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Author Topic: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape  (Read 2389 times)

Vieri Bottazzini

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Ladies and gentlemen, my new article about how to choose the best system for landscape photography is out, I hope you'll find it interesting:

CHOOSING THE BEST CAMERA SYSTEM FOR LANDSCAPE PHOTOGRAPHY

Thanks for reading, best regards

Vieri
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 07:11:19 AM by Vieri Bottazzini »
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Kevin Raber

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2018, 07:08:50 AM »

The link does not reach the page.  By the way you can always submit an article like this for us to consider publishing.  You'd reach a wide audience and get some good links back to your site.
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2018, 07:12:22 AM »

The link does not reach the page.  By the way you can always submit an article like this for us to consider publishing.  You'd reach a wide audience and get some good links back to your site.

Hello Kevin,

thank you for the heads up - fixed the link :) About submitting an article, that sounds great, I'd love to do that. How do I proceed to submit it to you? Let me know.

Best,

Vieri
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Vieri Bottazzini
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Endeavour

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2018, 12:23:52 PM »

Always interested to read articles on landscape photography, but it seemed less about how to chose a camera for landscapes, and more a promo for Leica (you're a Leica ambassador I take it?)

Leica - 56 times
Canon - 2 times

Nothing wrong with pushing a Leica review of course
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2018, 01:52:35 PM »

Always interested to read articles on landscape photography, but it seemed less about how to chose a camera for landscapes, and more a promo for Leica (you're a Leica ambassador I take it?)

Leica - 56 times
Canon - 2 times

Nothing wrong with pushing a Leica review of course

Endeavour, thank you for reading the article, and I am sorry you see it that way. The purpose of the article is to offer a system to guide people in their choice of camera, according to their purposes and requirements. My system is to invite you to sketch a series of questions which are fundamental for you, and answer them - the answers will help you choose your camera. Of course, to give you an example of the process - rather than keeping it abstract - I used my own questions, stating what I need and what works for me as a professional Fine Art photographer, and my answers to these questions. Using my case as an example not only serves as a guideline for you to prepare your series of questions and answers, but in my opinion could work for most landscape photographers (give or take this or that requirement).

Hope this helps clarifying the intent of the article. Best regards,

Vieri
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ned

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2018, 04:30:13 PM »

I need to know how to pick the right landscape for my cameras!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #6 on: April 20, 2018, 02:41:14 AM »

I need to know how to pick the right landscape for my cameras!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

:D That is the topic for a future article - once I found the solution I'll make sure to write about it!! :D

Best,

Vieri
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PeterAit

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #7 on: April 21, 2018, 11:44:56 AM »

With all due respect, what a waste of ink. There is not, and cannot be, a "best" system for landscapes. What a nonsensical idea!

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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #8 on: April 21, 2018, 02:43:27 PM »

With all due respect, what a waste of ink. There is not, and cannot be, a "best" system for landscapes. What a nonsensical idea!

Have you read the article? It appears not... :)

Best regards,

Vieri

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Jim Kasson

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #9 on: April 21, 2018, 04:37:24 PM »

Endeavour, thank you for reading the article, and I am sorry you see it that way. The purpose of the article is to offer a system to guide people in their choice of camera, according to their purposes and requirements. My system is to invite you to sketch a series of questions which are fundamental for you, and answer them - the answers will help you choose your camera. Of course, to give you an example of the process - rather than keeping it abstract - I used my own questions, stating what I need and what works for me as a professional Fine Art photographer, and my answers to these questions. Using my case as an example not only serves as a guideline for you to prepare your series of questions and answers, but in my opinion could work for most landscape photographers (give or take this or that requirement).


Let's look at the very first paragraph of your answer to the very first "need": "Sharpness and detail: We all know that for landscape photography the more detail the better. However, sharpness and detail do not depend on sensor resolution alone: what makes an image look sharp and detailed is first and foremost the quality of the lenses you use. So, while Leica SL has “only” 24 Mp, the amazing Leica SL optics make up for that, resolving more fine detail than pretty much any 35mm lens on the market – bar some Leica M optics, which I also can use on the SL if needed."

At best, this is highly biased. At worst, it is fanciful. I have not owned any SL lenses, but I have owned about a dozen M lenses, and currently own two, the 90 apo 'cron ASPH, and the current 135 Apo-Telyt.

