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Author Topic: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000  (Read 6875 times)

Nickilford

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Hello everyone, first post here,

I run a fine art printing business in Lisbon, Portugal, use a Canon Pro4000 (previously had iPF8100) and so far am really satisfied with it.

I use Canson papers that i love but noticed a slight shift in colour when matching print to screen with a new paper I purchased, Canson Baryta Prestige. I use i1 Photo Pro 2 to profile all my papers and monitor and have perfect results with every other paper i use, but the Prestige seems magenta-ish in the midtones especially. I tested the exact same (colour) image on Canson Platine and it looked fine, same as on my monitor. Then i tried the Platine profile with the Prestige and it improved slightly. When looking at the print isolated, it looks fine but when comparing to monitor or to the print made on Platine it looks different... more magenta. The difference in paper white between Platine (more natural, creamy white) and Prestige (colder white) is noticeable.

Has anyone had this experience with Prestige or any other paper? Could it be a problem with the profile i made? Any suggestions on how to get to the bottom of this?

Thanks!
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #1 on: April 09, 2018, 05:33:48 pm »

I reviewed this paper on this website, custom profiled it and noticed no such problem. I suspect of you remade the profile you would get better results. If you are using i1Profiler, try making your profile with the 2371 scrambled patch layout, test it and see what happens. Generate the patch set in i1Profiler (4 letter size pages), save them out as TIFFs to your hard drive and use Canon's Print Studio Pro for printing these targets with No Color Controls selected in the Color Management section of Print Studio Pro (lower right of the interface if I remember correctly.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Doug Gray

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #2 on: April 09, 2018, 05:48:11 pm »

I reviewed this paper on this website, custom profiled it and noticed no such problem. I suspect of you remade the profile you would get better results. If you are using i1Profiler, try making your profile with the 2371 scrambled patch layout, test it and see what happens. Generate the patch set in i1Profiler (4 letter size pages), save them out as TIFFs to your hard drive and use Canon's Print Studio Pro for printing these targets with No Color Controls selected in the Color Management section of Print Studio Pro (lower right of the interface if I remember correctly.
Seems like extra steps. Isn't one able to do the same printing in I1Profiler or are the settings obscure? That's worked for me on my Canon and Epson and it makes very good profile targets for both the I1Pro 2 and iSis. The large patch set will produce a very good profile but there shouldn't be a magenta cast with the 2 page (I1Pro) 918 patch set. If the process fails with that, a larger one has a high probability of failing too as it indicates some procedural error. Perhaps the Print Studio Pro eliminates incorrectly setting color management off? I would still be inclined to make the smaller profile first to make sure that approach is working.

Also, measuring a part of the print showing the magenta tint, then printing a patch of it with Abs. Col. then measuring that patch would let one see any color shift that's occurring.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 05:52:34 pm by Doug Gray »
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Nickilford

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #3 on: April 09, 2018, 05:51:24 pm »

I reviewed this paper on this website, custom profiled it and noticed no such problem. I suspect of you remade the profile you would get better results. If you are using i1Profiler, try making your profile with the 2371 scrambled patch layout, test it and see what happens. Generate the patch set in i1Profiler (4 letter size pages), save them out as TIFFs to your hard drive and use Canon's Print Studio Pro for printing these targets with No Color Controls selected in the Color Management section of Print Studio Pro (lower right of the interface if I remember correctly.

I usually make all my profiles using 2033 scrambled patches and have thought of re-profiling. I have never encountered this problem and all my papers match screen. Would the extra 300-so patches make a difference regarding cast? I have a strong feeling it won't but i suppose it's worth a try.
Thanks

I also thought of creating different monitor profiles for different papers where warranted for. Most, if not all, papers work great with a monitor white point of 6000k... would adjusting WP for this paper help? If so how do i measure paper WP properly with i1 Photo Pro 2... with the device in contact with paper or at a distance?

Thanks
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 05:56:48 pm by Nickilford »
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mearussi

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #4 on: April 09, 2018, 05:54:44 pm »

I've had no problem with Prestige at all, in fact it's become my favorite paper. I just use Canson's canned profile and the results are great, but I'm using a Epson.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2018, 05:57:45 pm »

Check Ethan Hansen's major post in this Forum (some time back) on preferred patch set sizes for i1Profiler. 2371 is a recommended one, 2033 isn't. 1877 is another preferred combination which I've also tested and found 2371 to be marginally more accurate. It isn't so much the number of patches that matters, it's the composition. As for using Print Studio Pro - it can be preferable to i1Profiler for printing targets for this new Canon Pro series of printers. This is according to Canon technical support in New York, I've tested it, and I know it's good. The issue is indeed assuring that Color Management is really OFF as understood by this printer driver.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Nickilford

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2018, 05:59:37 pm »

I've had no problem with Prestige at all, in fact it's become my favorite paper. I just use Canson's canned profile and the results are great, but I'm using a Epson.

