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Author Topic: Is it time for Red Flag laws?  (Read 47870 times)

Damon Lynch

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #180 on: April 11, 2018, 10:41:16 am »

Just look at the history of the former Czechoslovakia.

I'm talking about the nonviolent direct action that Europeans took directly against the Nazis in Europe during WWII. Do any of you know anything about this topic? Anything at all?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #181 on: April 11, 2018, 10:43:17 am »

This blind belief in the truthfulness of academic research is outright scary. As I said many times, science is the new religion for some.

Who ever said "blind belief" other than you?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #182 on: April 11, 2018, 10:53:02 am »

I'm talking about the nonviolent direct action that Europeans took directly against the Nazis in Europe during WWII. Do any of you know anything about this topic? Anything at all?

Do enlighten us.

Otherwise, your posts remind me of the old joke:

A priest/imam/rabbi/ ask his faithfuls: "Do you know the story of the prophet X?"

The faithfuls: "No"

The priest: "Shame on you for not knowing it!"

Next time, he asks the same question: "Do you know the story of the prophet X?"

The faithfuls, cleverly answered: "Yes, of course!"

The priest: "Great! No need to tell you then."

A few weeks later, the same question: "Do you know the story of the prophet X?"

The faithfuls, even more clever this time: "Some of us do, some of us don't."

The priest: "Great! Those who do can then tell those who don't."
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 11:19:19 am by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #183 on: April 11, 2018, 11:01:55 am »

I'm talking about the nonviolent direct action that Europeans took directly against the Nazis in Europe during WWII. Do any of you know anything about this topic? Anything at all?

I read about some of those theories, specifically by George Paxton, but any such naive ideas have been proven wrong by history and many other scholars.

Quote
Michael C. Stratford argues that nonviolent national defence is unlikely to be effective against ruthless regimes such as Nazi Germany. Stratford has provided a valuable service in undertaking an examination of this issue. I agree with him that occasionally too much weight has been put on some of the successes of nonviolent action against the Nazis, such as the resistance of the Norwegian teachers.

http://www.bmartin.cc/pubs/87Nazis/
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Damon Lynch

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #184 on: April 11, 2018, 11:08:08 am »

I read about some of those theories, specifically by George Paxton, but any such naive ideas have been proven wrong by history and many other scholars.

But you don't know any actual, historic examples. You can't name them, what their tactics were. You cannot place them with the broader evolution of our collective understanding of how to most effectively topple ruthless dictatorships.

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Damon Lynch

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #185 on: April 11, 2018, 11:15:26 am »

On a personal level, all to which I can attest is this: on the day we left our home to go across the country to Bombay (where I spent a delightful six weeks or so having the then time of my life) to catch the ship back to Britain, our staff were, as were we, in tears.

On a personal level, have you ever visited the site of the notorious massacre at Amritsar? The Qissa Khawani Bazaar? Any such place?
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LesPalenik

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #186 on: April 11, 2018, 11:21:47 am »

But you don't know any actual, historic examples. You can't name them, what their tactics were. You cannot place them with the broader evolution of our collective understanding of how to most effectively topple ruthless dictatorships.
You should stop this nonsense while you can.
I don't know all the examples, but personally lost several of my close relatives who were killed by Nazis and know of many more.
I've seen with my own eyes a lime furnace in central Slovakia where over 900 innocent Jews, Romas, Slovaks, Czechs, Russians, and Romanians were burnt.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 11:55:41 am by LesPalenik »
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RSL

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #187 on: April 11, 2018, 11:25:44 am »

Gandhi led several hundred million of his people to freedom from the tyranny of British colonial rule. And you? Have you been to the places in India and Pakistan where the British gunned down hundreds of Indians at a time? Have you taken the time to research British colonial violence in the subcontinent? The millions who died of starvation? Do you know anything at all about the world's first nonviolent army, the Khudai Khidmatagars? Do you know anything their uniforms, their band, their training camps, their militant and civil wings, their oath? Do you know who led it?

Regarding the Nazis, share with us your knowledge about the nonviolence Europeans did undertake against Nazism, and analyze its effectiveness.  Can you even name a single example? Do you know anything about this topic? Or are you just sounding off with no intent of understanding how people actually do overthrow tyranny most effectively?

Damon, I suspect you're too young to have had a chance to compare your theories with reality. I see that you're 45. When I was 45 I was in Thailand, involved in my third war.

I see what you're reading, and I see that you're really impressed by credentials. I read different things and I'm not at all impressed by credentials, so there's a bit of a mismatch between our world views.

