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Author Topic: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one  (Read 1286 times)

sjatll

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Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« on: June 01, 2018, 04:38:02 PM »

Bit of background - mostly shoot family/kids. Primarily, I use my Canon film/digital system (few L lens, and mix of film, aps-c and full frame bodies). All the digital work goes on a 4k LCD TV as a random slideshow that runs all day and the film (all slides) goes on a projector.

I started medium format photography with a Yashica Mat 12. Moved to a Hasselblad 503CW with couple of lens but found it extremely hard to adjust to life without meter or autofocus, given my subjects :) 

However, the Yashica and Hasselblad experience made me like the waist level finder a lot. Then, I tried the Pentax 645N system and while I gained metering/AF, I prefer 6x6 over 645 for projection/portraits and wlf over eye-level finder. In fact, one huge reason I prefer wlf over eye-level finder is that my kids either run away or run to me, the moment they see a camera near my eyes. With a wlf or flip up LCD, they are lot more at ease and don't seem to care that I am taking pictures. 

I briefly looked at the digital MF cameras - Pentax 645Z, Fuji GFX 50S and the Hasselblad - but I am not convinced the slightly larger sensor compared to the 35mm FF sensors are worth getting into a new system especially given that Fuji/Hasselblad MF mirrorless lens are so expensive.

Pretty much leaves me with either the Hy6 or the 6008AF. The Hy6 cannot do 6x6 film without the non-existent 6060 back and in terms of serviceability, with DHW gone, both Hy6 and 6008 probably are equally not so great in terms of repair/service, I guess?

So is the 6008AF still a reasonable bet? Looks like it can take a modern back like Phase IQ250 with a Hasselblad-V to Rollei adapter (if I can find one)? But I haven't seen anyone do that, on the forums.

Thoughts, ideas, suggestions? Thanks :)
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #1 on: June 01, 2018, 06:07:53 PM »

No modern Phase One back will work on a 6008.

Maybe you could consider an RZ with a full frame 645 Phase One back? Film compatible; big film format; works with a back in vertical or horizontal orientation; lots of very good but very inexpensive lenses. If you’re in the US we’d be glad to show that to you in our Phase One demo studios in NYC or LA or via a remote demo or rental (counted toward purchase).

sjatll

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #2 on: June 01, 2018, 06:28:45 PM »

No modern Phase One back will work on a 6008.

Maybe you could consider an RZ with a full frame 645 Phase One back? Film compatible; big film format; works with a back in vertical or horizontal orientation; lots of very good but very inexpensive lenses. If you’re in the US we’d be glad to show that to you in our Phase One demo studios in NYC or LA or via a remote demo or rental (counted toward purchase).

Thanks but I am primarily interested in 6x6 film. Digital compatibility will be a bonus. The RZ system has a nice lens line up but no metering and AF is a deal killer for me. As for 6x7 film, I am not sure if I can find glass mounts for it anymore. I did give 6x7 a look because I do have a Mamiya ProCabin projector that will take 6x7 slides.
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Gigi

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #3 on: June 02, 2018, 07:35:25 AM »

Two parts to this:

- does the Rollei system make sense at all, given what else is out there?
- within that system, is 6008AF the right choice?

Have used Rolleis since 1992. The system has a good deal of depth, in lenses and other additions (macro, viewfinders, film backs, etc.). The beauty of the lenses is that there is a choice of Schneider or Zeiss (the Schneiders are a bit more modern), built like tanks, leaf shutters. Mostly MF, but there are some AF lenses - 50, 80, 180 and a rare 150. Use of the 1.4TX on the 80 makes a nice 110. There is also a good manual confirmation built in, so that use of MF lenses is pretty easy. And the lenses were top in their time, probably showing a bit of CA at the edges. I use the 50AF as a good copy lens, with its minor barrel distortion easy to dial out.

That said, there are other systems more current. You'd have to make sure to update the batteries, not too hard to do. I think DW replaced DHW, so there is some service still out there. Eric at RolleiflexUSA was big into these, check with him.

The idea of 6008AF as a film based camera, with AF capabilities, makes some sense, but know what you are into. The AF is OK, not 35mm standards, but quite usable. For slower portraits, fine. Not sure about higher speed. The camera isn't small, its not too heavy with film. I used to travel light with a 6003, thinner back, and flip up viewfinder, and found it OK, especially with the removable handle. The Hy6 is a bit more modest in size, but the handle is awkward for travel, and as you say, the 6x6 backs are hard to find (although a rumor was they were going back into production?).

