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Author Topic: DSLR testing sites like DXOmark and Imaging Resource use HMI and LEDs for color  (Read 56124 times)

Tim Lookingbill

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The thing is - I need nothing of this. I already built my lighting systems (not one)and it works. I was merely responding here to the statement that LED lighting is rubbish - it is not and provided the reference. The technical bits came out after people were asking questions.  It is completely fine with me not to answer any of those so I will stop from now on.

Can you post an unedited photo shot of a scene having a wide variety of colored objects lit by your DIY Yuji lights? And if you have to edit, just mention them. Please include a Cadmium Yellow colored object. If you don't know what that looks like, Google it. That color is dominant in a lot of artist's paints and paintings especially sunsets.

Lemon Yellow ruins the effect and in digital photos of sunsets indicates clipping in one or more channels.
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Can you post an unedited photo shot of a scene having a wide variety of colored objects lit by your DIY Yuji lights?

Nop sorry. My current lighting system is inside spectral measurements device.  Eventually (when I build next one) I can do that for something like Color Checker DC.
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Tim Lookingbill

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Nop sorry. My current lighting system is inside spectral measurements device.  Eventually (when I build next one) I can do that for something like Color Checker DC.

I take it then you didn't even bother to read the original OP which I'll quote...

Quote
The DXOmark use a LED lightbox, the Imaging Resource HMI bulbs for the "skylight" component in the "sunlit" tests, which IMO renders the results invalid and defies the purpose  of the color accuracy measurement. Any peaky spectrum is a NO-NO in my book no matter the CRI score.
What do you guys think?

So basically you've been off topic from the get go. I thought your Yuji lights were for lighting scenes similar to the LED lightbox mentioned in the OP.
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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I take it then you didn't even bother to read the original OP which I'll quote...

So basically you've been off topic from the get go. I thought your Yuji lights were for lighting scenes similar to the LED lightbox mentioned in the OP.

And you came to this conclusion how exactly? 
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Tim Lookingbill

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And you came to this conclusion how exactly?

Your Yuji lights are inside measuring instruments. So you took DXOmark and Imaging Resource as using measuring instruments that use spikey illuminant to light what to test and judge DSLR reproduction of color?

What are these two online sites testing using LED/HMI lights? Maybe you don't even read the title of the OP.
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Your Yuji lights are inside measuring instruments. So you took DXOmark and Imaging Resource as using measuring instruments that use spikey illuminant to light what to test and judge DSLR reproduction of color?
Have you even read my replies to OP? Or you just inventing things as you go along?

Anyway - my last attempt to put some reason into all that.

OP has asked essentially this (question in bold):

The DXOmark use a LED lightbox, the Imaging Resource HMI bulbs for the "skylight" component in the "sunlit" tests, which IMO renders the results invalid and defies the purpose  of the color accuracy measurement. Any peaky spectrum is a NO-NO in my book no matter the CRI score.
What do you guys think?


To which my answer was that LEDs (referenced here as one of the light sources using high CRI I presume as one of their characteristics) should not be dismissed because there are so many varieties now. Then later I posted a spectral reference for Yuji LED lights that I have used in my spectral measurements apparatus. I have made no claims whatsoever regarding the quality of equipment DXO or IR are using or relation of Yuji to them.

Now that was in March when my LED light was still being developed so I was able to test it out of the box. I don't just spend time handing on these forums so since March I have built and tested that so these are now installed inside my apparatus (it was referenced in dcamprof thread here if you don't know what I am referring to) - to take them out means I will have to disassemble all again. And frankly I have no idea what me shooting random scene and providing raw file will actually give you (you may or may not have the camera I have, have no spectral responses for my sensor and no profiles built for it with Yuji lights) so to me taking what I have done so far apart to satisfy just your curiosity seems an exercise in futility. As I said, if anyone will need a reference I will do so later when I build enhanced version of my board with the lights and will provide the CC DC shot under them.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 08:30:20 am by Alexey.Danilchenko »
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WayneLarmon

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I have no instruments to measure CRI. Like you I'm interested in very good reproduction of color appearance in a controlled lighting environment (studio work) where I can shoot a scene containing a wide variety of artificially and naturally colored objects lit under these "Daylight" balanced LED bulbs and do the least amount of editing in order to develop a turnkey process. So far it's not possible but some of these LED lights get pretty close excluding metameric failure of the object being photographed.

