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Author Topic: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?  (Read 4857 times)

landscapephoto

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #20 on: June 01, 2018, 04:39:26 PM »

I am a bit late to that party but, from several visits to museums with large prints from sheet film and MF cameras, I would estimate 8 x 10 to be around 100 mpix, and even a bit more for B&W. That is when I consider the resolution of fine details only. On other aspects, the mediums are visually different.

An aspect which I did not see in this thread is the compromise between depth of field and diffraction. To get adequate depth of field on 8 x 10, one has to close the aperture to f/32 or even more on most subjects. In turn, that implies that resolution is limited by diffraction to something around 100-150 mpix. The limit is not that much different for digital MF. There is no limit when taking pictures of flat subject or when everything is infinitely far, because we don't need depth of field then. But for 3-dimensional subjects and taking into account individual tastes as to what depth of field is desired, probably an upper limit on resolution is also to be expected and that limit is independent of the format.
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BAB

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #21 on: July 13, 2018, 09:28:47 PM »

There are those who will argue but....Its a trick question but the real answer baring all the BS is its a different look at its best, time and capture is more expensive. With perfect light an 8x10 can be extraordinary but 100mp sensor is always approaching that level and better when bracketed without the extra effort.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2018, 10:22:51 AM »

It may depend on how you scan and process those 8"x10" images...

Best regards
Erik

Just saw this video on the Hasselblad site and at about the 1.20 mark, he states that he had his lab do a print and that it was able to resolve better than those from his film 8 x 10 camera....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=60&v=1BplS1MmZXk

Anybody shooting with either the X1D or GFX and care to comment? 

I still think the prints I have seen from 8 x 10 negatives are the absolute ultimate to my eyes but would be interested to know what others thought.. :)
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BobShaw

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2018, 03:29:21 AM »

....  I would estimate 8 x 10 to be around 100 mpix, and even a bit more for B&W.....
I always regarded 35mm film to be the equivalent of 20MP. When the 5D2 came out we finally had a digital as good as film.
So based on that medium format film is about 45MP.
8x10 film would be about (250/36) x 200/24 x 20MP which is about 1157 MP.
But who cares. That is the film only and assumes that the lens is able to resolve that which is unlikely.

At the end of the day to produce an 8x10 print from an 8x10 negative you don't have to magnify at all. To produce an 8x10 print from even a medium format X1D at 44 x 33mm would be magnification of 250/44 x 200/33 or about 34 times. Again though, who cares. You can get a great 8x10 print from an iPhone. Make a print a metre wide an look at it.
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landscapephoto

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2018, 02:37:24 PM »

8x10 film would be about (250/36) x 200/24 x 20MP which is about 1157 MP.

This calculation ignores that the tolerances in a typical LF camera are much larger than in a small format one, that a sheet of LF film is not as flat as it should be, that LF lenses are used at apertures where diffraction is a limitation, etc...

As I already said, when one visits exhibitions with LF, MF and digital prints the situation is different than what naive calculations show.
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2018, 03:33:24 PM »

Hi,

There was a test organized by Tim Parkin, here: https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/big-camera-comparison/

Some commentary: https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/big-camera-comparison-comments/

I particularly noted that Hans Strand noted that MFD was preferable to 4"x5" and the probable cause of that was depth of field and diffraction.

Editor's commentary is also interesting: https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/camera-test-editors-commentary/

My own experience is that digital images have better quality than film. I would think that film can sometimes resolve more high contrast detail. The quality of film images also depends on processing.

Almost any good lens I have ever tested performed best at f/5.6 or so, at least in the sweet spot of the lens. So, I would say that diffraction effects show up at f/8.

Imaging theory essentially says that diameter of the aperture decides the performance of a well designed lens.

Best regards
Erik



This calculation ignores that the tolerances in a typical LF camera are much larger than in a small format one, that a sheet of LF film is not as flat as it should be, that LF lenses are used at apertures where diffraction is a limitation, etc...

As I already said, when one visits exhibitions with LF, MF and digital prints the situation is different than what naive calculations show.
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landscapephoto

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2018, 05:20:38 PM »

There was a test organized by Tim Parkin, here: https://www.onlandscape.co.uk/2011/12/big-camera-comparison/

This comparison dates back to 2011, 7 years ago. It says so right there in the url, actually.

Phase One 80 MP back was already available then. The test shows that back to be comparable to 8"x10" film. No equal, just comparable. But also not 10 times worse as in "8" x 10" film would be 1157 MP"
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BobShaw

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2018, 06:54:21 PM »

This calculation ignores that the tolerances in a typical LF camera are much larger than in a small format one, that a sheet of LF film is not as flat as it should be, that LF lenses are used at apertures where diffraction is a limitation, etc...

