Kind of Blue

[RMW]

Hello All.

Have recently encountered a problem with screen to print matching. The printed blues are pale compared to the on screen blues.

Here's a rundown of the workflow on the attached photo:

1. Calibrated iMac 2011 screen with a Color Munki. Use Adobe Pro Photo. The image was over 100 megabytes.
2. Just rechecked setup for color management according to Andrew Rodney 2018 video.
3. Rechecked Custom Proof Condition. Use Moab ICC profile.
4. Softproofed: Matched simulated image with ICC profile to un-simulated image- as I usually do.
5. Ran complete nozzle check and head cleaning on Epson R2880.
6. Used fresh paper.

Usually my print to screen matches are pretty good. But not with this image or a couple of others I recently tried. And here's what baffles me, too. When I run a color/b&w test print it comes out just right.

(I started seeing this problem last Friday.)

Would appreciate any suggestions for where to look for the problem.

Thanks!

Richard
richardwallerphotos.com

[Simon J.A. Simpson]

Have you tried printing with a different rendering intent ?  For example: 'Relative' instead of 'Perceptual' ?

Sometimes this can help get a better rendition of a print relative to the screen image.

[ColourPhil]

Is an iMac 2011 screen in Adobe RGB colour space?
If not, could be that you can't display some 'blues' correctly.
Have you tried printing a 'standard' image without correction?
How is it with other papers (with correct profiles)?

Cheers,
Phil

[Simon J.A. Simpson]

A 2011 iMac does not have an Adobe 2018 colour space (I have the same iMac).

The OP can check whether the blue is within gamut by doing a gamut check – easier in Lightroom which offers the facility when proofing in the Develop module.

The attached JPG does not a profile attached to it but assigning ProPhoto RGB makes the very pale water water a pale turquoise blue (there might be a clue here ?).

I have checked the resulting image in Lightroom and it is within the gamut of the iMac's monitor.

[RMW]

Thank you both for offering suggestions.

Simon, Thanks for checking out of gamut. Attached jpg was originally PhotoPro. It was converted to sRGB for this forum.  I tried Perceptual instead of Relative Colorimetric, but saw no discernible difference.

Phil, tried printing a 'standard image' (which I take to mean one without an ICC for printing) without correction and got the the same very pale blues. Previously, the screen's vibrant blues could be matched in the print.

Will go to Epson website to see what I can learn.

Richard

 

[Garnick]

Hello Richard,

This is rather confusing.  I assume this .jpg that you have included is the image you are referring to.  Therefore, a question.  How does this image displayed here in this forum look on your iMac.  My reason for asking is that I see no vibrant blues at all on my calibrated NEC PA27 display.  As a matter of fact, the blues are rather pale on my display.  I do of course realize that images displayed on this or any forum are not necessarily a good reference of how it might appear on your display, but as I see it, this is not a good image to use as your example of "vibrant blues". Also, I think perhaps what Phil meant by a "standard" image is one that you know you can count on to print the same every time, unless there is indeed a problem with your printer.  Perhaps something like the "Bill Atkinson" image, or others from "Outback" or Andrew Rodney's site as examples.  In those cases you would of course not make any adjustments, simply print with the icc profile for the paper you are using at the time.  These are excellent images for visually evaluating the performance of your printer if you suspect a problem.  If the "standard" image prints properly you can then rule out the printer as the source of the problem.  Just a thought.

Gary           

[BobShaw]

A 2011 iMac does not have an Adobe 2018 colour space (I have the same iMac).

It sure does. Go System Preferences / Displays / iMac / Color / Adobe RGB (1998)

If you mean a 2011 iMac screen can not display all of the colours in the Adobe RGB colour space then that is true, but it can certainly be in the Adobe RGB or any other colour space.
Semantics means a lot with this stuff.
The Op's first line of "Use Adobe Pro Photo." has me asking what does that mean?