Since I have been able to make my own profiles i just never remember this! Great way to test my profile!Thanks great idea!
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Nickilford

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2018, 06:10:49 pm »

Check Ethan Hansen's major post in this Forum (some time back) on preferred patch set sizes for i1Profiler. 2371 is a recommended one, 2033 isn't. 1877 is another preferred combination which I've also tested and found 2371 to be marginally more accurate. It isn't so much the number of patches that matters, it's the composition. As for using Print Studio Pro - it can be preferable to i1Profiler for printing targets for this new Canon Pro series of printers. This is according to Canon technical support in New York, I've tested it, and I know it's good. The issue is indeed assuring that Color Management is really OFF as understood by this printer driver.

Thanks Mark, i didn't know this... from now on i will do the 2371. I will try and track Ethan's post down. CHeers
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digitaldog

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2018, 09:52:39 pm »

It's not the number of patches per se, it's the patches used. I've yet to find more patches really beat Bill Atkinson's designed patch set; 1728 does the job quite well. And then, if so desired, a post optimization using i1P which can make very subtle improvements or none at all.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2018, 11:21:33 pm »

It's not the number of patches per se, it's the patches used. I've yet to find more patches really beat Bill Atkinson's designed patch set; 1728 does the job quite well. And then, if so desired, a post optimization using i1P which can make very subtle improvements or none at all.

Raises a question in my mind about what's changed since this discussion of some years ago: Profiling
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Doug Gray

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2018, 02:01:41 am »

Raises a question in my mind about what's changed since this discussion of some years ago: Profiling

I finally got my 9800 singing. It had the largest variation dE2k in the neutrals and near neutrals. I wound up making 4 sets of patches and that has yielded the best overall profile accuracy and went a long way to cleaning up the neutrals.

The 4 patch sets are each 957 count so they fit on a letter size iSis target. The consist of :

1. The original (default) iSis 957 patch target.
2. Two pages of patches (1914 count) generated from the I1P optimizer.
3. One page of patches along the neutral axis with a grid size of 37 and including all near neutrals. This was chosen to coincide exactly with the grid spacing of the high quality I1P profile setting.

These were rounded to 8 bits and combined into a single CGATs file 3828 in size or 4 iSis pages.

Here's a plot of printed then measured Lab values over a range of L=0 to L=100. Note the limits at L*=5 and 95 which are the paper's black and white points respectively.


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Mark D Segal

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2018, 08:35:42 am »

Singing indeed! That is an excellent outcome. Congrats. Have you tested it for colours yet?
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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Doug Gray

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2018, 11:30:34 am »

Singing indeed! That is an excellent outcome. Congrats. Have you tested it for colours yet?

It's been something of a struggle to get the neutrals tracking on my Epson 9800. Much less so than the Canon because of the way they mix CYM with the neutral inks. One can see this by measuring how the patch colors change when printing a target with just RGB values going from (0,0,0) to (255,255,255) w/o color management.

Much of the problem is from using DeltaE2000 v DeltaE1976. dE2k is far more sensitive to small hue and chromaticity changes near the neutrals and much less sensitive to changes in even moderately saturated colors. dE2k is a better metric to optimize because it more closely matches human vision sensitivity.

I did get better results by using the I1P target sets that Ethan's excellent post suggested, but the neutrals and near neutrals were still far enough apart that it only reduced some of the 9800's neutral variation.

So first I focused on using I1P's "optimize" process starting with the 957 default patch set to create an additional 1914 "optimized" patches. This did an excellent job improving accuracy of colored patches but had little effect on the near neutrals. After thinking about it a bit I made a set of neutral and near neutral patches that covered the entire space along the same grid spacing as the AtoB1 tables. This had patches at every position on the "neutrals" and near "neutrals" which are adjacent in the A2B1 tables. From this set I made a 957 patch, single iSis page, of these target RGB sets.

Then I just added this page to the original, iSis 1 page default set, and the color "Optimized" 2 page set to make a 3828 patch, 4 page profile target.

This resulted in a 4 page set of patches that produced not only excellent tracking in the neutrals, a real problem on the 9800, but also very good color accuracy of other, in gamut, colors.

Turns out the patch set is excellent for all glossy and semigloss type papers on the 9800.
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MHMG

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2018, 01:40:29 pm »


Much of the problem is from using DeltaE2000 v DeltaE1976. dE2k is far more sensitive to small hue and chromaticity changes near the neutrals and much less sensitive to changes in even moderately saturated colors. dE2k is a better metric to optimize because it more closely matches human vision sensitivity.


