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Author Topic: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?  (Read 11693 times)

eronald

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #60 on: July 21, 2018, 05:37:24 pm »

its not overblown since the issue definitely is there, that does not mean that a lot of people might only shoot situations where it is no problem at all....for others it might be the opposite....
i personally have had issue using the e shutter even with sonys and had problems there, i have tried it on my GFX and it does not make any sense for me to use it....
if anyone really wants to shoot with 3rd party lenses, the GFX probably makes more sense but it is good to have the option anyway....

a friend of mine was just asked to shoot a celebrity editorial for a high end european fashion magazine and they asked him to shoot film as well as polaroids.....he obviously shot digital as well....all the hip kids (who did not grow up shooting film) are shooting film now, i think its great, i can do it as well but i know why i prefer digital....

to me the discussion about shooting film ends when scanning gets involved....makes zero sense to me at that point.....i can totally understand an analog master print from negative....

a digital print from a scanned negative is a little bit like using all the new turntables which come with direct USB out to rip records....i get buying vinyl and the process of listening....but it just makes me wonder how many people just play the record once (what a pain to flip it over!) and from that moment on listen on their iPhones anyway......

once one takes all things involved with 4x5 or 8x10 capture, analog printing (or high end scanning) and the price into consideration, even the highest end digital capture device seems reasonable if the only concern is quality and detail....
if it is all about the process, then why does it matter if film out resolves digital?

The e-shutter is an interesting development - if 1 stop of DR were sacrificed for a global shutter, with the short flange distances possible with mirrorless, one could make an MF camera *today* that could use any existing lens without a shutter in a lot of lighting conditions, including possibly strobe. I think a lot of people would be happy with fast strobe without the constraints of a leaf shutter.

Speaking less theoretically, I think a lot of pros don't benefit from the current eshutter, but a visit to the hasselblad forum shows many X1D buyers are using it quite happily, handheld.

Edmund


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pschefz

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #61 on: July 21, 2018, 05:56:37 pm »

The e-shutter is an interesting development - if 1 stop of DR were sacrificed for a global shutter, with the short flange distances possible with mirrorless, one could make an MF camera *today* that could use any existing lens without a shutter in a lot of lighting conditions, including possibly strobe. I think a lot of people would be happy with fast strobe without the constraints of a leaf shutter.

Speaking less theoretically, I think a lot of pros don't benefit from the current eshutter, but a visit to the hasselblad forum shows many X1D buyers are using it quite happily, handheld.

Edmund
the e shutter is a funny thing.....i used it all the time with my sony...until i found a couple of strangely shaped heads in one shoot.....a few shots out of maybe 1000.....but that is the point, i have no clue how many times that happened and i just did not notice it because i did not hold a ruler up to a shape (or head) and this was with the sony....
i guess as long as nobody notices or complains or as long as the slightly incorrect rendition of a shape falls under artistic license, there is no problem.....

Edmund
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BobShaw

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #62 on: July 21, 2018, 08:02:22 pm »

Chris is in architecture photography as main profession, as far as I know. In that business shift lenses are needed. Chris is using a technical camera. So, a leaf shutter doesn't help him as the lenses he needs are not available for Hasselblad. Flash will not work with E-shutter.
Fair enough. Architecture is pretty specialised though. Certainly not 90% of professional uses.
With a technical camera I would not recommend any "camera" be attached.
I had a 4x5 camera using film and thought that it would be great to use my Canon DSLR with it. It was  complete fail. It becomes a case of a lot more than resolution. The physics just don't work.

My first attempt at attaching a Canon DSLR to an adaptor plate and then mounting it on the back of the 4x5 camera showed that the camera sensor was now 75mm behind where it was before, so my minimum focal length was now much longer at around 120mm and my effective sensor size was much smaller. Wide angle was non existent. (Obviously mirrorless would be not so bad.)