[Pete Berry]

Hello Richard,

This is rather confusing.  I assume this .jpg that you have included is the image you are referring to.  Therefore, a question.  How does this image displayed here in this forum look on your iMac.  My reason for asking is that I see no vibrant blues at all on my calibrated NEC PA27 display.  As a matter of fact, the blues are rather pale on my display. 
Gary           

As on my old Gateway 24" LCD 1080 monitor, which shows only subtle, faint blues in the image. It displays vibrant, saturated, blues on the several printer test images I use, and normal gradients in continuous spectra and color bars...
Pete

[Simon J.A. Simpson]

It sure does. Go System Preferences / Displays / iMac / Color / Adobe RGB (1998)

If you mean a 2011 iMac screen can not display all of the colours in the Adobe RGB colour space then that is true, but it can certainly be in the Adobe RGB or any other colour space.
Semantics means a lot with this stuff.
The Op's first line of "Use Adobe Pro Photo." has me asking what does that mean?

CORRECTION:  A 2011 iMac display does not have an Adobe 2018 colour space (I have the same iMac).

"Use Adobe Pro Photo." has me asking what does that mean?
I assumed this to mean that the image was in the ProPhoto RGB colour space.  My assumption is confirmed as correct in the OP's post #276.

[Simon J.A. Simpson]

Hello Richard,

This is rather confusing.  I assume this .jpg that you have included is the image you are referring to.  Therefore, a question.  How does this image displayed here in this forum look on your iMac.  My reason for asking is that I see no vibrant blues at all on my calibrated NEC PA27 display.  As a matter of fact, the blues are rather pale on my display.  I do of course realize that images displayed on this or any forum are not necessarily a good reference of how it might appear on your display, but as I see it, this is not a good image to use as your example of "vibrant blues". Also, I think perhaps what Phil meant by a "standard" image is one that you know you can count on to print the same every time, unless there is indeed a problem with your printer.  Perhaps something like the "Bill Atkinson" image, or others from "Outback" or Andrew Rodney's site as examples.  In those cases you would of course not make any adjustments, simply print with the icc profile for the paper you are using at the time.  These are excellent images for visually evaluating the performance of your printer if you suspect a problem.  If the "standard" image prints properly you can then rule out the printer as the source of the problem.  Just a thought.

Gary           

You will not see any vibrant blues on your monitor since the posted image has no profile attached to it.  You need to attach a ProPhoto RGB profiles to see the blues displayed correctly.

I thought my post #398 makes this clear ?

[RMW]

Hello All.

Sorry for any confusion. Let me try to clear them up.

-- I attached the jpg to give an idea of the sort of blues I was dealing with. Not vibrant blues, but ones with some subtlety.
-- About the " Use Adobe ProPhoto" I meant that the assigned color profile to the original was ProPhoto. And it's color mode was RGB.
-- The jpg on here has a color profile of sRGB in accordance with LuLa's suggested guidelines.

I have printed a number of test images- I think they're from Andrew Rodney- and they look fine.

I contacted Epson who said I should replace cartridges in case they're faulty so I did replace cyan, but with no change. I also went back to older files and printed them to check the blues and they look OK. So it seems to be only recent files that have this problem. To rule out camera trouble I processed and printed files from both my cameras (Nikon 610 and Sigma DP2Q) and they both exhibit the same blue problem.

Thank you all again for taking the time to go into this with me.

Richard

[Simon J.A. Simpson]

Hi Richard.

A thought to share with you.

I've just been printing a subtly blue-tinted image on my Canon printer and I note that I have needed to increase the blue a bit in order to get it to match the blue-tint on the screen.

I've tried two different papers and in part this seems to be due to the fact that my chosen paper has a slightly creamier base; BUT the other cooler base paper does also need some help.

I have found that whilst many images print very well straight from Photoshop or Lightroom some seem to need a little bit of tweaking to get them to match the screen and thus represent on paper my intentions.

[RMW]

Hi Simon.
I have been tweaking the color a little bit. The Moab paper is a bit cool so I slightly warmed the image.
This morning I went back and started everything from scratch, but the new prints look the same as the old ones. Still can't figure out why things changed so much, so quickly.
My next step might be to reinstall PS because I don't think the printer or the monitor is the problem.
Thanks again for your kind concern.
Richard

[Doug Gray]

The blue colors are not very saturated. They are well within sRGB, let alone ProPhoto.

I think the problem may be a mismatch between your display CCT (at 6500K?) and the paper illuminant. 6500K is much bluer and the image doesn't really have strong whites for vision to fully color adapt. If I switch between 5000K and 6500K the blues appear significantly stronger. Also, when dealing with low saturation colors small differences are more noticeable and it is more important to get a good white point match for the print display and monitor.