As I already said, when one visits exhibitions with LF, MF and digital prints the situation is different than what naive calculations show.
Naive?
I did say that I was referring to just the film.
Show me the real world examples of where a 100MP camera is 10 times better than a 10MP camera. There are diminishing returns yes, but even a little better is better if it matters, and often it does.
It also has a lot to do with the photographer.
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eronald

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2018, 07:10:43 PM »

What I find interesting about recent X1D threads is that many users really like the camera. Hassy have hit a home run. If the price of a good relationship with Sony was Lunar, maybe it was worth it :)

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2018, 01:58:49 AM »

Hi Edmund,

Good point!

I would think that the X1D has a couple of advantages over most competitors.

  • The lenses are designed for the actual sensor size.
  • Autofocus is based on contrast detection.

In all probability the lenses are a bit sharper than lenses designed for the full 645 format. My understanding is also that they are calculated for 100 MP sensor resolution.

Contrast detecting auto focus (CDAF) is as accurate as it gets, as it does analyse the actual image. In almost all cases PDAF is less accurate. But, both CDAF and PDAF can have issues with focus shift. With CDAF it is possible to focus at any aperture.

So the X1D has a great set of lenses and a very accurate focusing system. Leaf shutter and no mirror keeps vibrations low. So, it is quite probable that the X1D can deliver excellent image quality.

If a photographer used 8"x10" and hw now happens to be using the X1D does not say that the X1D matches 8"x10".

Back in 2006, when the 39 MP P45 arrived, quite a few photographers switched from 4"x5" to the P45. Some discussions here:

https://luminous-landscape.com/single-video/interview-charles-cramer/
https://luminous-landscape.com/single-video/california-llvj-16/

So, it may be a relevant assumption that something like 39 MP is good match for 4"x5" film scanned at 2000PPI, which semt to be what the folks in the videos compared with.

8"x10" has four times the area of 4"x5", so I don't think that X1D can match that. But taking other factors into account, like vibrations, film flatness, wind it may be much more practical.

It would be interesting to compare the X1D with the H6D50c. I would guess that the X1D would win. But, would you compare the X1D to the H6D100c it would win.

I guess that X2D is around the corner somewhere, with the new 100 MP sensor. Will the 100 MP X2d match the H6D100c?

Having well performing MFD at decent prices is very nice.

Best regards
Erik





What I find interesting about recent X1D threads is that many users really like the camera. Hassy have hit a home run. If the price of a good relationship with Sony was Lunar, maybe it was worth it :)

Edmund
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2018, 07:34:49 PM »

I really dig the design of this camera, but it's not really workable for my commercial workflow.  An X2d, though... I'd probably jump on it just to have.

eronald

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #31 on: July 17, 2018, 04:40:26 AM »

I really dig the design of this camera, but it's not really workable for my commercial workflow.  An X2d, though... I'd probably jump on it just to have.

That's what I meant: Hassy has made a product which people really like! This enthusiasm had been missing from MF for a long time.

I think the Hassy with its total lack of internal moving parts may be called the first true electronic still camera :)



Edmund
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 04:44:55 AM by eronald »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #32 on: July 17, 2018, 08:55:33 AM »

Hi Chris,

Once you have the X2D, you can compare it to 8"x10"? But, I guess that image quality is not what you shoot 8"x10"?

Best regards
Erik

I really dig the design of this camera, but it's not really workable for my commercial workflow.  An X2d, though... I'd probably jump on it just to have.
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Chris Barrett

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #33 on: July 17, 2018, 07:16:44 PM »

Heh, if I get that thing in my hands, I'll definitely do a comparison with a still-life in the studio

BobShaw

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #34 on: July 17, 2018, 07:24:29 PM »

Just like a Canon 5D3 or 5D4 was little different to a 5D2, I doubt that an X2D will be much different to an X1D.
It is a winner at a similar price to a high end 35mm. Why wouldn't you want one?
I don't even have any lenses that AF yet.
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pschefz

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #35 on: July 17, 2018, 07:54:36 PM »

Just like a Canon 5D3 or 5D4 was little different to a 5D2, I doubt that an X2D will be much different to an X1D.
It is a winner at a similar price to a high end 35mm. Why wouldn't you want one?
I don't even have any lenses that AF yet.
if we assume that the not even announced X2D will have the new 100mpix sensor, it will be a completely different camera....
the 50mpix sensor is great but pretty old by now and everything about the new one is just way better, faster and more efficient and even if it does not come with PDAF it will make the X2D a very different camera....
will a 11x14 print look any different? will it be possible to tell which is which from a normal size print? maybe not, but the overall shooting experience will hopefully be very different.
i pasted this X1D hands onn experience video in the other thread as well....I like that they show what it is like to shoot with it....and the first review  (afaik) to show the pixel advantage of a 3x4 sensor compared to 35mm when printing 8x10, 11x14,....one of my main reasons to stick with the same sensor in the GFX....

the question is not necessarily if the X1D or GFX out resolve 8x10 but if any of the great masters that used to shoot 8x10 would rather take the X1D or GFX on the road given the option.....i know all people i used to know who shot 8x10 for work would take a digital capture over  film as long as it was able to do T/S and they would have loved focus stacking....

