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Author Topic: Power Users: MAC or PC?  (Read 5866 times)

Brad P

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #60 on: June 17, 2018, 10:18:59 PM »

Thanks for the link Phil - I spend a lot of time looking for files (particularly right now figuring out what to migrate) and that looks like it will help in the future.  Fortunately for a few years I won't be able to mess up the new drive too badly.
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smahn

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #61 on: July 25, 2018, 01:32:40 PM »

Here are the geekbench scores. Now to check out those other links to see how it compares. I probably will run it against my souped up nearly to the max early 2009 Mac Pro just to see the difference.

Single Core: 5,102
Multi Core: 28,548
OpenCL score: 148,546

The real proof of the pudding will be later today after I migrate some old pics and use PS & Zerene Stacker.  Iíll wait to see how that looks before deliving into over clocking.  It is over clock ready. 

And yeah, I will someday add more storage and mirror the drives using that Windows mirroring capability that Iím forgetting the name of. B

Brad, how'd the whole Migration thing go for you? I got flummoxed and gave up. As a lifelong Mac user I could never get my mind around the Control key (Command on a Mac) - the most used modifier key - being all the way on the far side of the keyboard. Simple moves on the Mac keyboard, like CMD+T for transform, were a tedious stretch for me on the PC keyboard. (Such a stupid little thing, but at 58 and lazy, I'm old enough it's hard for me to learn new tricks.)

So I bought into the Mac system for another round that I hope will get me through the next 3-5 years before I consider again. My i9, 32GB ram, 2T nvme, Macbook Pro gets about 5500 Single Core and 22500 Multi, which matched or beat out the two relatively substantial i7 6-core gaming PC desktops I tried. (Though it think their beefier graphics cards trounced the MBP's relatively meager 62,000 OpenCL score.)

The beauty for me is it's portable, so it'll be my mobile and desktop solution, don't have to sync my Lightroom cat & library between 2 computers, migration was a breeze, and I don't have to remap my muscle memory.

« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 01:38:24 PM by smahn »
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Brad P

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #62 on: July 25, 2018, 03:13:41 PM »

All in all Iím quite happy with the PC.  The biggest hurdle wasnít designing or building it.  Not even close.  The biggest hurdle has been the amount of time I spent migrating everything cross platform, setting up all the presets, setting up color management, reinstalling my large format printer and learning an entirely new directory structure.  Even after all this time I feel only 95% migrated and 5% confused about where everything is.  There is something to be said with sticking with the same platform. 

I continue to be surprised that I havenít had to buy much software at all. I did have to buy QImage and antivirus software, but thatís about it.  Everything else nowadays can be reinstalled in a Windows version. It all operates pretty much the same, but some programs take some getting used to as well.  Once configured properly, most programs operate about the same though with very little differences.  Resetting up color management took some time. 

The control key doesnít bother me so much, probably since Iíve used PCs in the distant past, although it did take some getting used to.  I edit with an old Logitech Trackman Trackball, and that behaves differently - a bit less precise firmware it seems for the PC.  Thatís my biggest annoyance and might finally prompt me to find a substitute thumb-driven mouse or *gasp* try a Wacom again. 

Still Iíd do it again because of the cost issues for about the same performance, and the future proofing.  Iíll get over the 5% confusion in time.  If Mac hadnít walked away from their open architecture in the Pre Trash Can days I might feel differently.  But as it is, my machine is very upgradeable and will last quite a while.  And best of all, I donít feel like Iím waiting for the computer to process things anymore.
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nemophoto

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #63 on: July 25, 2018, 03:37:56 PM »

It's interesting to hear your tale of Mac to PC migration. There's heated discussion going on at Extreme Tech regarding similar things. I find the hottest heads are usually Mac users who don't actually have ANY experience on a PC -- only what they think they know or have read. (In the fashion biz, I call these types the alligators-in-the-sewer. All they know of the world is what they see through the sewer grates, the feet walking by.) Because my wife has a Mac, I use both systems ambidextrously -- but I prefer PCs. And I infinitely prefer PCs for the upgradeability. (See my post on the hoops I'm going through just to even change the graphics card on my wife's Mac. Additionally upgrades are limited by the PSU. I can't just pop something bigger in her Mac 5,1. Yes something to be said about Open Architecture. But that is, traditionally, where Apple has made its money -- as a hardware company. OS X comes along for the ride.)