The image is very calming. Nice effect.

[Garnick]

Hello All.

Sorry for any confusion. Let me try to clear them up.

-- I attached the jpg to give an idea of the sort of blues I was dealing with. Not vibrant blues, but ones with some subtlety.
-- About the " Use Adobe ProPhoto" I meant that the assigned color profile to the original was ProPhoto. And it's color mode was RGB.
-- The jpg on here has a color profile of sRGB in accordance with LuLa's suggested guidelines.

I have printed a number of test images- I think they're from Andrew Rodney- and they look fine.

I contacted Epson who said I should replace cartridges in case they're faulty so I did replace cyan, but with no change. I also went back to older files and printed them to check the blues and they look OK. So it seems to be only recent files that have this problem. To rule out camera trouble I processed and printed files from both my cameras (Nikon 610 and Sigma DP2Q) and they both exhibit the same blue problem.

Thank you all again for taking the time to go into this with me.

Richard

Re the underlined sentence above - had you ever printed these "test" images before this issue was first noticed.  If not, you really don't have any reference.  The point of a "test" image is to make sure it is printed when you are confident that your printer is in top working order.  I have at least 6 images from various sources that I use, to make sure my printer is delivering the best print possible under any particular circumstance.  I print at least 4 of the images on every substrate I use when I know the printer is working properly.  Therefore I have reference prints to view if there's any suspicion of a printer induced issue.  If you do indeed have such reference prints available, and if the recent prints of those image files match the reference prints, then you can probably rule out the possibility of this issue being related to the printer performance.  Therefore, start looking elsewhere.  There have been some helpful replies, but what it all boils down to IMO is the old dilemma of display to print matching.  After all, isn't the print the most important part of the equation?  You make the image adjustments to suit your liking, as it is displayed on your monitor.  You then print a test strip, or whatever method you use.  View that test strip and make further adjustments if necessary.  In all likelihood the final print will not necessarily match your display 100%.  Assuming your display is properly calibrated and profiled it is indeed a very good place to start, but it is never the end product of your efforts. 

Gary         

 

[BobShaw]

Hello All.

Sorry for any confusion. Let me try to clear them up.

-- I attached the jpg to give an idea of the sort of blues I was dealing with. Not vibrant blues, but ones with some subtlety.
-- About the " Use Adobe ProPhoto" I meant that the assigned color profile to the original was ProPhoto. And it's color mode was RGB.
-- The jpg on here has a color profile of sRGB in accordance with LuLa's suggested guidelines.

I have printed a number of test images- I think they're from Andrew Rodney- and they look fine.

I contacted Epson who said I should replace cartridges in case they're faulty so I did replace cyan, but with no change. I also went back to older files and printed them to check the blues and they look OK. So it seems to be only recent files that have this problem. To rule out camera trouble I processed and printed files from both my cameras (Nikon 610 and Sigma DP2Q) and they both exhibit the same blue problem.

Thank you all again for taking the time to go into this with me.

Richard

Some comments line by line.
- Not vibrant blues. - agree, should be able to print.
- Assigned colour profile - that is a problem. If you "assign" a profile without being absolutely sure of what profile it is then you change the colours. You would normally only assign sRGB. Everything else you would "convert".
- The jpg has a colour profile of sRGB. No it doesn't.  If you do CMD-I it will tell you the colour profile. There is none shown. Try the same on a TIFF. If possible attach a TIFF.
- Have printed a test image and it is fine. If this has occurred now with the same printer, paper and printer profile then all of these are OK. There is no need to keep playing with them.

A great tool is the Digital Colour Meter. Some scoff at it but it is free and gives you the RGB values of what the computer sees. Unfortunately it does not do Pro Photo RGB but you can test them in Adobe RGB and any mismatch should be obvious.

Colour Management is a science. There is not much guess work. It is just numbers. If you follow the process it works.
It reminds me of the episode of Home Improvements when the Mum compliments the kid on how well he made the cake.
Mum - It never tastes that good when I make it. What did you do
Kid - Nothing, I just followed the recipe.
Good Luck