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Author Topic: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock  (Read 1518 times)

deliberate1

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Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« on: June 10, 2018, 10:45:55 PM »

When B&H ran a deal a couple months ago I bought a stash of this paper - 24" rolls and 13x19 sheets. I am very impressed with the output from my Epson 7800, with both color and B&W images. But most of the images I have printed with the roll stock are unsalable because of scratches that happen in the course of the printing process. Some vertical. Some horizontal. Some swirls. I had read that the surface is tender but had no idea how fragile it truly is. Even brushing the surface with a fine static brush leaves its mark. I got a swiffer which seems to work without damage.
So I am trying to determine what in the printing process causes this problem. The amount and location of abrasion varies from print to print. The sheets do not scratch, so it must have something to do with the stiff curvature of the roll stock and the way it travels through the machine. Those of you who have one of these printers know that the printing feeding process begins with a short cycle during which the machine essentially unrolls some of the paper from the roll, creating some "slack" which actually rubs up against the frame of the machine just aft of the roll. So I cut a strip of glossy paper 24" wide and taped it where the paper would otherwise rub up against the machine. I am also printing with the widest platen gap setting. Perhaps I should just cut the size I need off the roll and feed it as sheet stock. But that is most inconvenient and would not address the curvature issue unless I somehow flattened the paper before use. And handling it just increases the risk of damage.
Would appreciate any suggestions from those of you who have addressed this problem. And failing that, options for a similar paper that is not so fragile.
Many thanks,
David
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Ryan Mack

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2018, 07:44:32 AM »

I have up on roll printing with this paper for that reason and switched to photo silk baryta which is luster and more scratch resistant. Still print sheets on gloss baryta but only if Iím mounting and framing because I donít trust anyone else to handle my prints without scratching them.
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mearussi

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2018, 09:40:50 AM »

Sorry you bought so much of the paper, but if you want to continue to use a Baryta without worrying about it scratching then switch to Canson's Baryta Prestige. It has a very fine luster like surface that not only minimizes reflections but is also fairly tough and scratch resistant while still looking very good.
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deliberate1

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2018, 10:12:58 AM »

I have up on roll printing with this paper for that reason and switched to photo silk baryta which is luster and more scratch resistant. Still print sheets on gloss baryta but only if Iím mounting and framing because I donít trust anyone else to handle my prints without scratching them.

Ryan,
Obliged for yours. Apparently, I am not alone. Could you describe, to the extent you can, what the surface finish of the silk baryta is. You said it is "luster," which conjures soft, high school portraits. But the product description from Hahnemuhle uses the terms "white silky gloss," which does not match my impression of a luster paper. Perhaps you could compare it to the gloss baryta in terms of color and texture. Can I assume that you have not had scratching issues with this roll stock? And is it as stiff?
Thanks again.
David
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deliberate1

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2018, 10:24:24 AM »

Sorry you bought so much of the paper, but if you want to continue to use a Baryta without worrying about it scratching then switch to Canson's Baryta Prestige. It has a very fine luster like surface that not only minimizes reflections but is also fairly tough and scratch resistant while still looking very good.

Thanks for the commiseration. Actually, the investment was not too bad. I bought two 24" rolls and three boxes of 13x19, all at half price. The boxes are usable, though there is a fair amount of speckle on some of the sheets. But no print lesions. I have used much of the first roll, with a couple salvageable prints. And, I suspect that B&H would take the other back given the circumstances.
Could you kindly describe the texture of the surface and color of the Canson. Again, Canson describes this as "smooth baryta gloss," which does not comport to my impression of a "luster" finish, as I describe above. If you are familiar with the Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta, a comparison would be most helpful.
Much obliged for your help.
David
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stockjock

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 03:32:53 PM »

Sorry you bought so much of the paper, but if you want to continue to use a Baryta without worrying about it scratching then switch to Canson's Baryta Prestige. It has a very fine luster like surface that not only minimizes reflections but is also fairly tough and scratch resistant while still looking very good.

I know you are a fan of the Baryta Prestige (I am not) but the surface bears absolutely no resemblance to the unique and gorgeous Gloss Baryta.  It really isn't appropriate to suggest it as a potential substitute.
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mearussi

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2018, 08:27:56 AM »

I know you are a fan of the Baryta Prestige (I am not) but the surface bears absolutely no resemblance to the unique and gorgeous Gloss Baryta.  It really isn't appropriate to suggest it as a potential substitute.
To each his own. When I first started experimenting with printing I bought virtually every sampler box on the market both glossy/satin and matte. The Barytas were beautiful but all had surfaces that were too fragile for practical use so I never used them for more than testing and settled on Canson's Platine as my primary paper as it gave me the best combination of good color and decent handling. But when the Prestige came out I was curious so asked Canson for some samples which they kindly sent.

