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Author Topic: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne  (Read 2540 times)

spassig

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Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« on: June 11, 2018, 01:19:50 AM »

Hello

I see in a brochure that PO offer seven different digibacks.

IQ1 two digibacks.
IQ1 100 MP
IQ1   50 MP

IQ3 five digibacks.
IQ3 100 MP Trichromatic
IQ3 100 MP
IQ3 100 MP Achromatic
IQ3   80 MP
IQ3   50 MP

I know the reason by Achromatic.

What's the reason for the other?

Jochen
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2018, 03:00:41 AM »

My view:
- IQ1 are cheaper version from which some functions were removed to lower the price point to remain competitive with Hasselblad without madening too much existing IQ3 customers
- the 100mp versions are based on the true MF 54x41mm sensor
- the 50mp versions are using the same small MF 33x44mm sensor found in the X1D and GFX
- the IQ3 80 is an older CCD back
- the trichromatic version uses an improved color filter

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 05:24:23 AM by BernardLanguillier »
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spassig

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2018, 04:50:41 AM »

My view:
- IQ1 are cheaper version from which some functions were removed to lower the price point to remain competitive with Hasselblad without madening too much existing IQ3 customers
- the 100mp versions are based on the true MF 54x41mm sensor
- the 50mp versions are using the same small MF 33x44mm sensor found in the X1D and GFX
- the trichromatic version uses an improved color filter

Cheers,
Bernard

@Bernhard
Thanks for quick feedback.
Currently I use a Hasselblad 503CW with PO digiback P45.
In the last week I took same landscape pictures with my own Sony A7II and borrow Fuji GFX50S.
At moment I compare the pictures.
If I would buy a new camera (Fuji or PO) I will know the history of PO digibacks.
„Hmm. Must I buy a new camera?“ ;)

Jochen


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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2018, 05:22:54 AM »

No idea whether you "need" a new camera... ;)

I find the image quality of the 100mp backs (I own a H6D-100c but it is very similar) to be outstanding.

Frankly speaking, I would wait until September because odds are you are going to be able to buy an X2D/GFX 100s for a lot less than the current 100mp large MF backs.

One question is whether 24x26/33x44/36x48/41x54 make a difference and where MF really starts... ;)

There is a real difference of look btwn 24x36 and 41x54, that I know but I personnally find that the gap btwn 24x36 and 33x44 is too small to justify the huge difference of price and the significant loss of capability. But that's just me.

Cheers,
Bernard

spassig

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2018, 10:49:14 AM »

Frankly speaking, I would wait until September because odds are you are going to be able to buy an X2D/GFX 100s for a lot less than the current 100mp large MF backs.
Cheers,
Bernard
September = Photokina 2018 Cologne or other reason?

Now I start comparing the RAW pictures from 503CW+P45/ Sony A7II/ Fuji GFX50S with wide-angle-lens and tele-lens.
All with f8, f11, f16.
All with good same distance settings.
All pictures with tripoid.
I use Adobe Raw Converter > Automatic and Photoshop CC without additional settings.
I use 100 % view.
I see disparities but what is the best?
I mean that 503CW+P45 is very good.

Jochen
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 12:16:51 PM »

Now I start comparing the RAW pictures from 503CW+P45/ Sony A7II/ Fuji GFX50S with wide-angle-lens and tele-lens.
All with f8, f11, f16.
All with good same distance settings.
All pictures with tripoid.
I use Adobe Raw Converter > Automatic and Photoshop CC without additional settings.
I use 100 % view.
I see disparities but what is the best?
I mean that 503CW+P45 is very good.

The P45+ is from 2007 based on a sensor from 2005.

In my (highly biased) opinion, the fact that you find it compares well for your needs to the current GFX is a testament to the longevity and image quality provided by investing in Phase One, and a strong argument to stay in the Phase One family.

Moreover, if you redid that comparison in Capture One instead of Adobe Camera Raw you will likely find the 45+ even stronger. There's a lot to be said for using software made specifically for the hardware you're using, especially for more subtle things like tonal smoothness and color rendering.