As to any digital backs, the 6008AF is limited to the rare DP20, a fat pixel Phase One back. The Hy6 has a few more modern backs that will work, the Leaf AFI series (5,7,10,12), and some of the Credos - the 60 is quite nice. Not easy to find, but not impossible. THe earlier AFI series integrated nicely with the Hy6, the Credos a bit less, but still quite usable.

In short, its a system that will work well with film, good lenses, wide range of options, not too expensive these days. Negatives are limited knowledge out there, service is a bit thin (but still around), limited digital pathway, and the lenses are sizeable and a bit heavy.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 02:45:11 PM by Gigi »
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Geoff

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2018, 03:36:06 AM »

Personally I don't think the Rollei is a good option going forward. Shame, they are nice cameras and lenses. You can put a Sinar back on it but it's getting really old now and serviceability becomes an issue on something you'll be spending a decent amount of money on.

If you want 6x6 film then Hasselblad and CFV-50c is a worthwhile and viable option and the price is very reasonable for what you are getting. It's easy and fully contained, you don't have to mess about cables and shoot it pretty much like a film camera. Obviously, you then have 6x6 and 645 film back too. It's a proper hybrid system.

You can use a Phase One back but for what you are talking about using it (more of an every day camera?) it's more annoying because you have to mess about with cables and they suck.
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #5 on: June 04, 2018, 10:19:38 AM »

Personally I don't think the Rollei is a good option going forward. Shame, they are nice cameras and lenses. You can put a Sinar back on it but it's getting really old now and serviceability becomes an issue on something you'll be spending a decent amount of money on.

If you want 6x6 film then Hasselblad and CFV-50c is a worthwhile and viable option and the price is very reasonable for what you are getting. It's easy and fully contained, you don't have to mess about cables and shoot it pretty much like a film camera. Obviously, you then have 6x6 and 645 film back too. It's a proper hybrid system.

You can use a Phase One back but for what you are talking about using it (more of an every day camera?) it's more annoying because you have to mess about with cables and they suck.


For someone considering 6x6 film/digital, a Phase One + Hasselblad 5 Series has some positives that a CFV-50c lacks. While you do have a single sync cable to lens, you can also re-orient the Phase One digital back from horizontal to vertical, which you cannot do with a CFV-50c. And as the OP mentioned shooting waist level, this becomes impossible for hand held, vertically oriented shots with a CFV-50c.

As an added bonus, the usability of the IQ series is superior for field use (much higher rez LCD, far superior UI).

However, a Hasselblad 5 series lacks auto focus, which leaves your waist level finder, auto focus, 6x6 film shooting desires in a pretty bleak place, unfortunately.


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Joe Towner

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #6 on: June 04, 2018, 12:13:08 PM »

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish is possible using equipment that is readily available on the used market.  The Hasselblad V + Phase back is kind of close, and the best bet in terms of an investment based on your square requirements - lots of V gear out there, IQ backs available, rotatable and will be serviced for a long time.

The big question is if you can crop your view to 45x45 or not - as in can you mask off the sides of a 645 view and work with it?  Hasselblad has a waist level finder, but you lose the meter (it's in the 90deg finder) but there is a mashup of options on the backs & bodies - H1/2 with a Phase & film back, H3D/H4D plus H1/2 for film, H5X/H6 with Hass digital & film backs.  The Contax 645 can do both film and digital with a waist level finder (not sure about the light meter location) but is old enough and the back would be more expensive than any other mount.

Phase really should do us a favor and make a film back for the XF....  Big upside is the XF meter is in the body, unlike the Hass. 

The difference between the 50mp 33x44 and 35mm FF is there, but is more noticeable in the 36x48 backs - 39/50/60mp, etc.  But since they are CCD's you're back to shooting at ISO 50/100 mostly.

-Joe
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sjatll

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #7 on: June 04, 2018, 08:09:15 PM »

Two parts to this:

- does the Rollei system make sense at all, given what else is out there?
- within that system, is 6008AF the right choice?