On my printer (7800) the paper produced colors that were even better than the Platine plus it had a surface that was both tough and broke up the typical glossy reflections (which I don't like) while still maintaining a high color saturation, so I switched to it as my main paper.

But you are certainly correct that anyone who wants a high gloss look would not be satisfied with its more textured surface. But then again if I wanted a high gloss look I wouldn't be printing on paper at all but on polyester which has a gloss no paper can match due to its perfectly smooth surface. 
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mearussi

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2018, 09:09:26 AM »


Could you kindly describe the texture of the surface and color of the Canson. Again, Canson describes this as "smooth baryta gloss," which does not comport to my impression of a "luster" finish, as I describe above. If you are familiar with the Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta, a comparison would be most helpful.
Much obliged for your help.
David
PR speak and reality are more often than not two completely things. The reality is that it has a noticeably textured surface designed to both give it a tough easily handled surface and cut down on reflections. It's also a very stiff paper typical of all alpha-cellulose papers which I don't care for (I much prefer the handling of 100% cotton papers). But the surface texture lacks the (irritating to me) regular pattern of the standard luster surface and has a more random pattern which I prefer. Difficult to describe beyond this. But if you're wanting a high gloss surface this is not it.

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John Caldwell

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2018, 12:16:43 PM »

HFA Gloss Baryta roll material always emerged from my Epson 4900 with surface distress. Our Epson 9900 made beautiful prints on roll paper, while the cut sheets of Gloss Baryta printed on both machines. No problems so far printing roll paper on our new Canon Pro 4000.

... Difficult to describe beyond this. But if you're wanting a high gloss surface this is not it.

Is the Prestige material similar to the Baryta Photographique, in terms of surface, white point and colors? Is it true that you might prefer the Prestige over Baryta Photographique over surface characteristics alone? The 340gm weight makes me uneasy about head strikes, after the experience with the Breathing Color Baryta (345 at the time) a couple years ago. Is it an issue, with heavy curl and such? A selling point is, apparently, that it lies pretty flat.


Thank you,

John Caldwell
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 02:32:21 PM by John Caldwell »
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stockjock

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2018, 04:18:03 PM »


But you are certainly correct that anyone who wants a high gloss look would not be satisfied with its more textured surface. But then again if I wanted a high gloss look I wouldn't be printing on paper at all but on polyester which has a gloss no paper can match due to its perfectly smooth surface.

I would not describe the Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta as being a high gloss surface or look.  It is quite a unique surface though I haven't tested the Hahnemuhle replacement which may be similar.  The problem with the polyester "papers" that I have tested is that they have quite a bit of gloss differential with pigment inks.

Personally, I dislike the shimmery surface of the Baryta Prestige but I agree with most of your other characterizations of the paper.
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John Caldwell

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2018, 05:15:46 PM »

I would not describe the Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta as being a high gloss surface or look.  It is quite a unique surface though I haven't tested the Hahnemuhle replacement which may be similar.  The problem with the polyester "papers" that I have tested is that they have quite a bit of gloss differential with pigment inks.

Personally, I dislike the shimmery surface of the Baryta Prestige but I agree with most of your other characterizations of the paper.

Is the OP discussing the Harman paper or the HFA Gloss Baryta?
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mearussi

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2018, 05:33:17 PM »

HFA Gloss Baryta roll material always emerged from my Epson 4900 with surface distress. Our Epson 9900 made beautiful prints on roll paper, while the cut sheets of Gloss Baryta printed on both machines. No problems so far printing roll paper on our new Canon Pro 4000.

Is the Prestige material similar to the Baryta Photographique, in terms of surface, white point and colors? Is it true that you might prefer the Prestige over Baryta Photographique over surface characteristics alone? The 340gm weight makes me uneasy about head strikes, after the experience with the Breathing Color Baryta (345 at the time) a couple years ago. Is it an issue, with heavy curl and such? A selling point is, apparently, that it lies pretty flat.


Thank you,

John Caldwell
"Lying pretty flat" is again PR marketing as it behaves pretty much like every other alpha-cellulose paper I've used, i.e. like poster board, which is why I prefer 100% cotton. But the improvement in color and overall clarity is noticeable compared to Canson's Baryta, which I did not care for that much. But again, this is with my 7800. YMMV

The surface is also different, a little less smooth if I remember correctly than the Baryta (but I don't have any of the original Baryta handy to look at right now). It is also stiffer due to increased thickness. But there's certainly no edge curl as it's too thick and stiff to curl. :) I had a 24" roll as my sample and had absolutely no problems printing it. But don't expect to print a 24x36 and have it miraculously uncurl and become flat, that's just not going to happen! 
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mearussi

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #12 on: June 12, 2018, 05:45:42 PM »

I would not describe the Harman by Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta as being a high gloss surface or look.  It is quite a unique surface though I haven't tested the Hahnemuhle replacement which may be similar.  The problem with the polyester "papers" that I have tested is that they have quite a bit of gloss differential with pigment inks.