I haven't tested this on artist's paints which might have the potential for metameric failure no amount of spectrally accurate light will fix. Most of the subjects lit by these daylight light bulbs photograph well enough but do require HSL/White Balance and some SplitTone edits (including some Adjustment Brush work) in ACR to get it to look right but then that's not a turnkey process and not very efficient.

I really don't need instruments to tell me when something doesn't look right. It really doesn't make any sense since I have to edit every image I shoot anyway even lit by the sun. But what I've seen, your 80 CRI measurements seem in the ballpark but I'ld favor maybe a bit under 90. But I don't have any visual to relate the scaling of the numbers to color appearance matching so I don't find any use in measuring instruments.

I'm also trying to find the value of measuring instruments.  I just bought and measured a Walmart daylight LED


75w (equiv.) Walmart Great Value daylight LED 1100 lumens (less than $4 from Walmart)

And to recap


Cree 100w (equiv.) daylight bulb 1600 lumens (about $9.60 from Home Depot)


Aputure Amaran AL-H198 approx. 2000 lumens (About $58 from B&H)

We've already seen prices and lumen output from the DIY Yuji LEDs.

I displayed the above plots in order of (supposedly) increasing color rendering accuracy.  But how does the measured rating correlate with real world color rendering?  Tim, you said that you found the Cree LEDs to be about the same as the Walmart LEDs.  But the Cree LEDs measure a lot better.  The H198s measure even better (and are available pre-assembled from B&H.)

The whole reason I bought ColorMeter and my ColorMunki was to test lights to see which affordable ones had the best color rendering.  I was excited when I measured the Cree LEDs several weeks ago because I thought that finally bulbs from Home Depot were close enough to "good" (TLCI of almost 97) so they could be used to light art with minimal compromise.  But you are reporting otherwise.

So I remain bewildered.

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WayneLarmon

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I have gotten shocked working on simple AC electronic components in my youth. That cured me of ever attempting a DIY project involving AC wiring no matter how simple it may appear. It just makes me nervous.

The power supplies that Alexey has recommended are preassembled. Any AC is hidden inside the power supply.  The only voltage you'd be exposed to is 24 volts DC. 

I attempt to sidestep any problems by always having the power supply plugged into an outlet strip with a pilot light and switch and keeping the outlet strip turned off while I'm wiring.  I only turn the outlet strip on when I'm done wiring.

As I said earlier, I'm not worried about being electrocuted (because the AC is hidden inside the power supplies), I'm worried about thermal runaway (meaning that the LEDs self destruct, which is a concern when the LEDs in question cost several hundred dollars.)

Fabrication is also a concern.  After thinking about it some, fabrication using the led modules (panels) and Yuji power supplies would be easiest.  Assuming that the LED modules don't run too hot, they could be mounted on white foam core board and then suspend the foam core the same way that scrims are suspended.  And have additional real scrims in front of them for diffusion.  If the panels run too hot to mount on foam core, then use Masonite that is painted white and use more clamps and light stands.  The power supplies could be mounted on the light stand and use some kind of plug and socket to connect the power supplies to the LED panels.

Fabricating a workable enclosure for COB LEDs mounted on heavy heat sinks sounds more difficult.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 04:48:01 pm by WayneLarmon »
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Fabrication is also a concern.  After thinking about it some, fabrication using the led modules (panels) would be easiest.  Assuming that they don't run too hot, they could be mounted on white foam core board and then suspend them like scrims.  And have additional real scrims in front of them for diffusion.  If they run too hot to mount on foam core, then use Masonite that is painted white and use more clamps and light stands.  The power supplies could be mounted on the light stand and use some kind of plug and socket to connect the power supplies to the LED panels.
What type of lighting are you constructing? Perhaps that is starting point for the selection? The light size, power, uniformity?