Gandhi led several million people to freedom by the sufferance of the British who, as Rob points out, were in no position to continue their presence in India, even though Churchill was appalled by the idea of leaving. Yes, I know all about colonial violence. I've been to three wars and I've observed the aftermath of it first-hand. How many wars have you been to, and how much "colonial violence" have you observed first-hand? Or is your take on these things all theory?

I was a kid delivering newspapers when WW II began. I was exposed daily to the truth about how likely it was that France would escape Nazi rule without violence. Do you actually believe the Nazis wouldn't have taken over all of Europe plus Britain had they not been met with more violence than they, themselves could produce? If so you really need to sit down and read the history of the whole thing rather than "research" by people who, sitting in their air-conditioned offices "researching," haven't a clue.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #188 on: April 11, 2018, 11:25:53 am »

But you don't know any actual, historic examples. You can't name them, what their tactics were...

Hey, I think I heard of one: the fearless Dutch Resistance fighters unscrewing air valves on German soldiers' bicycles. Counts?

LesPalenik

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #189 on: April 11, 2018, 11:36:06 am »

Hey, I think I heard of one: the fearless Dutch Resistance fighters unscrewing air valves on German soldiers' bicycles. Counts?

In that category, there were also Czechs who in the first days of Russian invasion took down the house numbers and street signs and painted over, removed, or changed around the road signs (except the ones which pointed the way back to Moscow).

Sadly, in the end, there was nothing for the government and the citizens of the Czechoslovak Socialist Republic to do but recognize the fact that Dubček‘s grand experiment in “socialism with a human face” was over, and that the occupation force was there to stay. So much for the non violent resistance.

http://extravaganzafreetour.com/the-prague-spring-and-the-soviet-invasion-of-1968/
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Damon Lynch

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #190 on: April 11, 2018, 12:59:51 pm »

I've been to three wars and I've observed the aftermath of it first-hand. How many wars have you been to, and how much "colonial violence" have you observed first-hand? Or is your take on these things all theory?

As part of my academic work I have been directly exposed to warlike violence. It's what I'm trained to do. That's what my professors do. I study how warlike violence affects people and what action they undertake to build peace. I have no idea why you think academics never leave their offices. I talk to everyone I can. People who kill. People who build peace. People who have done both. People who hate war, people who embrace it. People whose job it is to care for vets. Widows who've lost spouses, kids who lost their parents, etc.

I was a kid delivering newspapers when WW II began. I was exposed daily to the truth about how likely it was that France would escape Nazi rule without violence. Do you actually believe the Nazis wouldn't have taken over all of Europe plus Britain had they not been met with more violence than they, themselves could produce?

You are all convinced that nonviolence is total crap because of the Nazis and how brutal they were. You associate it with passivity, hopelessness, and weakness. Yet, know this:

The fact is, some Europeans did undertake successful nonviolent direct action against the Nazis. Ask a Dane about Arne Sejr, who as a 17 year old developed the "Danskerens 10 bud" (Ten Commandments for Danes). Do you know about him, what he did? Do you know what nonviolent actions the Danes took against the Nazis to fight back against the invasion of their country, and to save their Jews? Do you agree that the Danes were successful? In Germany itself, do you know about the Rosenstrasse women? Ruth Gross and her father? Do you know the reactions of Himmler, Goebbels and Hitler to these actions?

Do you know about Franz Jagerstatter? Maybe some of you do, as it's not a secret. But did you know the connection between him, Randy Kehler, and Daniel Ellsberg? Jagerstatter died an awful death. Pointless even. Yet his life and death had a direct impact on the American side of the Vietnam war, because he inspired Ellsberg, who learned about Jagerstatter from Kehler's scholarship. So in the end, Jagerstatter's life and death was far from pointless. Who could have possibly known at that time that his life would have that effect on an American war planner decades later.

In WWII, European understanding of nonviolent direct action was minimal. Europeans knew far more about waging war then they did about nonviolent resistance. Much has changed since then. We know much more now. There were no handbooks then, like Gene Sharp's "From dictatorship to democracy".

So to your question, would it have worked on a continent wide scale for people at that time, had they tried, with the limited knowledge that they had? And the answer is, we don't know, because it wasn't tried on a continent wide scale. No one knows. Maybe they simply didn't know enough to have a good shot at getting the job done. All we know for sure is that in relatively recent times (1990 onward), nonviolence is twice as effective as violence in achieving the strategic objectives of those doing it.