Joe Towner

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2018, 10:59:21 PM »

Yes, it becomes a bit soupy when trying to make sense of the model numbers, especially since some of them are relative to the mount.  What are you looking to accomplish and how do you currently shoot with your P45?  Are you hitting any limitations?

Since you're use to working with a CCD, you have the ability to stick in that space with the 60mp & 80mp backs that can be had at a discount. The 50mp CMOS is great, but the sensor is smaller than what you're use to (as seen in the GFX) so your focal lengths aren't quite the same.

The best one is the best for your application.  The IQ series backs is much faster than the P backs, plus with the higher resolution of either the 60mp or 80mp, you're getting a bigger file than from the 50mp CMOS chip.  If you're looking for higher ISO performance, the 50mp CMOS is a better fit.
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jng

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 12:19:12 AM »

Up until recently I was using the 60 Mp CCD IQ160 on my V system Hasselblad (I've recently migrated it to a tech cam). It's a great combination if (and it's a big "if") you can focus the bloody contraption. Let's just say that the higher resolution sensors are not at all forgiving of anything but perfect focus, which is a function of both the photographer and the focusing path being in proper alignment. I am not surprised that you like the rendering on the P45 - perhaps this is a combination of the larger format and old Zeiss lenses.

Advantages of staying with a V-mount full frame (i.e., 40x54) Phase back are that they can give stunning image quality, can be found relatively cheap on the used market, and allow you to use Capture One for RAW developing and post-processing. But the more modern CMOS backs and X1D/GFX are certainly easier to work with in the field. I recently started using the X1D to complement the IQ160. It's great for certain applications (e.g., low light/high ISO) and shows the legendary Hassy colors, but I still prefer the look of the IQ160 images.

John
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 12:22:23 AM by jng »
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spassig

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 07:49:05 AM »

@all

Thanks for helpfully feedback.
In the past I don't compare different RAWs from different camera systems.
Now I will compare this.
Is there a reference available in which way I should analyse the quality of the three systems?
Looking quality in shadows?
Looking quality in lights?
Some other analysing?

I have all three different RAW formats open in PS CC.
Is it sensefull to convert the RAWs from Sony A7II and Fuji GFX 50S (maybe the PO format) in DNG?
Than I can open the Sony A7II and Fuji GFX 50S RAWs (maybe the PO format) in Capture One.

(Discussion this I should generate a new topic?)

Jochen
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douglevy

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 11:21:18 AM »

Analyze them in how they fit into how you shoot and light, and work, and what your clients need and what you deliver. You can read internet boards all day, but the real value is if/how it fits for you.

spassig

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 11:45:41 AM »

Hello

I have post a new topic for discussion for analyse the quality of different RAWs

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=125294.0

Jochen
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jensputzier

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2018, 02:38:54 AM »

No idea whether you "need" a new camera... ;)

I find the image quality of the 100mp backs (I own a H6D-100c but it is very similar) to be outstanding.

Frankly speaking, I would wait until September because odds are you are going to be able to buy an X2D/GFX 100s for a lot less than the current 100mp large MF backs.

One question is whether 24x26/33x44/36x48/41x54 make a difference and where MF really starts... ;)

There is a real difference of look btwn 24x36 and 41x54, that I know but I personnally find that the gap btwn 24x36 and 33x44 is too small to justify the huge difference of price and the significant loss of capability. But that's just me.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard,

it is so nice that you answered all of my questions I was just going to ask in a short and simple post.

I have had Contax 35mm and Zenza Bronica MF in the past and use a Nikon D850 today.

I was wondering whether a 50MP sensor in the Hasselblad or Fuji would be a "real" improvement over the Nikon and whether the sensor size would qualify as MF at all (compared to 6x6 or 6x7 in the film era).

Jens
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2018, 02:57:14 AM »

I was wondering whether a 50MP sensor in the Hasselblad or Fuji would be a "real" improvement over the Nikon and whether the sensor size would qualify as MF at all (compared to 6x6 or 6x7 in the film era).

I know others would disagree, but my personal view is that the difference between the 50mp 33x44mm sensor and the D850 is not worth the cost in itself. There may be other aspects of the system for specific applications that paint things in a different light (need for leaf shutter lenses, need for a specific lens such as the Hasselblad 21mm f4 that may be the best wide angle ever designed,...).

