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Author Topic: 5ds vs 5d "classic"  (Read 6062 times)

smthopr

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5ds vs 5d "classic"
« on: May 04, 2018, 05:30:29 PM »

I thought I would "ask the audience" on this one.

I've had a 5D 12mpx since 2008.  It seems to make nice prints up to 24 inches wide or so.

And I just bought a used 5ds, thinking that it would be quite a bit more detailed at 50mpx.

But, after a few test frames, I can certainly see the difference, but it's not overwhelming me.  And I do have 6x9 medium format film cameras as well.

So, those of you with more experience with a 50mpx camera, I want to ask you is the 5ds worth the almost $3000 that it cost me?

I can return the 5ds to b&h if I want to. 

Also, the 5Ds has the shaking dust cleaner and perhaps better high ISO performance.  Would that make the upgrade worth all this money?

Thanks so much for your responses!!!!!
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smthopr

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #1 on: May 05, 2018, 02:13:29 PM »

Nobody here uses a 5Ds and wants to chime in?  I'll be traveling very soon and won't have time to really get used to it.  And once I leave, it will be too late to return it...
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Eric Myrvaagnes

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #2 on: May 05, 2018, 03:30:14 PM »

I can't speak for the 5Ds, but I happily moved from my original 5D several years ago to the 5DII. My 5D took great photos (I never print bigger than 12x18" on 13x19" paper,) but what moved me to the Mark II was the sensor shaking feature.

With the original 5D I spent many hours cleaning the sensor with every available cleaning device. The clincher was photographing during a dust storm in White Sands National Park in New Mexico. I was smart enough not to change lenses, but still enough dust got in to leave conspicuous spots, especially in skies, in all later shots on that trip.

With the 5DII I never had to clean the sensor at all, and I believe the focusing was faster than the 5D.

If I were you, I'd look for a good used 5DII or 5DIII.

I no longer have my 5DII or any of my Canon lenses either. When I got tired of lugging a big Gitzo tripod and several lenses around (I am about to turn 79 years old,) I moved to a superzoom camera: the Sony RX10 III, which, with a smaller sensor but a very sharp Zeiss zoom lens that ranges from 24mm to 600mm (FF equivalent), is easily hand-holdable and prints very well. I love it!

Good luck!

-Eric
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Mike D. B.

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2018, 04:49:29 PM »

...what moved me to the Mark II was the sensor shaking feature.
Same here.  That's the (main) reason I bought the 5D MK III.  The sensor on the (original) 5D needed constant cleaning.

I still have both Canon bodies but haven't used them for some two years, since I switched to Fujifilm X series.  I picked up the 5D MK III today and was shocked how large and heavy I found it.  I really like my Fujifilm gear!
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smthopr

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2018, 05:57:52 PM »

Thanks for the replies!

So, the dust shaker works that well?  That's a big plus for me.  I shy away from small apertures on my 5D as the dust spots show too well.

As for weight, I have 4 small non-L prime lenses.  I tend to use the camera only with one or two at a time and the camera is not so big with the little lenses :) And I've noticed that the 5Ds has faster auto focus and I guess "face detection" which I haven't yet tried.

I'm still interested in any opinions about low light / high ISO shooting with the 5Ds if anyone has some experience.
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one iota

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2018, 01:35:09 AM »

For what it is worth:

I have a 5Ds as well as a 5DII. The latter I still use. One of my photographic interests is architecture. I recently travelled (to Sri Lanka) with the 5Ds and two zoom lenses (L Lenses 24-105 f4 & 16-35 f4). The 5Ds handled the architectural interior shots hand-held  at maximum ISO 3200 cleanly with little appreciable loss of detail after processing....better than the 5DII would have. I also used a Panasonic Lumix LX 100 (about 12 Mp) for convenience.

I also like to crop sometimes radically to get the composition I'm after so all those extra pixels (50 as opposed to 21) come in very hand when printing.