Really? In my experiments comparing dE1976 to dE2000, they both returned nearly identical response in neutrals/near neutrals. No real reason to move to dE2000 if one is concerned with neutral and low chroma color accuracy.  dE2K does lower the magnitude of the response in higher chroma colors, particularly in certain hues, but measurement of greyscale neutrality should not be any better or worse using de1976 versus de2K. That said, the perceptual "fudge factors" built into the dE2000 math were still designed to improve the scaling of human observed "perceptual magnitude" differences when comparing more vivid colors aligned 2-up side by side on a simple grey surround at a specific angular magnification (2 degree or 10 degree). De2K is therefore superior for simple color matching work like comparing paint or textile matches, but still not right for evaluating the color accuracy which is observed in complex color scenes like what we routinely see in prints, paintings, and photographs.
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Stephen Ray

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #14 on: April 10, 2018, 02:07:16 pm »

I finally got my 9800 singing.

Super.

How well do believe that particular profile would behave if you were to share it among the general population using the same printer / ink / media / settings combination?

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digitaldog

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2018, 02:49:21 pm »

Raises a question in my mind about what's changed since this discussion of some years ago: Profiling
Bills iteration and X-rite's are not the same for one.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2018, 04:40:16 pm »

Really? In my experiments comparing dE1976 to dE2000, they both returned nearly identical response in neutrals/near neutrals. No real reason to move to dE2000 if one is concerned with neutral and low chroma color accuracy.  dE2K does lower the magnitude of the response in higher chroma colors, particularly in certain hues, but measurement of greyscale neutrality should not be any better or worse using de1976 versus de2K. That said, the perceptual "fudge factors" built into the dE2000 math were still designed to improve the scaling of human observed "perceptual magnitude" differences when comparing more vivid colors aligned 2-up side by side on a simple grey surround at a specific angular magnification (2 degree or 10 degree). De2K is therefore superior for simple color matching work like comparing paint or textile matches, but still not right for evaluating the color accuracy which is observed in complex color scenes like what we routinely see in prints, paintings, and photographs.

dE2k is less affected at lower saturation levels than dE76 but can still be over 40% more sensitive. Especially to hue angle changes but is also more sensitive to saturation increases than dE76.

At higher saturations dE2k is certainly much less sensitive. There is about a 2x to 4x difference as saturation increases: See:

http://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=111560.msg921607#msg921607

As for how well any of these work in complex scenes as opposed to comparing two patches in a neutral surround, at best this is a multidimensional problem but the general consensus seems to be that as scenes become more complex color differences become less noticeable. Probably the most critical area for a dE metric is determining the threshold of visible banding around any color. I find dE2k, while certainly flawed, is better at it than dE76.

Black and white printing is less complex in many ways. And I've found dE2k to be considerably better than dE76 when characterizing how neutral black and white printed images appear. I can sometimes notice a dE2k shift of 1.5 in neutrals where it might only be a 1.0 dE76. And it is quite consistent with what dE2k is telling me about those differences.
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Doug Gray

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2018, 04:47:42 pm »

Super.

How well do believe that particular profile would behave if you were to share it among the general population using the same printer / ink / media / settings combination?

While I think it would be good, it's tailored to the 9800 and that prints darker targets than most current printers. The additional 'optimized" I1P patches are much lighter. Presumably to better cover the printable gamut.

I'm working on a generic target that is heavily optimized for the I1Profiler's LUT structure. It has full coverage for the neutrals and near neutrals as well as RGB values that align with the I1Profiler's A2B1 LUT structures when selecting highest quality.

It should be quite good for general profiling and especially profiles that are used for B&W or images that have a great deal of neutral and near neutral colors where vision is more sensitive to small changes.

I will post a CGATs file for importing into I1Profiler to create I1Pro targets as well as tiff files for printing iSis targets. This will be in a new thread shortly.

Update: I put CGATs, tiff files, and I1P chart format files (.txf) in a zip file at the end of a (too long) background post outlining the evolution of this, now generic, profile target on the Color Management Forum.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 07:33:52 pm by Doug Gray »
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Nickilford

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #18 on: April 11, 2018, 12:43:07 pm »

... use Canon's Print Studio Pro for printing these targets with No Color Controls selected in the Color Management section of Print Studio Pro...

Just about to redo the print target and since I usually use Adobe Color Printer Utility for printing targets I was wondering if using Canon's Print Studio Pro would make any difference for this purpose?
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Mark D Segal

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Re: Slight magenta cast on Canson Baryta Prestige - Canon Pro 4000
« Reply #19 on: April 11, 2018, 01:01:12 pm »

The reason why I recommended this is because I and others have come across issues using ACPU for printing profiling targets with this printer driver. It comes from a recommendation that Canon technical support made to me when I was testing the Canon Pro-2000 printer, and I found that their advice produced a reliable path through "no colour management" which is necessary for successful profiling. Nothing prevents you of course from trying either, or from using i1Profiler for that matter, and observing any differences in outcomes. Could be interesting - just more ink, paper and time.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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