Have used Rolleis since 1992. The system has a good deal of depth, in lenses and other additions (macro, viewfinders, film backs, etc.). The beauty of the lenses is that there is a choice of Schneider or Zeiss (the Schneiders are a bit more modern), built like tanks, leaf shutters. Mostly MF, but there are some AF lenses - 50, 80, 180 and a rare 150. Use of the 1.4TX on the 80 makes a nice 110. There is also a good manual confirmation built in, so that use of MF lenses is pretty easy. And the lenses were top in their time, probably showing a bit of CA at the edges. I use the 50AF as a good copy lens, with its minor barrel distortion easy to dial out.

That said, there are other systems more current. You'd have to make sure to update the batteries, not too hard to do. I think DW replaced DHW, so there is some service still out there. Eric at RolleiflexUSA was big into these, check with him.

Yep, I looked around. Other than the Mamiya, Contax and Pentax AF bodies and the Fuji GA645 rangefinders - I don't think there are any AF/AE bodies. Leaves us with 6008AF and the Hy6 variants. Of the two, I'd rather shoot 6x6 because if I am dealing with the bulk/costs, then why leave the real estate of the table? That said, it is nice that the Hy6 backs can be rotated for portraits.

Quote
The idea of 6008AF as a film based camera, with AF capabilities, makes some sense, but know what you are into. The AF is OK, not 35mm standards, but quite usable. For slower portraits, fine. Not sure about higher speed. The camera isn't small, its not too heavy with film. I used to travel light with a 6003, thinner back, and flip up viewfinder, and found it OK, especially with the removable handle. The Hy6 is a bit more modest in size, but the handle is awkward for travel, and as you say, the 6x6 backs are hard to find (although a rumor was they were going back into production?).

I have been shooting with a Pentax 645NII so yes, I do understand that AF isn't quite like my modern Canon AF bodies :) On the weight, the Pentax weighs as much as the Hy6 and the 6008AF weighs couple of hundreds grams more.

Quote
As to any digital backs, the 6008AF is limited to the rare DP20, a fat pixel Phase One back. The Hy6 has a few more modern backs that will work, the Leaf AFI series (5,7,10,12), and some of the Credos - the 60 is quite nice. Not easy to find, but not impossible. THe earlier AFI series integrated nicely with the Hy6, the Credos a bit less, but still quite usable.
Digital backs would be nice but only if the back has the newer sensor that goes in the H5d-50c. Primarily, so when film is too slow, I can switch to digital and use the high ISO capabilities. However, that isn't possible with the older CCD based backs, I believe.

Quote
In short, its a system that will work well with film, good lenses, wide range of options, not too expensive these days. Negatives are limited knowledge out there, service is a bit thin (but still around), limited digital pathway, and the lenses are sizeable and a bit heavy.
Fortunately, 6x6/6x4.5 film is working out fine in terms of getting them developed. I use slide film for colour and for BW work, I send the film to DR5 labs. Like I said before, I use MF projectors to view my work so I am happy with slides. When I need, I scan the slides I want to put in my digital collection and slideshow.
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sjatll

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #8 on: June 04, 2018, 08:17:32 PM »

Personally I don't think the Rollei is a good option going forward. Shame, they are nice cameras and lenses. You can put a Sinar back on it but it's getting really old now and serviceability becomes an issue on something you'll be spending a decent amount of money on.

If you want 6x6 film then Hasselblad and CFV-50c is a worthwhile and viable option and the price is very reasonable for what you are getting. It's easy and fully contained, you don't have to mess about cables and shoot it pretty much like a film camera. Obviously, you then have 6x6 and 645 film back too. It's a proper hybrid system.

You can use a Phase One back but for what you are talking about using it (more of an every day camera?) it's more annoying because you have to mess about with cables and they suck.

I realize the Hasselblad 5xx is a great series but I used a 503CW for a few months and mostly ended up frustrated for lack of AE and also AF. It is fine when I am on the street, I can use sunny 16 rule to judge metering but indoors with kids, I'd rather have my teeth pulled. I've had better luck using my Yashica Mat's built-in old meter rather than using a handheld meter with the Hassy 503CW. By the time, I meter, the subject has moved, leaving me to quickly guess the change in exposure which turns out to be very often wrong. Actually, I am surprised the Yashica Mat's built in meter works so well.

Shooting with a Pentax 645NII showed me that some patience and AF/AE built in, it is feasible to shoot kids indoors with a MF body. Again, coming from Canon 35mm bodies and set of their fastest lens (50/1.2, 85/1.2, 24/1.4, 35/1.4, 135/2), the MF lens I have on Pentax are much slower but like I said, with AF/AE I can make do. Without those, my skills aren't good enough to use MF gear indoors with kids :D

I did enjoy the build and ergonomics of the Hassy though but in the end, I let it go.
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sjatll

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #9 on: June 04, 2018, 08:23:51 PM »

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish is possible using equipment that is readily available on the used market. 