Brad P

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #64 on: July 25, 2018, 04:06:38 PM »

Yeah Iíd agree with that.  A bit like religion and politics.  One more thing in favor of PCs and their open architecture is the ability to tailor the machine to the jobs at hand.  For my purposes, I could shift money around from processor cores to the graphics card and internal storage, where that benefits my particular workflow. 

Rumors are the next Mac Pro (next calendar year) will go back to a more open architecture design, which would be a good thing.  I couldnít wait for that with my older system.  But some might.  Even then though, my experience with my old 2009 Mac Pro was that it could only be updated only to a point.  Anything beyond what was supported by the operating system (like, famously, graphics cards) couldnít be upgraded without major hacks that could behave unpredictably.  That cuts both ways.  What the Mac OS does support it does very well.  But what it doesnít has meant in my experience hardware limitations. I suspect that dynamic will continue in an open architecture future Mac Pro too.  Time will tell. 
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smahn

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #65 on: July 25, 2018, 05:08:30 PM »

All in all Iím quite happy with the PC.  The biggest hurdle wasnít designing or building it.  Not even close.  The biggest hurdle has been the amount of time I spent migrating everything cross platform, setting up all the presets, setting up color management, reinstalling my large format printer and learning an entirely new directory structure.

Great to hear you're happy.

It was that whole Migration part I struggled with.
My PC gamer son razzes me about the "Mac tax" I paid. But as a freelancer, that's money I can and do make in a day, compared to the days and weeks it'd have taken me to migrate allm those programs, presets, passwords, etc, and then to adjust. By staying on the same platform the migration takes a couple of hours. So that's a luxury I was happy to pay for.

Anyway, like you my files are processing much faster now. That's a fight worth fighting for, however one gets there.
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nemophoto

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #66 on: July 25, 2018, 05:40:41 PM »

...compared to the days and weeks it'd have taken me to migrate allm those programs, presets, passwords, etc, and then to adjust. By staying on the same platform the migration takes a couple of hours. So that's a luxury I was happy to pay for.

Good point. This is the ONE area where I'm somewhat envious of my wife, the few times she bought a new Mac. The ease of transfer is NEVER something to overlook. I've tried several different programs over the years (such as PCMover), and have never had a lot of success. SOME stuff gets transferred over well (luckily Outlook, documents, etc.), but almost always I have to go through a reinstall of most programs. Pain in the butt. I'm going to a new laptop shortly. I don't relish the transfer of programs, but luckily, I don't have anywhere near as much on that as my desktop. Still, the ability to change components within my computer over an average of 4-years enables me to keep it in peak performance.

smahn

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2018, 05:49:38 PM »

Can't you do a disk image and bring EVERYTHING over, similar to cloning on a Mac?
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nemophoto

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #68 on: July 25, 2018, 09:43:28 PM »

Actually, you can. PCMover does that, but I've used other software that seems better equipped. With configuration changes, what is tricky is if you go from, for example, and AMD motherboard to an Intel motherboard. Or even staying within the brand, a new generation of board (as I have usually done going with AMD). The problem is that different drivers are required with new generation hardware. Some are contained within Windows. Others have to be loaded from driver downloads or disks. I'm not sure what I'll do with my notebook, for instance. I'm going from a 4-year old laptop to a new one -- 4 generations different Intel CPU. In that case, it may be easier from scratch. But I have so many bloody programs on my desktop, it's a nightmare. That's what I've always appreciate the Apple upgrade. They make it easier. Microsoft can only go so far -- the downside of Open Architecture is that, well, it's open, so you have a lot of variables. The disk image works best when you are using it as a recent backup rather than a huge upgrade. For instance, as I type this, I'm creating a new clone/disk image on my wife's Mac to switch her from an HDD to an SSD.

smahn

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #69 on: July 25, 2018, 11:14:05 PM »

Makes sense, thanks for the explanation.
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kers

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #70 on: July 26, 2018, 04:45:20 AM »

I am in the process of having a Hackintosh built.
It will replace my good old 2008 Mac pro. For me it is something new to do and i do not exactly know what the problems are i will face.
But i just like the OSX system so much - and knowmit so well that i wanted to try. I can always turn it in a windows if it fails.
The nice thing is now that i can buy the mac i really want. Never had that before and it is very nice to do it.
Also i can overclock the CPU; I expect to gain overall a factor 4 in speed and a more smooth working experience with Lightroom par example.
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smahn

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #71 on: July 26, 2018, 12:18:27 PM »

I am in the process of having a Hackintosh built.

