Pages: [1] 2   Go Down

Author Topic: Linear Response film curve  (Read 9477 times)

Paul Steunebrink

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 86
    • Image Alchemist
Linear Response film curve
« on: February 27, 2018, 10:13:26 am »

In the Base Characteristics tool you can select the Linear Response film curve. Although I technically understand the feature and use it occasionally, I am interested in users experiences in day-to-day applications like landscape, architecture or else.

Do you use it and in what kind of circumstances? For example: high contrast / high dynamic range images / to tame the highlights?
I am also interested any additional tools you use to create a desirable tone scale, like Curve tool, Contrast slider or else.

I am open about my intentions: I plan to collect experiences and write a blog post about. In addition, if applicable, create styles to support a linear response workflow with Capture One.

Thank you for reading and responding.
Logged

DP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2018, 10:20:32 am »

In the Base Characteristics tool you can select the Linear Response film curve. Although I technically understand the feature and use it occasionally, I am interested in users experiences in day-to-day applications like landscape, architecture or else.

Do you use it and in what kind of circumstances? For example: high contrast / high dynamic range images / to tame the highlights?
I am also interested any additional tools you use to create a desirable tone scale, like Curve tool, Contrast slider or else.

I am open about my intentions: I plan to collect experiences and write a blog post about. In addition, if applicable, create styles to support a linear response workflow with Capture One.

Thank you for reading and responding.

I prefer "linear" all the time for any subject + Camera profile created with dcamprof ( https://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/dcamprof.html ) /LrPD ( lumariver.com/lrpd-manual/ ) accounting for "transfer function" and the curve in UI

Logged

Dinarius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1216
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2018, 10:34:56 am »

Paul, I now process everything in Linear, and I have set up my 5D Mark IV to give me previews that mimic this, and expose accordingly. 

I tend to use a combination of Curves and Levels to replace the contrast lost through Linear. I rarely use Contrast.

In HD range images, I try using a little of the Highlight slider in combination with the Highlight slider in the Colour Editor for highlight recovery.

I also shoot Hasselblad and work mostly in Reproduction Mode, Phocus’ Linear equivalent. They recently introduced what they call Reproduction Mode Low Gain - an even flatter curve. I’ve often wondered how flat the C1 curve is in Linear, and could it be even flatter?

I find that, in Linear, files display their full dynamic range and are far more elastic, if that makes sense. Though, I do think that C1 has issues with the 5D Mark IV, which it doesn’t have with the two Sony and two other Canons I’ve processed within C1.

Having seen how Linear can fully exploit a file, I would rarely process in Auto now.

D.
Logged

Paul Steunebrink

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 86
    • Image Alchemist
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2018, 10:40:09 am »

(...)
I also shoot Hasselblad and work mostly in Reproduction Mode, Phocus’ Linear equivalent. They recently introduced what they call Reproduction Mode Low Gain - an even flatter curve. I’ve often wondered how flat the C1 curve is in Linear, and could it be even flatter?

D.
Thanks for your and DP's write up. Capture One's Linear Response curve is not entirely flat I learned in the Phase One school ;-) (POCP). The Linear Scientific curve is, and you can find that curve in Capture One for their digital backs.
Logged

DP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2018, 10:49:41 am »

Having seen how Linear can fully exploit a file, I would rarely process in Auto now.

P1 icc/icm camera profiles have curve name encoded to direct C1 to select an actual curve when "auto" is used in UI

Matlab example:

icc = iccread('z:\SonyA7RM2-P1IQ350MP-Flash - Flat Art Reproduction.icm')
icc.PrivateTags{3,1} = 'P1FC'
icc.PrivateTags{3,2} = uint8(['text'  char(0)  char(0)  char (0)  char(0) 'SonyA7RM2-Linear Scientific' char(0)])
a = iccwrite(icc,'SonyA7RM2-P1IQ350MP-Flash - Flat Art Reproduction 2.icm')

profile has 2 private tags already, hence adding #3 P1FC and the name of .fcrv file as text... if no private tags beforehand then for example:

icc.PrivateTags{1,1} = 'P1FC'
icc.PrivateTags{1,2} = uint8(['text'  char(0)  char(0)  char (0)  char(0) 'SonyA7RM2-Linear Response' char(0)])
Logged

Dinarius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1216
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2018, 10:49:55 am »

Thanks for your and DP's write up. Capture One's Linear Response curve is not entirely flat I learned in the Phase One school ;-) (POCP). The Linear Scientific curve is, and you can find that curve in Capture One for their digital backs.

Paul, thanks.

Well, it would be a bonus if they made that Linear Scientific available to the rest of us. But, maybe they’re feeling the heat from the likes of Sony? :)

D.

Ps. And anyone can download Phocus for free, though pretty useless without a Hassie.
Logged

Dinarius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1216
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2018, 10:51:47 am »

I prefer "linear" all the time for any subject + Camera profile created with dcamprof ( https://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/dcamprof.html ) /LrPD ( lumariver.com/lrpd-manual/ ) accounting for "transfer function" and the curve in UI

DP,

Thanks for the heads up on dcamprof. New to me.