I compared the Apo-Telyt to the 135/2 Sonnar a while back:

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/testing-the-sony-a7-part-11/

The Zeiss lens came off better, in spite of the handicap i gave it by putting it on a body with an AA filter.

I find the Otus 85 superior to the 90 'cron:

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/another-medium-tele-test-conclusion/

That doesn't mean that either of those Leica lenses are bad lenses, only that they are not better than other similarly priced (or cheaper) lenses.

I have a lot of Leica R glass, too, and find that there are several lenses that are markedly better than the Leica R 100 Apo macro: the CV 65/2 Macro, the Sony 90 Macro, the CV 125/2.5, and the Coastal 60/4. The Leica lens does have a wonderful helicoid, though.

I have compared the Leica 50 'lux M to the Otus 55, and the Leica lens doesn't even come close as a landscape lens, where off-axis sharpness is important.

And then there are Fuji G lenses that are absolutely spectacular: the 23/4, the 120/4 macro, the 110/2. All of these are Otus-class.

So in order for me to believe your statement, I'd have to believe that the SL lenses are so much better than the M lenses, and, say, the GFX lenses, that they can overcome having twice as many pixels under GFX lenses, or any of the FF lenses I've mentioned on the D850 or a7RIII. Since the GFX lenses can approach MTF50's of Nyquist on the GFX, that is on the face of it impossible. The CV 65 and the Otus 85 and 55 can come close to that on the a7RIII, too.

By making such extreme statements, you damage your credibility as an objective source.

There are many more examples of such hyperbole in the article.

Jim
« Last Edit: April 21, 2018, 05:53:07 PM by Jim Kasson »
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #10 on: April 21, 2018, 06:06:57 PM »

Let's look at the very first paragraph of your answer to the very first "need": "Sharpness and detail: We all know that for landscape photography the more detail the better. However, sharpness and detail do not depend on sensor resolution alone: what makes an image look sharp and detailed is first and foremost the quality of the lenses you use. So, while Leica SL has “only” 24 Mp, the amazing Leica SL optics make up for that, resolving more fine detail than pretty much any 35mm lens on the market – bar some Leica M optics, which I also can use on the SL if needed."

At best, this is highly biased. At worst, it is fanciful. I have not owned any SL lenses, but I have owned about a dozen M lenses, and currently own two, the 90 apo 'cron ASPH, and the current 135 Apo-Telyt.

I compared the Apo-Telyt to the 135/2 Sonnar a while back:

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/testing-the-sony-a7-part-11/

The Zeiss lens came off better, in spite of the handicap i gave it by putting it on a body with an AA filter.

I find the Otus 85 superior to the 90 'cron:

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/another-medium-tele-test-conclusion/

That doesn't mean that either of those Leica lenses are bad lenses, only that they are not better than other similarly priced (or cheaper) lenses.

I have a lot of Leica R glass, too, and find that there are several lenses that are markedly better than the Leica R 100 Apo macro: the CV 65/2 Macro, the Sony 90 Macro, the CV 125/2.5, and the Coastal 60/4. The Leica lens does have a wonderful helicoid, though.

I have compared the Leica 50 'lux M to the Otus 55, and the Leica lens doesn't even come close.

And then there are Fuji G lenses that are absolutely spectacular: the 23/4, the 120/4 macro, the 110/2. All of these are Otus-class.

So in order for me to believe your statement, I'd have to believe that the SL lenses are so much better than the M lenses, and, say, the GFX lenses, that they can overcome having twice as many pixels under GFX lenses, or any of the FF lenses I've mentioned on the D850 or a7RIII. Since the GFX lenses can approach MTF50's of Nyquist on the GFX, that is on the face of it impossible. The CV 65 and the Otus 85 and 55 can come close to that on the a7RIII, too.

By making such extreme statements, you damage your credibility as an objective source.

There are many more examples of such hyperbole in the article.

Jim

Jim,

Thank you for reading the article and for your answer. You seem to be missing the point, though. Let me see if I can help clarify things.

Once more, the article is meant to offer a method to choose whatever camera system suits your needs and requirements. I used my own situation (I am a professional landscape photographer) as a user case to exemplify the method. As such, I clearly expressed what my requirements are, and what my solutions are. The phrase you quoted, when taken in context, is obviously referring to lenses comparable to the ones I need to do my job. Comparing other lenses, lenses that are irrelevant for my requirements, is also irrelevant to the point of the article and therefore makes me think that you might not have gotten the point of the article to begin with.