And we also know that in the same time period, many millions of people have been killed by combatants who are convinced that violence is the only way to achieve their ends. Five million in Congo. Almost a million in Rwanda. Who knows how many will die in Syria, in Yemen. The people waging those wars are convinced they are doing it for the best.

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Damon Lynch

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #191 on: April 11, 2018, 01:09:14 pm »

You should stop this nonsense while you can.
I don't know all the examples, but personally lost several of my close relatives who were killed by Nazis and know of many more.
I've seen with my own eyes a lime furnace in central Slovakia where over 900 innocent Jews, Romas, Slovaks, Czechs, Russians, and Romanians were burnt.

Ervin Staub, who survived the depredations of both the Nazis and the communists, has dedicated his life to understanding violence, genocide and what people do (and fail to do) to stop it. 

Henri Tajfel, also a Holocaust survivor, did incredible and deeply influential work on understanding the psychology behind the varieties of prejudice that ultimately lead to violence.

One can go on. I believe we should learn from what they are telling us. They have much to say.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #192 on: April 11, 2018, 01:24:39 pm »

If in the late thirties the western democracies had forcefully attacked Nazis right away instead of nonviolent and cowardly waiting, many millions of lives and properties would have been saved.
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RSL

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #193 on: April 11, 2018, 02:27:40 pm »

As part of my academic work I have been directly exposed to warlike violence. It's what I'm trained to do. That's what my professors do.

So your professors shoot at you? Blow you up? What? Please describe this "warlike violence."
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Rob C

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #194 on: April 11, 2018, 02:28:21 pm »

On a personal level, have you ever visited the site of the notorious massacre at Amritsar? The Qissa Khawani Bazaar? Any such place?


The greater question is this: what difference, either way, could that possibly make to anything today?

Being a tourist is just that: being a tourist. Unless you are in the place at the time of the event, all else is the political equivalent of photographic critique: second-guessing what you, anybody else should, could or would have done. It's all simply too late in the day to matter.

Coming down like an encyclopaedia is no guarantee of being right in the conclusion drawn, nor does it ensure a different perspective or superior course of action in the event of similar situations having to be met and resolved.

I often think back to the way kids act in the playground, where I have never seen the meek inherit anything more than a punch in the face. You truly believe there's a future for the adult meek to inherit something better and more productive? Have you run a business? Try being meek there, and you will starve. And business, believe it or not, is closer to reality than political posturing.

I wonder what the folks in the Gaza Strip would make of your doctrine... apart from telling you where to put it, that is.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 02:32:30 pm by Rob C »
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RSL

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #195 on: April 11, 2018, 02:34:53 pm »

If in the late thirties the western democracies had forcefully attacked Nazis right away instead of nonviolent and cowardly waiting, many millions of lives and properties would have been saved.

Quite right, Les. There's even some question whether or not a forceful attack would have been necessary. If the Western powers had worked together and made it clear they were ready to attack, there's a very good chance Hitler would have gone down before the attack even took place.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 02:45:09 pm by RSL »
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RSL

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #196 on: April 11, 2018, 03:20:07 pm »

You are all convinced that nonviolence is total crap because of the Nazis and how brutal they were. You associate it with passivity, hopelessness, and weakness.

Which poster(s) do you think are convinced nonviolence is total crap? I haven't seen any posts to that effect. Maybe I just missed them.

But what about you? Do you believe there are times when violence is essential, or is that "total crap?"
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #197 on: April 11, 2018, 04:19:10 pm »

If in the late thirties the western democracies had forcefully attacked Nazis right away instead of nonviolent and cowardly waiting, many millions of lives and properties would have been saved.

Easy to say now, but if in 1935 some guy had assassinated Hitler, do you think he'd be hailed as a hero now? He'd have been tried for murder, convicted and likely killed, assuming they had the death penalty at the time and no one would remember his name. But I take your point that by 1938-1939, people should have known what was coming. But maybe it would have been better to see what was coming a decade earlier and nipped the problem in the bud.

That kind of conjecture works the other way too. How many lives would have been saved on all sides if the US had stayed out of Vietnam?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #198 on: April 11, 2018, 04:24:51 pm »

Ahmmm...

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Is it time for Red Flag laws?
« Reply #199 on: April 11, 2018, 04:25:57 pm »

If in the late thirties the western democracies had forcefully attacked Nazis right away instead of nonviolent and cowardly waiting, many millions of lives and properties would have been saved.

Forgot to add.

If I remember correctly, lots of powers-that-be in the west didn't have that big a problem with what Hitler was instituting. Let's not paint the west as holier than it actually was.
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