I'd love to hear more about this. Is this being done by a pro outfitter with experience, do they offer any sort of guarantee? Any predicted pitfalls like audio, wifi, etc?

I wonder if we're headed toward the end of the Hackintosh era as Apple moves toward more use of their own chips.
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kers

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #72 on: July 26, 2018, 05:57:17 PM »

I'd love to hear more about this. Is this being done by a pro outfitter with experience, do they offer any sort of guarantee? Any predicted pitfalls like audio, wifi, etc?
I wonder if we're headed toward the end of the Hackintosh era as Apple moves toward more use of their own chips.
Think you are right, this T2-chip will be in the way for future Hackintosh... and already now for restoring your machine in a easy way.
That said they still have to support the T2-less models another 6 years or so.
Personally i do not want any t2... in my machine, i want to restore it in a simple way, but with a hackintosh there is no garantee.
I will have to stick with 13.6 for a while but that is OK. I always install the latest versions of a system - the most stable ones...
I come from 10.9.5 and do not need the new gadgets, but a fast working solution for photoshop, finalcut pro etc.
I can expand it later with new processors, new M.2 memory and new ram if i like and without any Apple bonus.
It is all because apple refuses to built a decent mac pro...- last serious machine dates back from 2010.

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kers

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #73 on: September 13, 2018, 11:16:57 AM »

I'd love to hear more about this. Is this being done by a pro outfitter with experience, do they offer any sort of guarantee? Any predicted pitfalls like audio, wifi, etc?
I wonder if we're headed toward the end of the Hackintosh era as Apple moves toward more use of their own chips.

Update:
I have a hackintosh up and running... i write this post on it...
Although i have not explored everything yet...
This is what  i have :

cpu  10 core i7900 overclocked at 4.5 HZ  with watercooling - does  about 35 nefs 36Mp/ minute in LR to 16 bit tiff
2Tb samsung EVO 700  - does 2500MB/sec read and write( blackmagic speed test) ( for my ongoing work)
one windows and one apple systemdisk on two crucial SSD's
a midrange graphic card  amd 480RX  8TB ( is about the same as a 580 RX)
Thunderbolt3 card- 2 slots
firewire 800 and 400 card
dvd/cd writer
space for about 6  600 sata harddisks -
6 usb2.0  two USB3  4 usb 3.1 gen1 and 4 usb 3.1 gen2
32gig ram (3000gb/s) and room for 96 more.
still room another two pci cards and one nvme SSD.

the system is about as fast as a imacpro 14 core, but the graphic card is less- also i do not have 10GB ethernet - i have 2 gigabyte slots.

the system is very silent- about 4x as fast as my old system and uses about 40% less energy.
geekbench about 5000 one core and 42000 10 core
cinebench 140frames rx480  and 2400 CPU

costs, about 4000€ so a lot cheaper than an imac pro + the NAS.
a new + retro machine - something apple will never built.

PS i choose the corei9-7900 for it was according to several sources the fastest for photoshop/LR - a compromise between core speed and multicores

it was very nice to be able to choose  my own computer according to my needs. A process i did not know very well being a mac user.
Macosx 13.6 runs great on it.
If Apple would have made a new sensible Macpro in 2018 i would have not taken this road; but maybe that is a good thing...

yes it is done by an outfitter with a decade experience- i did not want to spend time on all these little knowhows...
garantee... it is his personal garantee... i had a problem with the GPU and he replaced it . now everything works fine.
so yes there is a risk.

so i am Mac + PC now.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2018, 09:07:18 AM by kers »
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JaapD

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #74 on: September 18, 2018, 06:35:35 AM »

Hi Pieter,

Looks indeed like a great system. Apart from the video card it could be a benchmark for Apple's next Mac Pro.

Can you tell me what motherboard you've chosen here?

Thanks!

Regards,
Jaap.
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langier

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #75 on: September 18, 2018, 04:12:07 PM »

Bought my MacPro tower in 2010, second-hand, and have kept it up to date though hardware and software updates. First updates were installing a 1.5GB striped RAID and a TimeMachine backup. Next was to add 32GB of RAM and then upgraded the start-up drive to SSD first 580GB now 960GB. I added eSata and USB 3.x ports for faster external drives (I have a multi-TB "farm" under the desk). Next was replacing the GT-120 to a Radeon HD 7950 with more VRAM and more up to date GPU. A few months back, I flashed the ROM from 4,1 to 5,1 and upgraded the Nehalem from 4-core 2.66 GHz to a 6-core 3.46 GHz. Found the chip and instructions on eBay and it was an easy process. In all reality, every hardware upgrade was easy to do as was replacing the power supply a few years back. Just make sure it's not a windy day that you've pet your cat and you've belted down a couple of brews before starting! :-P

Little by little I did all these upgrades and now it's about as tweaked as I can do the hardware. It works well and its speed is snappy. I've encountered no issues in this approach since I got this machine over eight years ago.