For my job, I don't care about the Otus nor the 50mm Summilux M, I don't need them nor use them: so, I am glad to hear that you find the Otus better, but it is irrelevant for me and my point. Nor I do need any other lenses you mentioned in your reply to compare them to Leica equivalents - so, what is the point of introducing them in the comparison? Again, they are irrelevant for me. Find me a 24-90mm that is better than the Leica SL's and then I am interested. By the way, the very fact that it goes up to 90mm, for my job, means that in the 80-85% of the cases I don't need to bring a longer lens. Any other 35mm camera brand offers only 24-70mm, which means I definitely need to carry one extra lens: more weight, more bulk. And so on - find me another 35mm system that satisfies all my requirements, as I listed in the article, better than the Leica SL and I will be VERY interested, obviously.

As far as the Fuji, it's a great system but a no-go for me: it lacks ultra-wide angle lenses, is poor on zoom range, using it would force me to carry many primes, which is something I need to limit as much as possible (try changing primes in a blizzard in Iceland!), plus it doesn't have long focal length lenses for when I need them (and the ones you can adapt are enormous and extremely heavy), and so on.

See, for me the reason to choose the Leica SL is that it's the best FOR ME. It ticks all the boxes, in a way that no other 35mm system does, nor any medium format. I am sure that your needs and requirements are different, and I am not arguing otherwise.

However, the point of the article is to offer a method to choose the best equipment for the job: list your requirements, find a suitable solution, point by point.

Hope this helps. Best regards,

Vieri
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adias

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #11 on: April 23, 2018, 04:04:21 PM »

The article is clearly a puff piece. It would be fine if it had been presented referring to a generic sensor and lenses without pushing a specific brand.
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2018, 04:49:43 PM »

The article is clearly a puff piece. It would be fine if it had been presented referring to a generic sensor and lenses without pushing a specific brand.

You are free to believe what you want, of course. Best regards,

Vieri
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2018, 04:57:44 PM »

Hi,

Sorry to say, but Jim is right and you are wrong.

That said, 24 MP is adequate for say A2-print size (16"x23"), but I would also argue that 24 MP on 24x36 mm really needs an OLP filter. But, going beyond A2, like A1 will show the benefits of more pixels.

Having very good lenses combined with large pixels will always produce fake detail. That is the reason that almost all 24x36 mm systems use an OLP filter at 24MP. Going to higher resolutions, like 40-50 MP, it may be reasonable to drop the OLP-filter.

It is quite possible to make decent prints at say 30"x40" from 24MP, but there is no doubt that more megapixels would be beneficial at that size.

My personal experience is pretty much based on comparing the following systems:
  • 24 MP full frame (Sony A99)
  • 39 MP medium format (37x49 mm, Hasselblad 555/ELD and P45+ back)
  • 42 MP full frame (Sony A7rII)

So, no Leica here, I will gladly admit. But, there is no way that a better lens can compensate for the lack of sensor resolution, as soon as the sensor goes into aliasing.

Best regards
Erik

Jim,

Thank you for reading the article and for your answer. You seem to be missing the point, though. Let me see if I can help clarify things.

Once more, the article is meant to offer a method to choose whatever camera system suits your needs and requirements. I used my own situation (I am a professional landscape photographer) as a user case to exemplify the method. As such, I clearly expressed what my requirements are, and what my solutions are. The phrase you quoted, when taken in context, is obviously referring to lenses comparable to the ones I need to do my job. Comparing other lenses, lenses that are irrelevant for my requirements, is also irrelevant to the point of the article and therefore makes me think that you might not have gotten the point of the article to begin with.

For my job, I don't care about the Otus nor the 50mm Summilux M, I don't need them nor use them: so, I am glad to hear that you find the Otus better, but it is irrelevant for me and my point. Nor I do need any other lenses you mentioned in your reply to compare them to Leica equivalents - so, what is the point of introducing them in the comparison? Again, they are irrelevant for me. Find me a 24-90mm that is better than the Leica SL's and then I am interested. By the way, the very fact that it goes up to 90mm, for my job, means that in the 80-85% of the cases I don't need to bring a longer lens. Any other 35mm camera brand offers only 24-70mm, which means I definitely need to carry one extra lens: more weight, more bulk. And so on - find me another 35mm system that satisfies all my requirements, as I listed in the article, better than the Leica SL and I will be VERY interested, obviously.

