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Author Topic: Anyone been scared off by terms and coniditions?  (Read 1298 times)

kevs

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Anyone been scared off by terms and coniditions?
« on: March 23, 2018, 03:38:09 PM »

Has anyone had a client scared off by terms and conditions? This was a first for me... just the boilerplate apa/ or asmp one...
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tcphoto1

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Re: Anyone been scared off by terms and coniditions?
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2018, 10:23:20 AM »

I found early in my career that people did not want to be hit by a two page estimate including terms and conditions. I pared it down to one page including a description of images, fees, terms, licensing and delivery. In twenty five years, it seems to work for me and my clients but I'm always ready to hear about a better way.
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kevs

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Re: Anyone been scared off by terms and coniditions?
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2018, 03:15:38 PM »

Thanks TC good post, but I don't think it was length.. this person/ company, I think any TC... would have spooked them... yet very rare a company doestn't understand this is boilerplate stuff that I did not write,  and can me amended; so that was frustrating. Now for consumers, I don't send TC, but this was a company so it was odd.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Anyone been scared off by terms and coniditions?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2018, 09:23:05 AM »

I work with primarily two different types of clients, client direct firms, meaning they hire me directly (bread and butter type clients), and advertising firms. 

With the client direct firms, I try to keep my estimates to 2 to 3 pages, most of which is just describing the project, images to be captured, showing the numbers, a client testimonial or two, etc.  I do have a 2/3 page of terms and conditions that partly say I own the copyright and that they will be licensing the images from me for usage, but I don't really go to far into discussing licensing.  This is something that most clients don't understand and look at as a negative.  Plus, most really just use the images for collateral marketing.  Advertising is expensive, and if they could afford it, they more then likely would be using an ad firm too. 

Occasionally some will say that they want to own the images outright, which I refuse.  (Often with architectural work, the contractor or interior design, or another firm involved with the project, will want to use the images too, which I charge for and make more money on.  So handing over the copyright would prevent me from doing this.)  Half the time they hire me anyway, and the other half the time they don't.  At this point in my career, I have enough work were I really don't care anymore about loosing a potential client like this, which would be a bad client anyway. 

With ad firms it's different.  Here my estimates are anywhere from 4 to 10 pages in length and I really start getting into the nitty gritty.  These estimate are at least $10K per day of shooting.  I recently submitted a $225K 7 day shoot; I don't think it is going to happen though  :(.  Most of that fee, about 70%, are out of pocket costs on my end, so I make sure the terms are tight.  I also get into talking more about usage and licensing, which ad firms understand very well too.  Additionally, I list client responsibilities so everyone knows what they need to do.  I ask for a 50% retainer 10 business days prior to the shoot, and put in a 100% kill fee at 5 business days prior to the shoot. 

With client direct firms I more likely to negotiate my terms; with ad firms there is just too much on the line for me and I am less likely to do so, especially with the retainer and kill fee. 

Also, I have noticed that clients now are more likely to be okay with my terms then they were when I just started out.  I chalk this up to the fact that my skill level is much higher now.  Often I get people hiring me who are paying more then double what they did someone else and sign on the line without ever thinking about the T&Cs.  So I think part of it has to do with your skill level too and how much better you are then others in your field. 
« Last Edit: April 03, 2018, 01:25:16 PM by JoeKitchen »
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Joe Kitchen
www.josephmkitchen.com

"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent moving furniture."  Arnold Newman
“Don't bother just to be better than your contemporaries or predecessors. Try to be better than yourself.”  William Faulkner

kevs

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Re: Anyone been scared off by terms and coniditions?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2018, 04:15:39 PM »

Thanks Joe, well this client was a company, not big, but they were even scared off by the boilerplate 2-3 pages APA/ ASMP terms...
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douglevy

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Re: Anyone been scared off by terms and coniditions?
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2018, 05:02:58 PM »

Just echoing what Joe said. How he does things/runs things are almost identical to my experience and business. I get about half the jobs I bid, and that's fine.

kevs

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Re: Anyone been scared off by terms and coniditions?
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2018, 06:48:15 PM »

Thanks Joe/ Doug, nice info here.
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