I was an early adopter of the 5Ds paying a premium but have no buyers remorse as I still get a thrill when the image resolves on the screen.
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Mahn England

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2018, 06:56:09 AM »

I thought I would "ask the audience" on this one.

I've had a 5D 12mpx since 2008.  It seems to make nice prints up to 24 inches wide or so.

And I just bought a used 5ds, thinking that it would be quite a bit more detailed at 50mpx.

But, after a few test frames, I can certainly see the difference, but it's not overwhelming me.

Hi,

Don't own the 5Ds but in general, it requires very solid shooting technique (good lenses, optimal apertures, steady / tripod shooting) to get the most out of the high resolution. A good Raw converter also makes a difference, and finally good Capture sharpening is always needed.

With all of those well tuned, you should see a marked difference for the better. Don't fall into the trap of comparing the images between models at 100% zoom, the smaller sensels of the 5Ds will contain more information, e.g. more accurate diffraction and more detail, but they may look less sharp initially.

The technical improvements, sensor shake, coatings, new mirror mechanism, better DIGIC, etc. can only help.

Cheers,
Bart
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smthopr

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2018, 01:37:08 PM »

For what it is worth:

I have a 5Ds as well as a 5DII. The latter I still use. One of my photographic interests is architecture. I recently travelled (to Sri Lanka) with the 5Ds and two zoom lenses (L Lenses 24-105 f4 & 16-35 f4). The 5Ds handled the architectural interior shots hand-held  at maximum ISO 3200 cleanly with little appreciable loss of detail after processing....better than the 5DII would have. I also used a Panasonic Lumix LX 100 (about 12 Mp) for convenience.

I also like to crop sometimes radically to get the composition I'm after so all those extra pixels (50 as opposed to 21) come in very hand when printing.

I was an early adopter of the 5Ds paying a premium but have no buyers remorse as I still get a thrill when the image resolves on the screen.

Thank you One Iota :)  Like your screen name!

Yes, on my 5D1, ISO 800 is pretty much the limit with 1600 only good for desperate situations, noisy with shrinking DR.  So it's helpful to me to know you've been using yours at ISO3200.
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fredjeang2

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2018, 03:08:56 PM »

I thought I would "ask the audience" on this one.

I've had a 5D 12mpx since 2008.  It seems to make nice prints up to 24 inches wide or so.

And I just bought a used 5ds, thinking that it would be quite a bit more detailed at 50mpx.

But, after a few test frames, I can certainly see the difference, but it's not overwhelming me.  And I do have 6x9 medium format film cameras as well.

So, those of you with more experience with a 50mpx camera, I want to ask you is the 5ds worth the almost $3000 that it cost me?

I can return the 5ds to b&h if I want to. 

Also, the 5Ds has the shaking dust cleaner and perhaps better high ISO performance.  Would that make the upgrade worth all this money?

Thanks so much for your responses!!!!!
That's funny because it reminds me the unexpected surprise I had when put out of dust an old 12mpx Nikon D2Xs (that is not even a FX but DX) and put up with my D4 - D800
and even if there is obviously a difference, it is NOT overwhelming, except at higher isos where, yes, the gap is enormous.
I did some extreme enlargements beyond its limits above 2 meters and using sharpening the D2 stands still amazingly, my preferences even goes in favor of the D2Xs for people over more modern flagships, as long as isos are kept low.
And to be really honest, those old 12mpx pro camera that can be found in perfect state for about 400 could give a surprise or two because they were really really good. Same with the Canon but yours can go up to 1600 before falling apart completly while with the D2 is one stop less, I stated the limit at 800, then it's hugly.