As far as the Fuji, it's a great system but a no-go for me: it lacks ultra-wide angle lenses, is poor on zoom range, using it would force me to carry many primes, which is something I need to limit as much as possible (try changing primes in a blizzard in Iceland!), plus it doesn't have long focal length lenses for when I need them (and the ones you can adapt are enormous and extremely heavy), and so on.

See, for me the reason to choose the Leica SL is that it's the best FOR ME. It ticks all the boxes, in a way that no other 35mm system does, nor any medium format. I am sure that your needs and requirements are different, and I am not arguing otherwise.

However, the point of the article is to offer a method to choose the best equipment for the job: list your requirements, find a suitable solution, point by point.

Hope this helps. Best regards,

Vieri
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2018, 05:04:19 PM »

Hi,

Sorry to say, but Jim is right and you are wrong.

That said, 24 MP is adequate for say A2-print size (16"x23"), but I would also argue that 24 MP on 24x36 mm really needs an OLP filter. But, going beyond A2, like A1 will show the benefits of more pixels.

Having very good lenses combined with large pixels will always produce fake detail. That is the reason that almost all 24x36 mm systems use an OLP filter at 24MP. Going to higher resolutions, like 40-50 MP, it may be reasonable to drop the OLP-filter.

It is quite possible to make decent prints at say 30"x40" from 24MP, but there is no doubt that more megapixels would be beneficial at that size.

My personal experience is pretty much based on comparing the following systems:
  • 24 MP full frame (Sony A99)
  • 39 MP medium format (37x49 mm, Hasselblad 555/ELD and P45+ back)
  • 42 MP full frame (Sony A7rII)

So, no Leica here, I will gladly admit. But, there is no way that a better lens can compensate for the lack of sensor resolution, as soon as the sensor goes into aliasing.

Best regards
Erik

Hello Erik,

thank you for posting. Just saying "you are wrong" doesn't make it so. You offer nothing more than just anecdotal evidence based on what you think is adequate, so I'll take as such. And, again, you also missed the point of the article - as did Jim. Best regards,

Vieri
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2018, 05:42:54 PM »

Hi Vieri,

I don't think that neither Jim or I missed any points.

Just to make it clear, hell will freeze to ice before an adequately design 24 MP system will surpass an adequately designed 40-50 MP system at same or larger formats.

I would think that Fuji has a real winner with the GFX, and it has a lot of lens options. The 23 mm corresponds to 16.7 mm on full frame, if you consider image height.

On the long side there is 250/4.

The Leica SL is a bit behind the competition in dynamic range: http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#FujiFilm%20GFX%2050S,Leica%20SL%20(Typ%20601),Sony%20ILCE-7RM3

In short, my take is:
  • Will the Leica SL deliver excellent A2 prints? I think so.
  • Will the Leica SL deliver excellent 30"x40" prints? I doubt.
  • Will the Leica SL deliver prints as good as a well tuned MFD system at 30"x40", I don't think so.
  • Will the Leica SL deliver prints as good as another 24 MP 24x36 MP system? It is quite possible.



Best regards
Erik

Hello Erik,

thank you for posting. Just saying "you are wrong" doesn't make it so. You offer nothing more than just anecdotal evidence based on what you think is adequate, so I'll take as such. And, again, you also missed the point of the article - as did Jim. Best regards,

Vieri
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Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2018, 05:50:21 PM »

Hi Vieri,

I don't think that neither Jim or I missed any points.

Just to make it clear, hell will freeze to ice before an adequately design 24 MP system will surpass an adequately designed 40-50 MP system at same or larger formats.

I would think that Fuji has a real winner with the GFX, and it has a lot of lens options. The 23 mm corresponds to 16.7 mm on full frame, if you consider image height.

On the long side there is 250/4.

The Leica SL is a bit behind the competition in dynamic range: http://photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#FujiFilm%20GFX%2050S,Leica%20SL%20(Typ%20601),Sony%20ILCE-7RM3

In short, my take is:
  • Will the Leica SL deliver excellent A2 prints? I think so.
  • Will the Leica SL deliver excellent 30"x40" prints? I doubt.
  • Will the Leica SL deliver prints as good as a well tuned MFD system at 30"x40", I don't think so.
  • Will the Leica SL deliver prints as good as another 24 MP 24x36 MP system? It is quite possible.



Best regards
Erik

Erik,

You just proved me that you missed the point of the article. It is not about print size or resolution. It is about choosing the best camera system for your photography. For me, it is the Leica SL. For you, it is whatever you prefer. I offer a method, so that you can apply to your case and reach your own conclusions, which of course can be different than mine.