8x10 is a way of shooting much more then an ultimate result these days...nothing wrong with it at all...but pixel peeping does not make much sense....
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #36 on: July 18, 2018, 04:11:50 PM »

Hi,

I would think that the X1D will be a much better camera than the X1D. Why, because I guess that Hasselblad has a lot of feedback from users and I also think they have defined the camera's place in the marketplace better. Not least, I think they can employ more technology from DJI who is their main owner, according to this site.

Still, I don't I would buy the X2D, even if I could afford it. Having 100 MP would be nice, if I would print very large, like 40"x60". The only prints I have at that size are on canvas, and I don't think I would need 100 MP for that. My Sony A7rII covers my needs pretty well, I think.

But, if we need a larger format camera, I think that 44x33 mm with a 100 MP sensor makes a lot of sense. I also happen to think that you need 100 MP to make those new lenses for the GFX and the X1D justice.

Best regards
Erik



Just like a Canon 5D3 or 5D4 was little different to a 5D2, I doubt that an X2D will be much different to an X1D.
It is a winner at a similar price to a high end 35mm. Why wouldn't you want one?
I don't even have any lenses that AF yet.
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eronald

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #37 on: July 18, 2018, 06:54:22 PM »

Hi,

I would think that the X1D will be a much better camera than the X1D. Why, because I guess that Hasselblad has a lot of feedback from users and I also think they have defined the camera's place in the marketplace better. Not least, I think they can employ more technology from DJI who is their main owner, according to this site.

Still, I don't I would buy the X2D, even if I could afford it. Having 100 MP would be nice, if I would print very large, like 40"x60". The only prints I have at that size are on canvas, and I don't think I would need 100 MP for that. My Sony A7rII covers my needs pretty well, I think.

But, if we need a larger format camera, I think that 44x33 mm with a 100 MP sensor makes a lot of sense. I also happen to think that you need 100 MP to make those new lenses for the GFX and the X1D justice.

Best regards
Erik

Erik,

 I think we can expect an "X1D MarkII" with 50MP but a better shooting experience.

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #38 on: July 19, 2018, 08:15:48 AM »

Hi Edmund,

May be. My impression is that it 100% clear that the next 44x33 mm sensor will be 100 MP and there will not be a new generation of the 50 MP 44x33 mm sensor. I think this is quite clear from some of Ming Thein's writing.

So, we will see major upgrade with the 100 MP sensor. It is quite possible that modifications with the new model would be passed down the line for an upgrade of the old model.

But, I don't think that makes a lot of sense. I would guess that we may see an X2D50c model that has the old sensor and an X2D100c model with the new sensor.

I would also guess that the X2D will have some new ASIC/LSI stuff developed in cooperation with DJI. I am not sure a small company like Hasselblad would split engineering resources to make a multitude of models, although that strategy seems to be working for Leica.

As a side note, Ming Thein indicated that the 50 MP sensor was intended for DSLRs, not EVF systems. So, it is quite feasible that the 100 MP sensor will come with a better feature set for EVF. In case you missed it, Ming Thein is now employed as director of strategy by Hasselblad. So, he is probably one of those guys who know, but are not allowed to tell.

Anyway, it is nice that affordable MFD is here.

Best regards
Erik

 



Erik,

 I think we can expect an "X1D MarkII" with 50MP but a better shooting experience.

Edmund
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pschefz

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Re: Does the X1D resolve better than 8 x 10 film?
« Reply #39 on: July 19, 2018, 12:31:43 PM »

i also doubt that there will be a X2D (50mpix)....fuji is rumored to come out with a smaller (more X1D like i guess) GFX50R (rangefinder?) which should be the last time we see this sensor being used. when fuji and hasselblad set out to do mirrorless DMF they knew they that price was key, so the older 50 pix sensor made a lot of sense....but now they know that these systems have been well received and it makes sense to push forward....the next round has to put more pressure on FF mirrorless in function and features to justify the higher price....its one thing to bring an older but still used sensor to the market at a much lower price then existing DMF, but now i am not sure how many people even consider those old high end systems anymore.....and everybody is already talking about the 100mpix systems as if they are already announced (shipping is still a year? away), nikon is coming out with a mirrorless system to go head to head with sony's A7 line....the next fuji and hasselblad models will not only have to have pretty amazing sensors (to keep an edge) but also really step up the overall handling and functionality of the bodies.....it wont be enough for the X2D or GFX100 to have better AF then a phase or H6....it will be compared to the A7RIII and D850....i think fuji will have an advantage because of their in house experience with the smaller systems....
either way: it is simply stupid how good the files out of the A7RIII or D850 actually are....it is really hard to find shortcomings and one really has to nitpick and we all know that sony definitely does not sleep....
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