This attachement below is 100% mag from the camera files, no retouching except I upsampled both at 50cm, from the imaging ressources comparometer: https://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM so everyone can donwload the same files.
Old tech vs current. 12mpx vs 20 etc...I take the D2XS over this Pana anytime at low isos. It makes think isn't it?
 :D

To your question about if the New 5D is worth the 3000 upgrade? If you don't print museum sizes, don't work with moving objects nor higher isos nor need to crop, the answer is probably no. And If you really need a great tool for photojournalism where AF perf and handling are state of the art there is the 1Dx2, a much better overall camera IMO, but more expensive. Coot has one, you can ask him.
Ps:you may try the Panasonic G9 if you have time. (it takes canon glasses with the Metabones and goes up to 80mpx for product photography, has good video features, is totally sealed, pro quality and smaller, and costs less than 2000. Panasonic also improved a lot their colour science on this model and the AF is good)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 03:43:09 PM by fredjeang2 »
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smthopr

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2018, 04:45:51 PM »

That's funny because it reminds me the unexpected surprise I had when put out of dust an old 12mpx Nikon D2Xs (that is not even a FX but DX) and put up with my D4 - D800
and even if there is obviously a difference, it is NOT overwhelming, except at higher isos where, yes, the gap is enormous.
I did some extreme enlargements beyond its limits above 2 meters and using sharpening the D2 stands still amazingly, my preferences even goes in favor of the D2Xs for people over more modern flagships, as long as isos are kept low.
And to be really honest, those old 12mpx pro camera that can be found in perfect state for about 400 could give a surprise or two because they were really really good. Same with the Canon but yours can go up to 1600 before falling apart completly while with the D2 is one stop less, I stated the limit at 800, then it's hugly.

This attachement below is 100% mag from the camera files, no retouching except I upsampled both at 50cm, from the imaging ressources comparometer: https://www.imaging-resource.com/IMCOMP/COMPS01.HTM so everyone can donwload the same files.
Old tech vs current. 12mpx vs 20 etc...I take the D2XS over this Pana anytime at low isos. It makes think isn't it?
 :D

To your question about if the New 5D is worth the 3000 upgrade? If you don't print museum sizes, don't work with moving objects nor higher isos nor need to crop, the answer is probably no. And If you really need a great tool for photojournalism where AF perf and handling are state of the art there is the 1Dx2, a much better overall camera IMO, but more expensive. Coot has one, you can ask him.
Ps:you may try the Panasonic G9 if you have time. (it takes canon glasses with the Metabones and goes up to 80mpx for product photography, has good video features, is totally sealed, pro quality and smaller, and costs less than 2000. Panasonic also improved a lot their colour science on this model and the AF is good)
I looked at the "Dave Box" in the "comparator" and the difference in resolution is pretty extreme, but I'm not sure if they used the same lens and the resolution chart is not centered either...  But, I am considering a gallery show later this year (yes I know, not a way to make money!)  and I'm thinking, that going forward, it might be nice to make some very large prints and the 12mpx 5d just will fall apart after 25-30 inches wide.  If I'm going through the trouble of shooting, might as well be "size" proof.  Even at 18inches my prints from 6x9 film are visibly more detailed than the 12mpx digital photos.  Of course the 6x9 scans are 12,000 pixels wide vs. 4000 pixels for the 5d 12mpx.
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fredjeang2

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2018, 06:00:48 PM »

I looked at the "Dave Box" in the "comparator" and the difference in resolution is pretty extreme, but I'm not sure if they used the same lens and the resolution chart is not centered either...  But, I am considering a gallery show later this year (yes I know, not a way to make money!)  and I'm thinking, that going forward, it might be nice to make some very large prints and the 12mpx 5d just will fall apart after 25-30 inches wide.  If I'm going through the trouble of shooting, might as well be "size" proof.  Even at 18inches my prints from 6x9 film are visibly more detailed than the 12mpx digital photos.  Of course the 6x9 scans are 12,000 pixels wide vs. 4000 pixels for the 5d 12mpx.
Yeah, but the experience with theaters also mirrors the gallery's client. The cine audience (I mean the one who pay the bills) doesn't care about 8k, HDR, Panavision and so on (but yes much more about audio) as long as the story catches and the actors-direction worked. In the same spirit, the art buyer values the artistical proposal and the emotional aspect way before others considerations and if a craftmanship has to enter into consideration it is rarely spotted towards resolution but paper and (important!!) framing materials and quality; depending very much on the print size and viewing distance then resolution enters into consideration of course but linked with those parameters always.