Personally, I dislike the shimmery surface of the Baryta Prestige but I agree with most of your other characterizations of the paper.
There's no surface, whether glossy, luster or matte that doesn't involve trade offs of one sort or another. It really comes down to a matter of personal taste. For me the Prestige is the best compromise between high color saturation and minimal reflections, though you're right about the slightly odd surface. But the overall improvement in color and clarity was worth putting up with it.

The polyester "paper" I used was Ilford's which they no longer carried after they came back from bankruptcy, which I think is a shame as it's a really beautiful paper with the ultra smooth surface only polyester can have. I didn't notice any gloss differential, but then I also don't remember specifically looking for any. It was very thin, though, which I did not care for and the surface was rather delicate (not too surprising).
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John Caldwell

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #13 on: June 12, 2018, 05:53:57 PM »

There's no surface, whether glossy, luster or matte that doesn't involve trade offs of one sort or another. It really comes down to a matter of personal taste. For me the Prestige is the best compromise between high color saturation and minimal reflections, though you're right about the slightly odd surface. But the overall improvement in color and clarity was worth putting up with it.

The polyester "paper" I used was Ilford's which they no longer carried after they came back from bankruptcy, which I think is a shame as it's a really beautiful paper with the ultra smooth surface only polyester can have. I didn't notice any gloss differential, but then I also don't remember specifically looking for any. It was very thin, though, which I did not care for and the surface was rather delicate (not too surprising).


Thanks mearussi, will give a roll a try based on your comments.

John-
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deliberate1

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #14 on: June 12, 2018, 07:56:37 PM »

Is the OP discussing the Harman paper or the HFA Gloss Baryta?

OP here:https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1333048-REG/hahnem_hle_10643252_photo_gloss_baryta_320gsm.html
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John Caldwell

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #15 on: June 12, 2018, 07:58:28 PM »

Thatís what I thought. Some participants referenced the Harman material. They are not the same.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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MarkFarber

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2018, 12:52:22 PM »

I've loved the Harman by Hahnemuhle baryta but it has been the most challenging to feed.  I've used the 17x25 sheets on Epson3880 and Canon1000.  Even the sheets required flattening with my (hand-made, but there are also commercial) de-roller.  I've had to reverse-roll all four corners of these sheets to avoid head strikes even with high-head settings.  Your problem hasn't been head strikes but the cause may be similar.

So you could try cutting the rolls into sheets and de-rolling them.  Might improve the performance.
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deliberate1

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2018, 01:23:36 PM »

OP here. Appreciate all the replies. I have since burned through most of the 49' roll, with perhaps 5 feet of usable prints. Noting more frustrating than to see your work come alive and elegantly presented, only to have the surface marred by scratches. Maddening.
I am wondering if changing the paper thickness setting would help. In my Epson 7800 it is set at the standard 3mm. But I have since learned that the paper is 3.3mm. Since you cannot use fractions in the setting dialog, it would mean going to 4mm, which I will try. I also use the "wider" platen gap setting. Interesting that there is no "widest" option in the print driver, though I have seen it mentioned on line. Perhaps with other printers. In any event, I would appreciate any feedback regarding the potential effect of using a wider paper thickness setting. Basically a hail Mary pass at this point.
Thanks
David
PS: Mark, I did try flattening some roll stock, without effect. I have 13x19 cut sheets which do survive better - but still not perfect. I think the combination of paper thickness, stiffness and delicate surface are the hat trick.
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MarkFarber

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2018, 01:40:21 PM »

On the Eps3880, I use the "wider" platten gap, which as you say is the ill-named widest.  A couple of years ago, I also increased the paper thickness from 0.4mm to 0.5mm with better results, even though the paper is less than 0.4mm.
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deliberate1

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Re: Minimizing scratches on Hahnemuhle Gloss Baryta roll stock
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2018, 03:17:06 PM »

Mark,
Obliged for yours.
Epson's platen settings are a bit obscure. It is not obvious which creates the largest tolerance - "wider" or "wide." Surely, "wider" is wider than narrow or auto, but is it wider than "wide." I am not in front of my photo box. But I recall selecting the last of the platen gap settings, whether "wide" or "wider."
Interesting to know about the paper thickness adjustment. I will try 4mm, or even 5mm to see if it reduces scratches, without sacrificing quality. When you say that you got "better results," in what respect.
Thanks.
David
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