The COBs as I said are the easiest to assemble but they are powerful point (9mm diameter of light emitting surface) light source so if light panel is needed then something like this or this for mounting would keep them cool. And the diffuser in front.

Panels in most cases just need aluminium backing but should be ok as is (they usually contain a set of low powered LEDs).

I needed a point light source for my application so mounted 4 COBs adjacent to each other on CPU heatsink with reflector (see attachment).



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Tim Lookingbill

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I'm also trying to find the value of measuring instruments.  I just bought and measured a Walmart daylight LED

75w (equiv.) Walmart Great Value daylight LED 1100 lumens (less than $4 from Walmart)

And to recap

We've already seen prices and lumen output from the DIY Yuji LEDs.

I displayed the above plots in order of (supposedly) increasing color rendering accuracy.  But how does the measured rating correlate with real world color rendering?  Tim, you said that you found the Cree LEDs to be about the same as the Walmart LEDs.  But the Cree LEDs measure a lot better.  The H198s measure even better (and are available pre-assembled from B&H.)

The whole reason I bought ColorMeter and my ColorMunki was to test lights to see which affordable ones had the best color rendering.  I was excited when I measured the Cree LEDs several weeks ago because I thought that finally bulbs from Home Depot were close enough to "good" (TLCI of almost 97) so they could be used to light art with minimal compromise.  But you are reporting otherwise.

So I remain bewildered.


Would you be less bewildered with the idea that the accuracy of light measuring instruments seems to be related to how much they cost?

I mean my LG LED display was calibrated at the factory by $10,000 Minolta Color Analyzer. What makes it more expensive than the equipment you used to measure those bulbs which I'm assuming costs far less? Could it be it's more accurate at defining D50 which as I've said about shooting quite a few daylight scenes there is a prominent fuchsia/magenta component in actual daylight that flash tries to emulate with mercury content.

Last night I gave the Crees a second look and they're worse than the Walmart 60w. And now I'll post how it renders red, blue and cadmium yellow against 5PM direct sunlight outside my apartment.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:06:56 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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Tim Lookingbill

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And this is how the Cree renders color by clicking for R=G=B on the WhiBaL Gray area...
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 07:22:07 pm by Tim Lookingbill »
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Tim Lookingbill

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Oops! I've never seen this happen with these types of bulbs but the Cree is shifting in color temp hue to less green and more toward slight orange the longer I leave it on. My camera's AWB  recorded the first color temp in ACR as 4350/tint +22.

From the time I posted the first shot to now my camera's AWB records it as 4500/tint +11. See below how far it drifted away from green.
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WayneLarmon

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What type of lighting are you constructing? Perhaps that is starting point for the selection? The light size, power, uniformity?

Ideally, a pair of fixtures like the DT Photons for copy stand work (large documents, camera scanning) and a pair of DT Photon XLs for lighting artwork.  Both from Digital Transitions.  (In my dreams.)

But in the real world I've been making do with hardware store clamp fixtures and hardware store bulbs (first "full spectrum" CFLs and now "high CRI" LED bulbs).  When shooting art I use cross polarization which sucks up a lot of light.  I need about 600 watts (equiv.) to keep shutter speeds in the one or two second range when shooting base ISO.    Six clamp fixtures (5 inch reflectors) give me enough uniformity for my standards.

The Aputure Amaran AL-H198s is my venture into high end lighting (at $58.00 ea.)  I gave the ColorMeter test results for the H198s in my response to Tim, above.

Quote
The COBs as I said are the easiest to assemble but they are powerful point (9mm diameter of light emitting surface) light source so if light panel is needed then something like this or this for mounting would keep them cool. And the diffuser in front.

I looked at those videos and also related ones that Youtube offered.  That involves a lot of heavy duty metal work with the heat sinks.  (Also I figured out what "grow lights" are usually used for.  Apparently not for growing roses.)

Quote
Panels in most cases just need aluminium backing but should be ok as is (they usually contain a set of low powered LEDs).

Aluminum backing?  Do you mean heat sinks?