If someone is pixel peeping in a gallery, it is a photographer, and as such, not a potential buyer because they are all broke.
 
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smthopr

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2018, 06:23:00 PM »

Yeah, but the experience with theaters also mirrors the gallery's client. The cine audience (I mean the one who pay the bills) doesn't care about 8k, HDR, Panavision and so on (but yes much more about audio) as long as the story catches and the actors-direction worked. In the same spirit, the art buyer values the artistical proposal and the emotional aspect way before others considerations and if a craftmanship has to enter into consideration it is rarely spotted towards resolution but paper and (important!!) framing materials and quality; depending very much on the print size and viewing distance then resolution enters into consideration of course but linked with those parameters always.

If someone is pixel peeping in a gallery, it is a photographer, and as such, not a potential buyer because they are all broke.

Yes, I'm a photographer and... I've never bought someone else's print!  That said, the "Landscapey" photographs do have a bit more emotional impact when more detailed.  And now my 100mm lens can be a 200mm lens! (at 12mpx :)  I'm also getting significantly better low light possibilities and much better auto focus which I sometimes use.  And I just sold my beat up 5d to KEH today.  They were here in town and paid on the spot and I would probably get only $50 more for it on ebay...  So, congratulations to me!
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fredjeang2

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2018, 06:31:13 PM »

Yes, I'm a photographer and... I've never bought someone else's print!
Seeee?  :D :D ;)
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fredjeang2

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2018, 06:47:19 PM »

Yes, I'm a photographer and... I've never bought someone else's print!  That said, the "Landscapey" photographs do have a bit more emotional impact when more detailed.  And now my 100mm lens can be a 200mm lens! (at 12mpx :)  I'm also getting significantly better low light possibilities and much better auto focus which I sometimes use.  And I just sold my beat up 5d to KEH today.  They were here in town and paid on the spot and I would probably get only $50 more for it on ebay...  So, congratulations to me!
It is true that the audience of Landscape photography gives more importance to fine details.
But Landscape, as strange as it seems, is vastly popular in the US/Canada, much much less in Europe that is being considered as a minor genre in the gallery spheres. Probably because we're posh and arrogants. Here the big deal is people, photojournalism and conceptual. It is way more difficult for a landscape photographer to eat in Europe because the cultural codes do not match with this genre.
So yeah, I was writting from a european point of view.
But congrats anaway because you have a much better overall modern camera (specially AF and higher isos)
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one iota

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2018, 10:26:44 PM »

Thank you One Iota :)  Like your screen name!

Yes, on my 5D1, ISO 800 is pretty much the limit with 1600 only good for desperate situations, noisy with shrinking DR.  So it's helpful to me to know you've been using yours at ISO3200.

Well the 5Ds also has a sweeter noise than the 5DII...I've never understood the obsession some people have with zero noise! It's the character imparted by the medium.
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Mahn England

smthopr

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2018, 11:20:06 AM »

It is true that the audience of Landscape photography gives more importance to fine details.
But Landscape, as strange as it seems, is vastly popular in the US/Canada, much much less in Europe that is being considered as a minor genre in the gallery spheres. Probably because we're posh and arrogants. Here the big deal is people, photojournalism and conceptual. It is way more difficult for a landscape photographer to eat in Europe because the cultural codes do not match with this genre.
So yeah, I was writting from a european point of view.
But congrats anaway because you have a much better overall modern camera (specially AF and higher isos)

Well, my landscapes are often more "landscapey" than straight "landscape", that way they are not so popular anywhere!
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fredjeang2

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2018, 06:27:39 PM »

Well, my landscapes are often more "landscapey" than straight "landscape", that way they are not so popular anywhere!
Hey, I've been watching your pictures and there are a lot of very good images. I think you have a special talent for photojournalism, or photoreportage (I hate boundaries) but your style reminds me more of Magnum spirit than of a pure landscape photographer. Is that the meaning of Landscapey? The colours are really good but I expected it knowing your background in cine. I like the way you master the wide angle.
(on some web images I think you went a bit (or way) too agressive on sharpening, not all of them though.
But very very good work indeed. Worth exhibition for sure and in big sizes.