That was one of the reasons to get a medium format system so that I could use the back only and have the sensor at the same plane as the film was located.
Using rough maths, this is what happens.
You have say a 200mm focal length lens with film that is say 100mm wide to produce an image. You replace the film back with a medium format back that is only 50mm wide. You have lost all of your wide angle so you need a much wider lens of say 100mm focal length. That may work OK because you still have at least 100mm between the sensor plane and the lens centre. However it is still not very wide.

I tried various things with a Cambo Wide DS which would require a huge investment of lenses before deciding to sell the large format gear and go tilt shift lenses.
I coveted an HTS attachment for the Hasselblad but think now that the Canon TSE on the X1D is a system I can carry in my backpack rather than a car.

If you need additional lights then battery powered LED should work.
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eronald

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #63 on: July 21, 2018, 08:03:10 pm »



You're right - maybe eshutter isn't quite mature yet- and still maybe it needs to be improved rather than abandoned, just like sensor stabilisation.

Sensor stabilisation doesn't work for sports. Eshutter has movement issues for now, and pixel shift works best on a tripod. But maybe all three are useful to some ... eg. architecture shooters, and will go mainstream at some point, even in medium format.

Some architecture shooters don't use strobes :)


Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2018, 06:24:31 am »

Hi,

I use the HCam Master TSII as a tilt and shift device with my Sony A7rII.


For shifts, I have the Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII which I would use with the Metabones mark IV FE mount adapter. The Canon 16-35/4L offers a lot of shift from 20 mm and up.

For tilts I often use the Contax 28-85/3.3-4 or the Contax 35-135/3.3-4.5 both lenses are pretty good and allow 10 degree tilt but very little shift. The main advantage is the manual aperture.

Don't know if that device is available for the X1D.

Best regards
Erik


Fair enough. Architecture is pretty specialised though. Certainly not 90% of professional uses.
With a technical camera I would not recommend any "camera" be attached.
I had a 4x5 camera using film and thought that it would be great to use my Canon DSLR with it. It was  complete fail. It becomes a case of a lot more than resolution. The physics just don't work.

My first attempt at attaching a Canon DSLR to an adaptor plate and then mounting it on the back of the 4x5 camera showed that the camera sensor was now 75mm behind where it was before, so my minimum focal length was now much longer at around 120mm and my effective sensor size was much smaller. Wide angle was non existent. (Obviously mirrorless would be not so bad.)

That was one of the reasons to get a medium format system so that I could use the back only and have the sensor at the same plane as the film was located.
Using rough maths, this is what happens.
You have say a 200mm focal length lens with film that is say 100mm wide to produce an image. You replace the film back with a medium format back that is only 50mm wide. You have lost all of your wide angle so you need a much wider lens of say 100mm focal length. That may work OK because you still have at least 100mm between the sensor plane and the lens centre. However it is still not very wide.

I tried various things with a Cambo Wide DS which would require a huge investment of lenses before deciding to sell the large format gear and go tilt shift lenses.
I coveted an HTS attachment for the Hasselblad but think now that the Canon TSE on the X1D is a system I can carry in my backpack rather than a car.

If you need additional lights then battery powered LED should work.
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eronald

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2018, 09:38:33 am »

Erik,

 It doesn't help - everybody here is going to ignore you because you aren't "professional" and so you can't possibly know what you are talking about, and also the examples you give are 35mm and so how can they be relevant to MF?

 Back when I was younger, I did a furniture catalog shoot once for a designer in Venice Italy, and used my 24 TSE for the shots of the larger items. It was hell, 3 days, lots of pieces, with exposure times of several seconds together with strobes, balancing inside lights against outdoor, setups which took an hour at a time etc. but the results were pleasant looking and after that I knew that having a shift/tilt lens even if it is inconvenient and not sharp is a world different from not having one. If I were a pro and owned a Hassy, a shift/tilt adapter for something, anything reasonably wide, eg. a legacy MF or large-format lens, would sound lovely.

Edmund
 

Hi,

I use the HCam Master TSII as a tilt and shift device with my Sony A7rII.