Things could be different after Sony releases their 100mp sensor because it is probably going to take a longer time for DSLRs to catch up from an image quality standpoint and the usability of the X2D/GFX should be closer to 35mm DSLRs.

Cheers,
Bernard

jensputzier

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2018, 10:43:03 AM »

I know others would disagree, but my personal view is that the difference between the 50mp 33x44mm sensor and the D850 is not worth the cost in itself.

Cheers,
Bernard

I looked at all the options and as of today the H6D 100c seems to be the "cheapest" "real" MF camera.

Before one ( 8) ) would invest that amount of money, what are the chances that there is a

a) higher resolution Hasselblad or
b) significantly cheaper 100MP camera with the large sensor size either from Hasselbald or another manufacturer?

in the near future?

Cheers
Jens
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tcdeveau

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2018, 12:54:58 PM »

I looked at all the options and as of today the H6D 100c seems to be the "cheapest" "real" MF camera.

Before one ( 8) ) would invest that amount of money, what are the chances that there is a

a) higher resolution Hasselblad or
b) significantly cheaper 100MP camera with the large sensor size either from Hasselbald or another manufacturer?

in the near future?

Cheers
Jens

Regarding a), Sony's sensor roadmap has long been published, which includes a 100mp 33x44mm sensor and a 150mp 40x54mm sensor.  These are most certainly destined for the X2D and H7D, respectively, and could be announced as early as Photokina in September of 2018.  When they actually be shipping to customers is a different question, but most of us are expecting them to be available this time next year. 

Regarding b), that is unknown, however the prices of currently available 40x54mm 100mp systems will certainly go down on the used market once the 100mp 33x44mm cameras are out in force. 

Hasselblad also has a trade-in program (https://www.hasselblad.com/trade-in/), and if you're looking into a new H6D-100c right now, that's probably the best route to go.  You could easily buy an H4D-40 or H5D-40 and trade it in towards an H6D-100c and save a lot of $$. You could also find a used H6D-100c or IQ3100 for around $20-21k USD if you look. 

I personally would hold off on purchasing a 100mp MF camera right now unless you absolutely need it.  Yes, there's always something new around the corner, but the new 100mp 33x44mm sensor is going to shake things up quite a bit and is a pretty big leap forward IMHO.  Digital cameras are also not great investments, and digital MF especially depreciates pretty steeply.  There's a chance a new 100mp MF camera today may be worth half to 2/3 of what you paid for it this time next year given what we know about the next-gen sensors and speculate about the next-gen cameras.  If you don't need CMOS and just want 40x54mm, there's always the H4D/H5D-60 and P65+,IQx60, and IQx80s you can find well under $10k USD.     

All that said, there's also the consideration that the best camera is the one you have on you, and it might not make sense to wait if you need something to shoot with now.   
-Todd
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #15 on: June 27, 2018, 04:09:29 PM »

I looked at all the options and as of today the H6D 100c seems to be the "cheapest" "real" MF camera.

I don't know where you are located, and both currency and specials/bundles etc can change the math a bit here or there, but once you account for the fact the Phase One XF IQ kits come with a lens and the H6D does not the list prices here in the USA:

Those prices are for new-condition kits. Notably there is a sale on Phsae One Certiified Pre-Owned kits (20% off the normal CPO pricing) with standard warranty.

Some of the features the XF has the H6 does not:
- Built-in Profoto Air transmitter
- Built-in Profoto TTL
- Built-in Profoto Air Manual Control
- Built-in Focus Trim tool for auto lens calibration
- Flash duration meter
- Vibration analysis during capture
- Vibration-drive for delaying capture until vibration has subsided
- Automatic Focus Stacking
- Icon control for putting only the tools on screen you need
- Bright, modern LCD
- Metering while using a Waist Level Finder
- Time lapse capture, including metadata tags integrated to C1
- Exposure bracketing, including metadata tags integrated to C1
- Upward-facing bulls-eye level
- Hyperfocal focus setting
- Touch screen interface (with optional hard buttons for when you're wearing non-touch gloves)


Some of the features the IQ has the H6D does not:
- 3-axis level that integrates with C1 for automatic control of horizon and perspective
- Adjustable highlight warning point
- IIQ-S slightly-lossy compressed format (the difference between this and lossless compression is extremely hard to see even when you push the file around and know where to look) in addition to the lossless IIQ-L format
- Histogram without blocking the view of the overall image
- blinkies in the thumbnail without obfiscating the main image

The Phase One system is also directly integrated with Capture One. The H6D is not and will not be supported in Capture One.

