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Author Topic: How to manage my eyes!  (Read 1498 times)

David Eckels

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How to manage my eyes!
« on: April 02, 2018, 12:37:33 PM »

I worked on the top image all day yesterday and was pretty pleased with the outcome. These included minimal adjustments in LR then moving to PS and using mostly curves and masking etc with a final step using a color balance layer. When I opened the file in my LR catalog this AM, GAGH!, there was this awful garish green tone that I COULD NOT SEE when I was finishing it yesterday. With fresh eyes this AM, I adjusted three LR sliders: Overall tint to +35 magenta, Hue yellow to -20 orangish, and Hue green to -100 yellow. These not so subtle adjustments look much better to me now; we'll see in a couple hours.

My question for the group is: What tricks do you use to avoid being deceived about subtle color shifts as you do your PP?

I finished reading Margaret Livingstone's book, Vision and Art the Biology of Seeing, and learned that photoreceptor pigments can be depleted so I guess my experience this AM could provide a potential example. Thanks in advance.

digitaldog

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2018, 12:46:14 PM »

First, always view images for 'accurate' color and one only in Develop module and only at 1:1 or greater. The other modules use a different preview architecture.
Next, the preview in LR and PS should match. Try testing other (flattened) images in both, also viewing at 100% in Photoshop to ensure they do match. If not, there are several possibilities including the creation of a V4 display profile instead of V2, perhaps issues with GPU settings etc. But first, do you see a match between LR and PS using say this image?
http://www.digitaldog.net/files/2014PrinterTestFileFlat.tif.zip

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Andrew Rodney
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John Nollendorfs

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2018, 01:14:01 PM »

As much as we would like our viewing screens to perfectly match our prints, it's very easy to be fooled. Monitors are transmissive lighting, prints are reflected lighting. I always print out a test print or strip, before making large prints, viewing them under the lighting they will be viewed under.
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TonyW

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2018, 01:25:26 PM »

Is it possible you have already answered this? 

You work on an image for a considerable length of time and your vision adapts to ignore a particular cast.

The answer may be as simple as to rest your eyes, walk away before committing to print or finished image.
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David Eckels

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2018, 01:43:55 PM »

But first, do you see a match between LR and PS...
Thanks, Andrew, the images do match between LR and PS, that's not the problem. It is that my eyes had adapted to the greenish cast and I was surprised I couldn't see it until much later.
Is it possible you have already answered this?
I think you have hit it right on. Rest my eyes for sure, but any other tips? How long is enough? I guess I was surprised to see such accomodation in my vision.

digitaldog

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2018, 01:49:02 PM »

Thanks, Andrew, the images do match between LR and PS, that's not the problem. It is that my eyes had adapted to the greenish cast and I was surprised I couldn't see it until much later.I think you have hit it right on. Rest my eyes for sure, but any other tips? How long is enough? I guess I was surprised to see such accomodation in my vision.
Good to know the two match and that's not an issue. I'd consider a few minutes away from the display, shouldn't take very long for your eyes to re-adjust. 5-10 minutes in very dark conditions which isn't really what you're viewing on an emissive display. Also, consider what are known as 'memory' colors like sky, skin tones, green grass etc; maybe have such an image around to view from time to time to examine of they appear 'off'. But this is a very complex set of phenomena that really isn't fully understood. Even what you've had to eat or drink can affect all this.
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Andrew Rodney
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elliot_n

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2018, 01:50:59 PM »

It is often useful to open up previously completed images to compare. But nothing beats sleeping on it.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2018, 02:41:25 PM »

But, but... I thought you LIKE cyan-ish sky? ;)

On a serious note, how about painting the walls where you post process neutral gray? That way, you can rest your eyes without the color cast.

P.S. Just don't let your wife catch you staring into the wall for a prolonged period of time, or you might end up in a room with white, padded walls ;)
« Last Edit: April 02, 2018, 04:01:36 PM by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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smthopr

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2018, 03:35:49 PM »

In addition to photoshop, I also do color correction for movies.  Viewing the sequence on a calibrated display in a dark room one can start to "neutralize" the colors and as one continues in the image sequence, start to drift from the original color balance.

But there are a few tricks:

1. for movies, I tend to compare the later shots in the sequence to the first shot in the sequence, and also to the previous scene to keep consistency.  In photoshop one could have a "reference" image open in photoshop, and from time to time, switch back to looking at that image.  It could be a small jpeg, just for screen viewing.

2. Don't work in a completely dark room.  Have a "bias light" illuminating the wall behind your display set to be close to the color temp of your calibrated display.  (I'm assuming a white wall, but you could also paint it a neutral gray).  Another trick I use here is to open my calibrated laptop screen to display a white screen and place it behind and near my computer display.  This serves as a constant reference to D65.

3. Don't have bias light or a laptop handy?  Every once and a while make your photo small on your display in photoshop and set the photoshop GUI background to white.  When viewing your photograph against the calibrated white reference, you'll get your eyes back on track.  Also this helps to keep to your perspective for printing (as if viewing your print in a white matted frame) and helps one not get seduced by the emissive display and make your images too dark for a good print.