This year, several software companies warned that El Capitan wasn't going to hack it for their next releases with Adobe jumping on the same bandwagon a few weeks back.

So last week, I did my initial testing by updating a back-up drive and installed High Sierra while it was still available from the Apple Store. Initial testing with critical software (Microsoft's 2008 suite) my back-up legacy Adobe CS software (perpetual license) along with more mundane software and utilities, all came through working just fine in the few hours I took to do it all. Perhaps an iteration will brick something, but for now, it looks good to do the upgrade. Even my printers and wifi worked perfectly.

Though I had many trepidations over upgrading my old 2009 Mac to High Sierra, it appears that this may be one of the smoothest OS upgrades I've had to do without the "tax" of having to upgrade lots of software, reinstall drivers or other annoying hassles of upgrade hell.

Yesterday, the MBP got High Sierra upgrading from El Capitan and it's going great. Soon this antique machine will get the same treatment and I'll be good for another few years. Maybe by then the next killer workstation will be out for a couple of years and someone constantly upgrading his machine to the bleeding edge will be ready to dump their fairly new and slightly used machine perfectly good for my next decade of work.
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Larry Angier
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kers

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #76 on: September 18, 2018, 06:43:31 PM »

...So last week, I did my initial testing by updating a back-up drive and installed High Sierra while it was still available from the Apple Store. Initial testing with critical software (Microsoft's 2008 suite) my back-up legacy Adobe CS software (perpetual license) along with more mundane software and utilities, all came through working just fine in the few hours I took to do it all. Perhaps an iteration will brick something, but for now, it looks good to do the upgrade. Even my printers and wifi worked perfectly.
...
I had upgraded my 2008 Macpro to sierra/ High Sierra  and to my surprise photoshop CS6 worked great, but..

Sierra had a problem with actions - if an action took more than 5 minutes the action stopped..
High Sierra stopped the action too but after 10 minutes...
As you can imagine it took a while to discover the problem... i already had migrated the whole lot and my custom settings and then this happened.
I can imagine that somebody at Adobe could fix this problem in that same 5-10 minutes, but they are not interested....;)
my major migrating problem is mail.
Somehow with every new operating system Apple needs to change Mail and its structure ; it makes migrating less easy.
Now i export/import my boxes manually.

PS my motherboard is called ASUS  x299 deluxe.
Must say i have no thnderbolt3 equipment so need to test that...
As i unnderstand the reason thunderbolt3 supports screens is only that i provides the contacts for the screen- it has a contact ( wire) from the GPU to provide the data.
I admire Apples design for i have a lot of wires going from one place to another... Apple would feel ashamed if there MacPro would be like that.
(but it is all in the box- the box is a fractal design R6)




« Last Edit: September 18, 2018, 06:52:18 PM by kers »
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langier

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #77 on: September 18, 2018, 09:25:00 PM »

No issues with my email  & my few Photoshop actions work just fine. Most execute in seconds, nothing too complex in my collection. Upgraded to 10.13.6 also got me to go through my utilities and apps to weed out and archive the obsolete, update some of the less frequent apps I use and confirm that what old apps I still use, still work.

There were some that looked fine (no "prohibited" icon overlays) but simply did nothing after launching. Most I hadn't used in years, so it was time to clean out the folder.
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Larry Angier
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kers

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Re: Power Users: MAC or PC?
« Reply #78 on: September 19, 2018, 05:46:40 AM »

No issues with my email  & my few Photoshop actions work just fine. Most execute in seconds, nothing too complex in my collection. Upgraded to 10.13.6 also got me to go through my utilities and apps to weed out and archive the obsolete, update some of the less frequent apps I use and confirm that what old apps I still use, still work.

There were some that looked fine (no "prohibited" icon overlays) but simply did nothing after launching. Most I hadn't used in years, so it was time to clean out the folder.

Sounds good.  8-10 years of service from Apple is not too bad...
I had more problems because of a 2008 machine...
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