Quote
I needed a point light source for my application so mounted 4 COBs adjacent to each other on CPU heatsink with reflector (see attachment).

For Spectron?

Which is really cool but is a different use case than mine.
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digitaldog

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I mean my LG LED display was calibrated at the factory by $10,000 Minolta Color Analyzer. What makes it more expensive than the equipment you used to measure those bulbs which I'm assuming costs far less?
What color analyzer, measuring device are you using?
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WayneLarmon

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Would you be less bewildered with the idea that the accuracy of light measuring instruments seems to be related to how much they cost?

I mean my LG LED display was calibrated at the factory by $10,000 Minolta Color Analyzer. What makes it more expensive than the equipment you used to measure those bulbs which I'm assuming costs far less?

I'm using a ColorMunki spectrophotometer that is similar to this one with ArgyllPro ColorMeter  The absolute accuracy is less than with more expensive instruments, but I'm confident that the relative measurements are reasonably accurate.  i.e., when I measure a bulb as having a CRI of (say) 83, that its CRI is close to 83.  When I measure a TLCI of 97, the real TLCI is close to 97.  The spectral plots I display may vary from what more expensive instruments give, but the shapes are approximately accurate.

If I am incorrect with my assumptions, will somebody please correct me!

I am not bewildered at the results of my measurements.  I'm bewildered at the lack of correlation between the measurements and the color rendering that you are reporting.

The Cree bulbs repeatedly measure a TLCI close to 97.  If a TLCI of 97 means extremely bad color rendering, then something is wrong.

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digitaldog

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If I am incorrect with my assumptions, will somebody please correct me!
Not incorrect. I suspect differing software products may report CRI a bit differently but far better than someone posting images from a camera and reporting what the camera states for CCT Kelvin. Nearly useless.
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Tim Lookingbill

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I'm using a ColorMunki spectrophotometer that is similar to this one with ArgyllPro ColorMeter  The absolute accuracy is less than with more expensive instruments, but I'm confident that the relative measurements are reasonably accurate.  i.e., when I measure a bulb as having a CRI of (say) 83, that its CRI is close to 83.  When I measure a TLCI of 97, the real TLCI is close to 97.  The spectral plots I display may vary from what more expensive instruments give, but the shapes are approximately accurate.

If I am incorrect with my assumptions, will somebody please correct me!

I am not bewildered at the results of my measurements.  I'm bewildered at the lack of correlation between the measurements and the color rendering that you are reporting.

The Cree bulbs repeatedly measure a TLCI close to 97.  If a TLCI of 97 means extremely bad color rendering, then something is wrong.

I'm not knocking your instrument's accuracy. I have the same question you do about what the numbers mean to what I'm suppose to see. To cut to the chase do you see the Crees color of white (greenish to orangish yellow) to be the same as I've posted in my images?

If your Crees are showing you perfectly neutral colorless white light viewing a spectrally flat gray target then either your eyes or my eyes are playing tricks on us or the Crees have quality control issues in maintaining consistency bulb to bulb in rendering neutral white light or the measuring instruments are not that sensitive.

I have two Hyperikon LED floods that are rated at 5000K. One has the greenish yellow tint and the other a more neutral blueviolet tint which my camera's AWB shows an ACR tint slider in the minus (greenish) region meaning it sees the magenta pink portion of violet. The camera is seeing what my eyes are seeing. My eyes know when it is seeing something that looks neutral and when it is not.

What and how does a measuring instrument define neutrality if they're going to assess the same same number to two different tints of white lights?

What accuracy measurement number does one apply to tell us which bulb is the most accurate to daylight?
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Alexey.Danilchenko

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Ideally, a pair of fixtures like the DT Photons for copy stand work (large documents, camera scanning) and a pair of DT Photon XLs for lighting artwork.  Both from Digital Transitions.  (In my dreams.)
Ok - so rectangular flat panels. The easiest then would be to start with the panelled LEDs (the ones you have been looking at) and perhaps DC (constant voltage) power supply. That will be straightforward to connect. Then after mounting it on some backing panel in the case with diffuser, you can run them in for some time, monitoring temperature and doing periodic measurements to monitor for thermal/current related colour shifts and whether they are within your tolerance levels. If they are then you may be perfectly happy with just DC power supply. The constant current approach is not going to work with the panels (due to the ways the soldered) or strips.