For shifts, I have the Canon 24/3.5 TSE LII which I would use with the Metabones mark IV FE mount adapter. The Canon 16-35/4L offers a lot of shift from 20 mm and up.

For tilts I often use the Contax 28-85/3.3-4 or the Contax 35-135/3.3-4.5 both lenses are pretty good and allow 10 degree tilt but very little shift. The main advantage is the manual aperture.

Don't know if that device is available for the X1D.

Best regards
Erik
« Last Edit: July 22, 2018, 11:22:38 am by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2018, 12:21:54 pm »

Hi Edmund,

I try to give some feedback.

Just to say, I still own some Hasselblad stuff and a P45+. My plan was to use it on a technical camera. As a stop gap measure I bought a Flexbody, which worked quite well when shooting under studio like conditions but was totally unusable in the field.

There are professional guys here, like Chris Barret. He uses Sony A7r# on Arca Swiss and uses old Hasselblad CF lenses but also some of the Canon I use (as far as I know). So, I don't think professionals are ignorant, but I do think they have some different considerations than non professionals.

Just to say, Chris Barret also shoots 8"x10" on film, but I think he does it for pleasure. Chris indicated that he may buy a 100 MP X1D, once it arrives. Not because it solves some needs, but for the pleasure.

I think that amateurs and professionals have in common that they both want to make good pictures. So, they often use equipment that is adequate for the task at hand.

I my case, I was shooting pretty much with the P45+ and my old Hasselblad V system. But, once the Sony A7rII arrived it delivered as good or better image quality as the P45+. It did deliver that image quality in a convenient way, with live view and real time histograms and zebras. So, I essentially knew that I nailed the images I wanted to shoot. I think that is as important to amateurs as to pros.

Personally, I find it very exciting that we now have MFD systems, like X1D and GFX delivering MFD quality at a reasonable price. Also, I actually think that systems like the X1D and the Fuji GFX deliver better quality than say Hasselblad or Phase One in the small medium format. Why? Because they are optimized for the sensor size.

Just consider this, a Hasselblad 40/4 CFi FLE lens is actually optimized for 56x56 mm film. If you shoot it on a 44x33 mm camera it will still illuminate that 56x56 area. You are better absorbing/shielding that light if you shoot on smaller formats. Light bouncing around in the lens barrel will not improve you images.

So, I think that a system designed around the 44x33 mm sensor makes a lot of sense. I don't feel I need to invest in such a system, as I would not print very large. My max print size is more like 30"x40" and at that size I would say that 36x24 mm digital can deliver adequate print quality, when properly handled.

So, would someone give me 15k$US to spend, I would rather buy a 200-400 zoom from Canon with a built in extender than an X1D with 2-3 lenses.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

 It doesn't help - everybody here is going to ignore you because you aren't "professional" and so you can't possibly know what you are talking about, and also the examples you give are 35mm and so how can they be relevant to MF?

 Back when I was younger, I did a furniture catalog shoot once for a designer in Venice Italy, and used my 24 TSE for the shots of the larger items. It was hell, 3 days, lots of pieces, with exposure times of several seconds together with strobes, balancing inside lights against outdoor, setups which took an hour at a time etc. but the results were pleasant looking and after that I knew that having a shift/tilt lens even if it is inconvenient and not sharp is a world different from not having one. If I were a pro and owned a Hassy, a shift/tilt adapter for something, anything reasonably wide, eg. a legacy MF or large-format lens, would sound lovely.

Edmund
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eronald

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2018, 01:27:47 pm »

Hi Edmund,

I try to give some feedback.

Just to say, I still own some Hasselblad stuff and a P45+. My plan was to use it on a technical camera. As a stop gap measure I bought a Flexbody, which worked quite well when shooting under studio like conditions but was totally unusable in the field.

There are professional guys here, like Chris Barret. He uses Sony A7r# on Arca Swiss and uses old Hasselblad CF lenses but also some of the Canon I use (as far as I know). So, I don't think professionals are ignorant, but I do think they have some different considerations than non professionals.

