than the H3DII-39 that it replaced for me, but so much more usable.
As for selling it in a few years, well you would be doing that with old kit anyway because it will stop working and be worth nothing.

There are a bunch of HD39s with a 36x48 mm sensor selling for next to nothing eg. $2K out there.
The AF is better than the Phase, the sensor is ok, the software is less good than C1.

Edmund

[ErikKaffehr]

Yes, a larger sensor allowing for different crops would be nice!

Best regards
Erik

have you ever actually held the GFX? it might not be as sexy as the X1D, but it is an incredibly functional camera, and a very well thought out system....i was very impressed with the X1Ds interface but in the end i dont really want to have to swipe to change my aperture....
neither one of these cameras will make you "move up"....you have great work, there is very little to nothing that a top of the line DSLR or mirrorless cant do or wont do better anyway....nikon is coming out with one soon, the mount looks like it might be abble to handle larger sensors, hopefully we can move on from the (now random) 24x36 restrictions of film days....

[tcdeveau]

Personally I'd go for an X1D/GFX (or A7RIII/D850) over the P45 for reasons that people here have mentioned (full disclosure I have an X1D but had previously used an H4D-40).  These days I'd take a FF 35mm with eye AF and an f1.4 lens for DOF with portraiture over a P45 but that's just my subjective viewpoint.  That being said, OP, if you're just looking for something to stir up some creative juices, have the cash sitting around, and don't mind the limitations of the older tech, go for it.  I've thought about picking up a P45+ myself for my tech cam for fun and just to have something to shoot the tech cam with (that's not film) that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. 

I'd also recommend anyone looking to "take the plunge" now to wait a couple months.  With the next-gen 100mp 33x44mm and 150mp 40x54mm cameras on the horizon, I'd wait to jump into MF until after those are announced or released and see how the market shakes out.  There's always a chance that older CCD offerings like the P45 may depreciate further and get cheaper on the used market as they'd be yet another generation behind.  The current GFX and X1D bodies will also get cheaper in stores and on the second hand market.  That may not happen of course, but I think it's worth waiting a little bit and seeing what happens. 

Just my 2 cents, but you do you OP.  I never regretted jumping into MF with a CCD sensor when the D800 was out in the wild along side of it, but the MF landscape was much different a couple years ago.  When I got the H4D-40, there were no mirrorless MF options available, nor any MF cameras available as capable as the GFX and X1D at the current price points of the GFX and X1D.   

Haven't read through the entire thread, so forgive me if it's been mentioned already, but another option to consider if you haven't already would be a Hasselblad-mount P45 with a Hasselblad body and 80mm HC lens.  There are plenty of older H-mount phase backs out there these days for decent prices.  That way you also don't have to deal with the DF/DF+, and there are plenty of reasonably priced HC lenses out there these days that will perform just fine on the P45.  Plus I think you can throw a 120 film back on the H1 and H2 bodies if that's your fancy, but someone can feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.  Whatever you go for, I'd try before you buy if you can. 

[BobShaw]

have you ever actually held the GFX? it might not be as sexy as the X1D, but it is an incredibly functional camera, and a very well thought out system....i was very impressed with the X1Ds interface but in the end i dont really want to have to swipe to change my aperture....

You can change the X1D aperture with the control wheels like any other camera or use the rear screen.

[pschefz]

You can change the X1D aperture with the control wheels like any other camera or use the rear screen.

i should have said that i prefer the old school manual dials for iso, shutter and f stop on the GFX, which also lets you use the command wheels to do this....i do know that the X1D allows this as well.....as much as i like Teslas, i really, really do not like touchscreen interfaces that force me to take my eyes off the road....
the X1D interface is the best i have seen from any camera (although it would be much harder to replicate it with the much more complicated options of for example the sony AF settings) and i really like how they have done it, but after shooting sony and such for a while, going to the GFX really made me appreciate the simple dials and on lens f stop....