Best regards,

Vieri
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sarrasani

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2018, 05:52:41 PM »

Thank you, very interesting.
I love LF photography, and now I enjoy my "little field camera" A7r and similar because:
1) focusing by magnification (as on the glass of my 13X18, I choose the better focus area then I focus enlarging it). I use only MF (and fixed focal, as in LF photography) lenses. And Leica-r lenses are among my favourite, of course
2) great choice of lenses.....m42, exakta, leica-m, leica-r, contax, minolta, canon, other ones mounts.....
The sensor......good (the same, as we can see or test, used in many cameras of Nikon, Leica, others...), very better than 7-10 years ago sensors.
Waiting for a Sigma-Foveon 24X36 with a new mount that permit to use my lenses and not only m42.....
Surely excellent Leica products, wonderful (but I prefer magnification to telemetre) its monochrome, as beautiful the choice of
Vieri, that it's part of the excellence of his images.
All the best,
Sandro.

P.S.

My favourite lenses in combination with my a7r and a7rII, not only for landscape

10 mm. Voigtlander
18 mm. Contax-Zeiss
28 Elmarit leica-r
35 Summicron leica-r  (fantastic microcontrast and colour rendition, I adore it)
50 Contax 1.4
58 Minolta md 1.2  (great also for landscape)
60 leica-r macro and 60 Contax makro-planar  (what a match!!)
85 Summilux
100 Trioplan (I love those bubbles)
135 3.9 Angenieux
180 Contax Sonnar

and other ones, but for landscape........10 Voigtlander, 35 summicron, 58 Minolta (yes, leica style colour and great also for landscape) and let's go.

 :)  Be clear, only my 2 cents :)
All the best,
sandro
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Shen hao 13X18 camera.   Sigma dp-1, Sigma dp-3, Sony a7, Sony A7r digital cameras.
Various (Leica-R, Voigtlander, Mayer, Schneider, and Zeiss Contax especially) fixed focal/manual focus lenses.

Vieri Bottazzini

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2018, 02:30:09 AM »

Thank you, very interesting.
I love LF photography, and now I enjoy my "little field camera" A7r and similar because:
1) focusing by magnification (as on the glass of my 13X18, I choose the better focus area then I focus enlarging it). I use only MF (and fixed focal, as in LF photography) lenses. And Leica-r lenses are among my favourite, of course
2) great choice of lenses.....m42, exakta, leica-m, leica-r, contax, minolta, canon, other ones mounts.....
The sensor......good (the same, as we can see or test, used in many cameras of Nikon, Leica, others...), very better than 7-10 years ago sensors.
Waiting for a Sigma-Foveon 24X36 with a new mount that permit to use my lenses and not only m42.....
Surely excellent Leica products, wonderful (but I prefer magnification to telemetre) its monochrome, as beautiful the choice of
Vieri, that it's part of the excellence of his images.
All the best,
Sandro.

P.S.

My favourite lenses in combination with my a7r and a7rII, not only for landscape

10 mm. Voigtlander
18 mm. Contax-Zeiss
28 Elmarit leica-r
35 Summicron leica-r  (fantastic microcontrast and colour rendition, I adore it)
50 Contax 1.4
58 Minolta md 1.2  (great also for landscape)
60 leica-r macro and 60 Contax makro-planar  (what a match!!)
85 Summilux
100 Trioplan (I love those bubbles)
135 3.9 Angenieux
180 Contax Sonnar

and other ones, but for landscape........10 Voigtlander, 35 summicron, 58 Minolta (yes, leica style colour and great also for landscape) and let's go.

 :)  Be clear, only my 2 cents :)
All the best,
sandro

Thank you Sandro for your comment, I am glad you found the article interesting. Your process for choosing your kit exactly exemplifies what I meant with the article - set your requirements, and then find your solution. By the way, you have a great selection of old lenses!! :D

Best regards,

Vieri
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Vieri Bottazzini
Leica Ambassador | Formatt-Hitech Ambassador | ABIPP EP
https://vieribottazzini.com | https://vieribottazziniworkshops.com | https://vieribottazzinifineart.com

noeldaganta

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Re: New article on how to choose the best camera system for landscape
« Reply #19 on: April 26, 2018, 04:28:25 AM »

I am new to this forum. I am impressed with everyone's knowledge. Great resource. Thanks guys.
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