In case of Yuji - their panels are MCPCB (metal core boards) so they do have better heat dissipation that normal PCB and you may not need any heatsink installed.

Those Yuji panels by my calculations contain 21 LED in each strip: 3 parallel strings of 7 LEDs in series with resistor(s) each. Incidentally the panel's single strip specification is shared on that very page (dimensions current etc).

But in the real world I've been making do with hardware store clamp fixtures and hardware store bulbs (first "full spectrum" CFLs and now "high CRI" LED bulbs).  When shooting art I use cross polarization which sucks up a lot of light.  I need about 600 watts (equiv.) to keep shutter speeds in the one or two second range when shooting base ISO.    Six clamp fixtures (5 inch reflectors) give me enough uniformity for my standards.

That powerful lighting may need to consider COBs - only they will give you that light density in a relatively compact package. But as you know that means fiddling with heatsinks and backing and perhaps even adding active cooling (fans).

I looked at those videos and also related ones that Youtube offered.  That involves a lot of heavy duty metal work with the heat sinks.  (Also I figured out what "grow lights" are usually used for.  Apparently not for growing roses.)

Orchids from what I looked at. Some of those videos go through more complex setups (multicoloured LEDs etc) but in essence it is simple. Finding the metal backing, drilling a pair of wholes for each COB fixture (if you attach them mechanically with connectors), add thermal paste and fasten the COBs with connectors. Then on the back of the metal panel all extra heatsinks or fans if needed. There is alternative approach of course and that is why I posted a photo of my setup - no COBs are screwed to radiator there at all and no holes are drilled.

Aluminum backing?  Do you mean heat sinks?

I mean aluminium extruded strip designed to hold LEDs (those are frequently used in kitchen lightings). But those are for long and narrow strip mountings usually.

For Spectron?

Which is really cool but is a different use case than mine.

Again I posted those not as something you should do but as example of fairly easy  and compact package giving me 2400lm light source with fairly good heat dissipation and not a lot of mechanical work. I put 4 COBs on thermal glue (flexible one that expands and contracts) on a heatsink, soldered their inner bits with small wires (so they connected in series). Then  cut out the board to the radiator size (used the single sided PCB board material) with the square inside to go around LEDs and attached metal pins to the board (soldered but could be glued or screwed) that aligned with the LED contacts. Those go off the board as wires to the power supply. The board simply sits on top of the LEDs screwed to the heatsink. Took me about couple of hours to do the prototype (mainly to cut square hole). What you see on a photo is the same board fabricated  on one of the PCB services (mainly because I like things neat and tidy) but it worked fine with just what I described.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 08:35:29 am by Alexey.Danilchenko »
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digitaldog

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I'm not knocking your instrument's accuracy.
At least he has an instrument that's actually designed to measure an illuminant, seems you don't. You were asked FWIW.
At least you can't knock someone using the right tool for the right job. That fellow is under no obligation not to knock someone for discussing CCT and CRI values with a fellow who has no such equipment or understanding on how to produce such measurements or values.  ::)



"I often say that when you can measure what you are speaking about, and express it in numbers, you know something about it; but when you cannot measure it, when you cannot express it in numbers, your knowledge is of a meagre and unsatisfactory kind".
-Lord Kelvin
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 01:11:07 pm by andrewrodney »
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sandymc

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As I said earlier, I'm not worried about being electrocuted (because the AC is hidden inside the power supplies), I'm worried about thermal runaway (meaning that the LEDs self destruct, which is a concern when the LEDs in question cost several hundred dollars.)

There is no (as in zero) chance of thermal runaway if you're using the modules and you stick to wiring them in parallel. That's what the resistors built into them are for. If you want to work with the LEDs directly, then, as mentioned above, you need specialist knowledge and equipment.
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