I'd suggest as part of your purchase research to look at the last 5-8 years of product releases and feature improvements and take note of what both Hasselblad and Phase One have been up to in that period. When were the lenses in the current lineup released? What new investments have they shown in their respective 645-sized bodies? What new features have they released on their bodies, backs, and software? Where is their focus and attention?

Of course, I'm wildly biased (we choose to sell P1 and choose not to sell Hassy) so you should consult with a Hasselblad dealer on the unique features and arguments in favor of the H6 platform. My main point is only that you should definitely include checking out a P1 while you're checking out a Hassy. Even if you were leaning toward the Hassy I'd tell you the same thing. Either way it's going to be a large investment, so it's only sensible to put your hands on both before you go with either.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 03:24:17 PM by Doug Peterson »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #16 on: June 27, 2018, 07:07:22 PM »

Doug,

Many good points here, but the H6D has a best in class touch UI that I personnally find superior to that of the IQ.

Pricewise I believe that you should compare both top ends with tech camera capabilities and the H6D should therefore be compared to the IQ3.

Finally, the XF is an excellent tripod camera but I find the H6D superior for handheld shooting thanks to its more compact, lighter body and superior mirror damping.

Cheers,
Bernard

jensputzier

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #17 on: June 28, 2018, 09:14:44 AM »

Thank you to all of you for your valuable input.

I have taken the hint not go ahead and get a 100MP camera before Photokina 18 respectively in the next months to come.

I have decided to go for a X1D 50c set with three lenses that is currently sold at a great price here. So I will get a feeling of 50MP MF compared to the D850 with Zeiss lenses.

Either this is great or not. If not, we might see a X1D 100c or I can sell the set without loosing 10k.

Now I am excited to see whether it will arrive before the weekend!
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Steve Goldsmith

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #18 on: June 28, 2018, 03:10:36 PM »

Just a bit of clarification on Doug's pricing comments:

An IQ3 series 100mp back, not a 2nd tier IQ1 series back is "a little bit" more expensive than the IQ1

From the DT website-

Phase One IQ3 100mp Kit with XF camera body and 80mm LS lens “Blue Ring”.
$46,990.00

https://digitaltransitions.com/product/phase-one-iq3-100mp-system/
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Why seven different digibacks by PhaseOne
« Reply #19 on: June 28, 2018, 03:22:48 PM »

Just a bit of clarification on Doug's pricing comments:

An IQ3 series 100mp back, not a 2nd tier IQ1 series back is "a little bit" more expensive than the IQ1

From the DT website-

Phase One IQ3 100mp Kit with XF camera body and 80mm LS lens “Blue Ring”.
$46,990.00

https://digitaltransitions.com/product/phase-one-iq3-100mp-system/

"2nd tier" is, I guess, meant to be a derogatory comment? The penultimate Bugatti is still a pretty freaking amazing car, even if it has a handful fewer bells and whistles than the top-of-the-line Bugatti.

The list of technical features and advantages I provided, compared to an H6D-100c was for an XF IQ1 kit, as was the price. I don't think the H6D-100c really compares to an IQ1, but it's the closest Hasselblad has, so it's what I compared to.

If we were comparing to an XF IQ3 we would add the following additional advantages compared to the H6D-100c:
- 5 year warranty on all components with loaner provided during any service of any component
- Zone System exposure heat map
- Long Exposure Calculator
- Sensor temperature monitor readout

Notably the IQ3 price is with your choice of Blue Ring lens so using the 80mm as your choice would be quite silly since it's the least expensive lens. This is a great example of why you should be working with a professional, dedicated, experienced dealer. It makes me sad to think of someone buying an IQ3 kit with an 80mm lens.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2018, 03:55:07 PM by Doug Peterson »
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