As I said in my initial post:
- Shoot kids, indoors/outdoors
- Use 6x6 film
- project slides
- must be waist level finder
- must have AE/AF

Quote
The Hasselblad V + Phase back is kind of close, and the best bet in terms of an investment based on your square requirements - lots of V gear out there, IQ backs available, rotatable and will be serviced for a long time.

The big question is if you can crop your view to 45x45 or not - as in can you mask off the sides of a 645 view and work with it?  Hasselblad has a waist level finder, but you lose the meter (it's in the 90deg finder) but there is a mashup of options on the backs & bodies - H1/2 with a Phase & film back, H3D/H4D plus H1/2 for film, H5X/H6 with Hass digital & film backs.  The Contax 645 can do both film and digital with a waist level finder (not sure about the light meter location) but is old enough and the back would be more expensive than any other mount.

I tried the 45-degree Hasselblad finder with meter - most unpleasant - you gain a ton of weight and the whole workflow of is still as cumbersome as using an external meter. Didn't work for me.

Quote
The difference between the 50mp 33x44 and 35mm FF is there, but is more noticeable in the 36x48 backs - 39/50/60mp, etc.  But since they are CCD's you're back to shooting at ISO 50/100 mostly.

-Joe

Yes, to me, the advantage of digital is to dial up ISO and shoot when film is too slow. But if I am going to shoot 50/100 then I'd rather shoot film and scan as needed. Cheaper/lighter :)
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EricWHiss

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2018, 02:33:20 AM »

I've used almost all digital backs for the 6008 bodies possible and also on the Hy6. If you have questions feel free to reach out to me off list. Phase never got into the universal back with adapter plates like Sinar and Imacon/Hasselblad so they don't have the same level of integration when fit to other cameras.   But the Hasselblad backs for 6008 were very good.  You can still turn up the CF-39 and CF-39MS backs on the second hand market and if you can find the Hasseblad to Rollei 6008AF adapter plate it could be a good choice.  That configuration made a really nice file and the one I just had (and sold) recently had been serviced by B23 and really made a very nice file.  I think Jimmy of B23 can work magic on those backs because that CF-39MS produced a completely useable ISO 800 file - as clean as my Credo 60 does for sure - and I don't remember my old CF-39 being that good.    So its still  possible for you to get a working film & digital 6008AF setup.  The Hy6 Mod2 is still being produced and while you're right that the 6060 film backs have been hard to get ahold of, they are available.  I have two in hand right now new and one used (as part of kits).    There were a lot more digital backs sold in the Hy6/AFi Mount so you'd likely have a better chance of finding one on the 2nd hand market.  But a film + digital solution with the Hy6 Mod2 will be more expensive.   I had thought that a new Credo 80 could still be ordered, but I understood Steve Hendrix correctly that a new Credo 80 can only be supplied in Hy6 mount now when someone trades one in.   
   
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Rob C

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2018, 08:26:05 AM »

I've never used a digital back on a 500 'blad, but did use a couple of the cameras - along with Nikon - to earn my keep.

Two things instantly come to mind:

a. using a waist-level finder at waist level was a nonsense unless you wanted to work stopped down as far as the thing would go for whatever DOF you could screw out of the lenses. Unless, of course, waist-level, for you, includes a tripod;

b. those 500 Series bodies had amazing mirror bounce, and for me, unless used with a tripod and over about 1/250th weren't going to give you sharp. If you wanted that, go TLR: Rolleiflex were great... the 500s were fantastic in the studio with flash.