My 2cts: IMO, your landscapes are very good but you know, landscape photography is an overloaded genre ultimatly. I don't know if for being a de-cluttering freak but where there are too many dudes eating the same cake and it became repetitive...I don't know why everybody jumped into this blockbusting genre. Maybe because of global warming so we'll have landscape to remind us how cool nature had been before mankind screwed it all? Bizarre. On the other hand, talents in photoreportage is not that common and you possess this natural skill. I think there is something there waiting for you.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2018, 07:01:55 PM by fredjeang2 »
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smthopr

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2018, 07:13:34 PM »

Hey, I've been watching your pictures and there are a lot of very good images. I think you have a special talent for photojournalism, or photoreportage (I hate boundaries) but your style reminds me more of Magnum spirit than of a pure landscape photographer. Is that the meaning of Landscapey? The colours are really good but I expected it knowing your background in cine. I like the way you master the wide angle.
(on some web images I think you went a bit (or way) too agressive on sharpening, not all of them though.
But very very good work indeed. Worth exhibition for sure and in big sizes.

My 2cts: IMO, your landscapes are very good but you know, landscape photography is an overloaded genre ultimatly. I don't know if for being a de-cluttering freak but where there are too many dudes eating the same cake and it bacame repetitive...I don't know why everybody wants to do landscape. On the other hand, talents in photoreportage is not that common and you possess this natural skill. I think there is something there waiting for you.

Thanks so much for the kind words!!!!

I like your comments about Landscapes, considering this is the "Luminous Landscape" site.  It seems everyone here shoots landscapes!!!  Just for fun, I've attached the kind of landscape that interests me.  And to keep on topic, it's shot on 6x9 film and is pretty high resolution, and needs it.

Yes, I sometimes sharpen too much with the web posts.  But most are looking at phones these days, so it seems about right :)  I don't have too many images on my website, but I have many on Facebook if anyone here would like to "friend" me, you are welcome to.   https://www.facebook.com/bruce.alan.greene  If you do, also send a note so that I know that you're from LuLa.
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fredjeang2

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2018, 12:32:06 PM »

Thanks so much for the kind words!!!!

I like your comments about Landscapes, considering this is the "Luminous Landscape" site.  It seems everyone here shoots landscapes!!!  Just for fun, I've attached the kind of landscape that interests me.  And to keep on topic, it's shot on 6x9 film and is pretty high resolution, and needs it.

Yes, I sometimes sharpen too much with the web posts.  But most are looking at phones these days, so it seems about right :)  I don't have too many images on my website, but I have many on Facebook if anyone here would like to "friend" me, you are welcome to.   https://www.facebook.com/bruce.alan.greene  If you do, also send a note so that I know that you're from LuLa.
Your monochromes are on the best I have ever seen in the digital age.  Yep, you know a thing or two when it comes to get the look. ;)
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smthopr

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Re: 5ds vs 5d "classic"
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2018, 01:07:23 PM »

Your monochromes are on the best I have ever seen in the digital age.  Yep, you know a thing or two when it comes to get the look. ;)
Aw, shucks.  (that's American for "thanks" in a humble way)

Just to add to the original story...

I sold my 5d classic on Sunday to the KEH guys who came to town for the day.  Then, Monday, I discovered that my "new" used 5Ds had a crack in the camera body.  It had been dropped on it's head pretty hard at some point, but continued to work.  Obviously, I can't keep this camera in this condition.  But I'm leaving the country on Saturday, and now... I have no digital camera at all, just lenses :)

The guys at B&H seem very helpful and are sending me another used body overnight and will refund me for the original camera when they receive it back.  Wish me luck that this new "used" body is in working order!  I am glad that I didn't try to buy a used camera on ebay though...
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