4. An old timers movie colorists trick is to once in a while view your image in greyscale for a few minutes to keep your sense of color from drifting.

And one last thing that I do is to always make my conversion from RAW a little bit low in contrast, and maybe saturation.  Then, once I'm working in Photoshop, I can adjust the image to any look without needing to go back to camera RAW (or lightroom) again.  But, for me, to paraphrase Ansel Adams... RAW conversion is the score and photoshop is the performance :)

Hope someone finds this helpful :)
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TonyW

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2018, 03:44:04 PM »

.... Rest my eyes for sure, but any other tips? How long is enough? I guess I was surprised to see such accommodation in my vision.
Looking at a known reference image should help particularly with neutrals, having a neutral screen background to concentrate on may help.  Hopefully, it should only take a few minutes to get back to normal.

As Andrew said this is quite a complex phenomena and I confess I do not really understand it but at least I am aware of the gotchas (well some!) and try and remember to compensate by resting when editing in a long session.  FWIW I first became aware of it in the good old analogue days (?).  Visiting many high volume processing labs (think in terms of thousands of films per week or even per day!) and watching the ladies on QA examining the prints before cutting and sending out to customers.  They worked on prints on a roll which were rapidly wound on to a take up roll.  Too rapid for the eye to evaluate the image but they could pick out images where colour cast and density a problem stop the roll and either mark for deletion or allow to pass.  It was quite surprising to me to see how quickly our eyes could adapt to an off colour and accept it as normal.

You may be interested in these
https://www.xrite.com/blog/color-perception-part-3

http://www.scifun.ed.ac.uk/pages/about_us/shows_adaptation.html
This one I really like to see what happens to the B&W images (juvenile I know  :D)

...

On a serious note, how about painting the walls where you post process neutral gray? That way, you can rest your eyes without the color cast.
I have an understanding wife who has allowed this (two shades of neutral'ish grey).  Helped by the fact that grey seems to be an 'in colour'  ;)

Quote
P.S. Just don't let you wife catch you staring into the wall for a prolonged period of time, or you might end up in a room with white, padded walls ;)
White padded walls are ideal to neutralise colour adaption.  Its just the long sleeve jacket they strap you into that gets in the way of editing  >:(
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David Eckels

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2018, 04:13:26 PM »

But, but... I thought you LIKE cyan-ish sky? ;)
I thought of you when I posted this Slobodan. You were seeing a fresh image, whereas my eyes were tired. At least there may be an explanation!
how about painting the walls where you post process neutral gray?
At least the wall behind the monitor. Currently it is a pinkish beige.
Hope someone finds this helpful :)
Very helpful. Thanks.
juvenile I know  :D
Great fun, juvenile is OK ;)

nirpat89

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2018, 04:51:00 PM »

My 2 cents:

1.  I always do the color first thing - in Camera Raw (don't do LR) to put it in the ball park at least so any major color cast does not get multiplied with subsequent post-processing.

2.  When in doubt, I don't trust my eyes.  I always find an object that is supposed to be neutral and use an eye-dropper to set the gray point.  In your photograph, perhaps that would have been parts of the tree stump or may be the background rocks.  The second image, by the way, looks to have a bluish tint now, to my eyes, specially evident in the tree stump.  Some of it may be light from the sky, perhaps no so much though.

Nice picture!

:Niranjan.
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Rand47

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2018, 06:36:44 PM »

Is it possible you have already answered this? 

You work on an image for a considerable length of time and your vision adapts to ignore a particular cast.

The answer may be as simple as to rest your eyes, walk away before committing to print or finished image.

Yup... this is my experience. And also to just stop and ask myself what I’m really seeing!

Assuming, of course, a proper monitor, calibration, etc. as prerequisite.

Rand
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Doug Gray

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2018, 07:48:14 PM »

There is a ton of info on this under the phrase "Color Appearance Model" Google this for much more detail.

It's been an active area of investigation for decades. The most recent "Model" is CIE's CAM02 from 2002 which is an update from 1997's.

There are physiological, intermediate neural, and purely cognitive things at work that change color perception. Check out display v hard copy and "illuminant discount."  The latter is a big factor and largely cognitive.
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Two23

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2018, 10:28:08 PM »

I

My question for the group is: What tricks do you use to avoid being deceived about subtle color shifts as you do your PP?



THIS:
http://xritephoto.com/colorchecker-passport-photo

I started using it for wedding photos, but found it useful for all other kinds of photos as well. :)


Kent in SD
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Tim Lookingbill

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Re: How to manage my eyes!
« Reply #15 on: April 03, 2018, 03:55:39 PM »

With mixed outdoor white balance with shade against rocks lit by the sun low in the sky much like the OP's sample image I constantly ask myself how much magenta is in blue that tints gray rocks in skylight shade. Slobodan hinted at this with the cyan sky comment which tells you there's too much green in the white balance.

Also there are camera profiles that will alter warm hues of sunlit stone or white clouds with either a yellowish vs orange tint. Adobe Standard does this quite a bit with my camera in scenes similar to the OP's sample.
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