Rob

Steve Hendrix

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2018, 12:29:18 PM »

I've used almost all digital backs for the 6008 bodies possible and also on the Hy6. If you have questions feel free to reach out to me off list. Phase never got into the universal back with adapter plates like Sinar and Imacon/Hasselblad so they don't have the same level of integration when fit to other cameras.   But the Hasselblad backs for 6008 were very good.  You can still turn up the CF-39 and CF-39MS backs on the second hand market and if you can find the Hasseblad to Rollei 6008AF adapter plate it could be a good choice.  That configuration made a really nice file and the one I just had (and sold) recently had been serviced by B23 and really made a very nice file.  I think Jimmy of B23 can work magic on those backs because that CF-39MS produced a completely useable ISO 800 file - as clean as my Credo 60 does for sure - and I don't remember my old CF-39 being that good.    So its still  possible for you to get a working film & digital 6008AF setup.  The Hy6 Mod2 is still being produced and while you're right that the 6060 film backs have been hard to get ahold of, they are available.  I have two in hand right now new and one used (as part of kits).    There were a lot more digital backs sold in the Hy6/AFi Mount so you'd likely have a better chance of finding one on the 2nd hand market.  But a film + digital solution with the Hy6 Mod2 will be more expensive.   I had thought that a new Credo 80 could still be ordered, but I understood Steve Hendrix correctly that a new Credo 80 can only be supplied in Hy6 mount now when someone trades one in.   
 


Very useful input Eric, thank you.

I would just clarify by saying that whether ordering new or via upgrade, that you should ask to see if a HY6 compatible Credo is available, it may not be, but ... it might be. I wouldn't know until the time of order as I would be checking with Phase One to see if they had one available in their inventory. If they don't then it could be a very long wait.


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landscapephoto

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2018, 12:51:20 PM »

As I said in my initial post:
- Shoot kids, indoors/outdoors
- Use 6x6 film
- project slides
- must be waist level finder
- must have AE/AF

With these 3 criteria, you have already narrowed your search to one camera. I don't see why this thread is going on. ;)
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Rob C

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2018, 01:17:09 PM »

With these 3 criteria, you have already narrowed your search to one camera. I don't see why this thread is going on. ;)


Some of us have nothing more pressing to do.

donbga

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2018, 01:39:00 PM »

Consider if you will a Mamiya 7 II. With a full compliment of  primes since zooms aren't available for this camera. You can purchase NOS from Japan though not inexpensive.

For film, put your digital camera on the ground and step away from the waist level finders. Otherwise consider a Rollei 6x6.

The Mamiya C330S's are also feasible though not exactly light. For B&W film, your eye can serve as your best light meter or use a Luna Pro or Sekonic.

Nothing to it after a few rolls under your belt.

Seriously, trying to meld digital with film bodies IMO is not your path to nirvana.

However, you may find this article informative since I think this is the track you have started on:

https://goo.gl/gSgZ3Z

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landscapephoto

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2018, 05:56:09 PM »

Some of us have nothing more pressing to do.

Maybe. What I meant is that waist level finder and automatic exposure are very rarely found together. The problem is that the huge opening from the waist level finder lets light in and that interferes with light measurements in the camera. Workarounds are possible, but have only be implemented in a few cameras. I think that Rollei was the first to find one of these workarounds, actually.

Once you add 6x6 film and AF, the search is narrowed down to the 2 the O.P. found, where the 6008 is probably the only practical option. The film back for the Hy6 costs collectors' prices, if you can find one. Actually, you can: there is one for 3000$ on ebay right now.
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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #17 on: June 07, 2018, 03:28:30 PM »

i had the 6008AF P20 kit for a while, not sure if i had any other backs with it....really liked the camera, very few backs actually integrated with it well....loved the schneider lenses but all in all probably the camera that failed most often in the few years i owned it....never a god thing if you end up with the repair guy on speed dial.....this was towards the end of rolleiflex, the HY6 would have been the next step, but just too niche for me.....either way, AF is not what anyone would consider workable who has ever worked with any dslr (including first gen) if you are shooting anything that moves, the system is MF.....
somebody mentioned the RZ with a full frame back....i used to have the RZ with P40 (which is not anywhere near full frame) and it is overall a better solution then the rolleiflex....although the lenses aren't that good and it is much bigger and heavier.....
if you need a DMF waist level AF system , the GFX with the tilt adapter is a great solution.....
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Peter Devos

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #18 on: June 10, 2018, 10:30:51 AM »

I do sometimes stil use a 528c Imacon back on my 6003 and 6008 body. Lenses are unmatched in quality. no other camera handles multishot as nice as the rollei 600x and Hy6 series :-)
As Eric also stated, the Hasselblad/Imacon 528 and CF22/CF39 backs were great backs and do still produce magnificient files.
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Bo_Dez

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Re: Rollei 6008 AF - make sense to buy one
« Reply #19 on: June 10, 2018, 11:39:26 AM »

Hasselblad 203 or 205 has Metering with the WLF, 6x6 and 645 film, and digital option too.
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