Just to say, Chris Barret also shoots 8"x10" on film, but I think he does it for pleasure. Chris indicated that he may buy a 100 MP X1D, once it arrives. Not because it solves some needs, but for the pleasure.

I think that amateurs and professionals have in common that they both want to make good pictures. So, they often use equipment that is adequate for the task at hand.

I my case, I was shooting pretty much with the P45+ and my old Hasselblad V system. But, once the Sony A7rII arrived it delivered as good or better image quality as the P45+. It did deliver that image quality in a convenient way, with live view and real time histograms and zebras. So, I essentially knew that I nailed the images I wanted to shoot. I think that is as important to amateurs as to pros.

Personally, I find it very exciting that we now have MFD systems, like X1D and GFX delivering MFD quality at a reasonable price. Also, I actually think that systems like the X1D and the Fuji GFX deliver better quality than say Hasselblad or Phase One in the small medium format. Why? Because they are optimized for the sensor size.

Just consider this, a Hasselblad 40/4 CFi FLE lens is actually optimized for 56x56 mm film. If you shoot it on a 44x33 mm camera it will still illuminate that 56x56 area. You are better absorbing/shielding that light if you shoot on smaller formats. Light bouncing around in the lens barrel will not improve you images.

So, I think that a system designed around the 44x33 mm sensor makes a lot of sense. I don't feel I need to invest in such a system, as I would not print very large. My max print size is more like 30"x40" and at that size I would say that 36x24 mm digital can deliver adequate print quality, when properly handled.

So, would someone give me 15k$US to spend, I would rather buy a 200-400 zoom from Canon with a built in extender than an X1D with 2-3 lenses.

Best regards
Erik

Hi Erik,

 I've noted that the images posted on http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com are quite nice.

 But of course you are right and there  are fewer and fewer use cases where a very flexible universal 35mm system like A7R2 is not preferable to have in the bag to a fairly limited heavier MF system.
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landscapephoto

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2018, 04:46:19 pm »

Hi Erik,

 I've noted that the images posted on http://www.hasselbladdigitalforum.com are quite nice.

 But of course you are right and there  are fewer and fewer use cases where a very flexible universal 35mm system like A7R2 is not preferable to have in the bag to a fairly limited heavier MF system.

That is amusing. I actually own a A7R2 and some lenses (including the very nice 35mm f/1.4, 100mm STM and 24-70 f/2.8 zoom). I also own a much more limited and heavier MF system in the form of an antique H4D-50.
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eronald

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2018, 05:08:42 pm »

That is amusing. I actually own a A7R2 and some lenses (including the very nice 35mm f/1.4, 100mm STM and 24-70 f/2.8 zoom). I also own a much more limited and heavier MF system in the form of an antique H4D-50.

Tell us more ...

Edmund
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BobShaw

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2018, 07:15:36 pm »

I also own a much more limited and heavier MF system in the form of an antique H4D-50.
I just sold my H4D system and bought an X1D for cash from it. I am currently using the H series lenses with the adaptor but the next step is using the Canon 24TSE for landscape. I think the X1D is smaller and lighter than my Canon 5Ds.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2018, 10:19:14 pm »

Hi Bob,

Hopefully, you will share your experience!

Best regards
Erik


I just sold my H4D system and bought an X1D for cash from it. I am currently using the H series lenses with the adaptor but the next step is using the Canon 24TSE for landscape. I think the X1D is smaller and lighter than my Canon 5Ds.
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landscapephoto

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #72 on: July 23, 2018, 02:28:56 pm »

Tell us more ...

In a nutshell, I prefer the ergonomics and viewfinder of the large camera. I also prefer its colours and the rendering of its lenses, although I will admit that the "G-master" series of Sony lenses is extremely good. I prefer the weight of the A7RII, enjoy its extraordinary capacities at night (stabilisation on fast lenses and high iso), and also use it as a 4K camcorder. Ergonomics of the A7 series is a disgrace.
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