D.
Logged

DP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2018, 10:52:39 am »

Thanks for your and DP's write up. Capture One's Linear Response curve is not entirely flat I learned in the Phase One school ;-) (POCP). The Linear Scientific curve is, and you can find that curve in Capture One for their digital backs.

no, curve itself (data) is flat - but .fcrv files are more than just a curve - there is a flag (bit or byte, etc) instructing C1 to roll ... but the curve data is identical...0,0 & 1,1
Logged

DP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2018, 10:53:45 am »

Thanks for the heads up on dcamprof. New to me.

what do you mean by that ? you are reading this forum for a while and dcamprof is a 2 years project mentioned here a lot of times since 2015
Logged

DP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2018, 10:58:24 am »

could it be even flatter?

you need to  (1) account for/compensate "transfer function" (2) make sure LUTs in camera profile don't do this (or use simple matrix profile) (3) use .fcrv curve file with 0,0 - 1,1 curve and (4) use or not flag in .fcrv curve file instructing C1 code to roll approaching clipping
Logged

Dinarius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1216
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #10 on: February 27, 2018, 11:11:50 am »

what do you mean by that ? you are reading this forum for a while and dcamprof is a 2 years project mentioned here a lot of times since 2015

I’m choosy about what I read. I also have a head like a sieve! 😎

D.
Logged

Jeff

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 82
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #11 on: February 27, 2018, 11:18:28 am »

I use the Linear Response Film Curve by default for all my image imports  ( I use a catalog ) and then create two layers  named  " RGB "  & " Luma " which I use for the respective curve adjustments.

When I started out with C1 I used the contrast slider but with more experience (read practice ) I rarely use it now preferring curves adjustments instead with some " fine tuning " from the color balance tool.


« Last Edit: February 27, 2018, 11:22:37 am by Jeff »
Logged

Dinarius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1216
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #12 on: February 27, 2018, 11:30:25 am »

I use the Linear Response Film Curve by default for all my image imports  ( I use a catalog ) and then create two layers  named  " RGB "  & " Luma " which I use for the respective curve adjustments.

When I started out with C1 I used the contrast slider but with more experience (read practice ) I rarely use it now preferring curves adjustments instead with some " fine tuning " from the color balance tool.

Ps.

Thanks for reminding me.

I should have written above that I never use RGB curve, only Luma.

D.
Logged

DP

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 727
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2018, 11:43:05 am »

I’m choosy about what I read. I also have a head like a sieve! 😎

D.

there is a sublink in manual ( https://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/dcamprof.html ) to tutorial = https://www.ludd.ltu.se/~torger/photography/camera-profiling.html
Logged

sebbe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #14 on: February 28, 2018, 06:05:58 am »

Paul, thanks.

Well, it would be a bonus if they made that Linear Scientific available to the rest of us. But, maybe they’re feeling the heat from the likes of Sony? :)

D.

Ps. And anyone can download Phocus for free, though pretty useless without a Hassie.

Just copy it from another one and rename it to your cameras name. After a restart of C1 the "linear scientific" curve will be available for your camera as well.
Logged

Dinarius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1216
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2018, 08:32:05 am »

Just copy it from another one and rename it to your cameras name. After a restart of C1 the "linear scientific" curve will be available for your camera as well.

Hi Sebbe,

You're talking Dutch to me!  :o

Copy what, exactly, from where to where?

If you can explain the procedure to me in baby steps, you're on my Christmas card list for life!  8)

Thanks!

D.

Ps. I'm Windows 10 x64, if that makes any difference.
Logged

Dinarius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1216
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2018, 08:42:32 am »

Thanks for your and DP's write up. Capture One's Linear Response curve is not entirely flat I learned in the Phase One school ;-) (POCP). The Linear Scientific curve is, and you can find that curve in Capture One for their digital backs.

Paul,

One further point....

I do think that the PhaseOne business model is similar to high fashion - selling MF backs (Haute Couture) to 1%ers in order to create a brand that allows you to sell C1 (e.g. perfume, cosmetics) to the masses.

In fashion, the perfume/cosmetics are their bread and butter, and they know it.

I have no idea but, at the moment, PhaseOne's cash-cow may well be MF backs, with C1 as a service product they have to provide in order to make the MF business viable.

But, if that is the case, I firmly believe it won't stay that way. DSLR and Mirrorless can only get better. If you NEED (very deliberate emphasis) 100MP then you need 100MP. Period.

But, very few of us do.

Now factor in in-camera multi-shot (e.g. Sony) at less than the price of a lens for a PhaseOne.....you can see where I'm going.

C1 is a superb product, but I think that PhaseOne's customer focus, so to speak, lies still with MF and not the software.

As I wrote to them recently, the most bog-standard of all RAW developers, ACR, has far and away the best CA/Lens correction tool. If only C1 were as good.

D.
Logged

sebbe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2018, 12:05:09 pm »

...
Copy what, exactly, from where to where?
...

Sure, it's not that difficult.

Open your explorer (windows + e)
search "scientific" on your drive (C:\Program Files\Phase One\Capture One 11\Film Curves)
right click on one of these and choose "open path"
copy the "*-Linear Scientific.fcrv" file (ctrl + C)
paste it (ctrl + v) (you need administrativ rights for that)
rename the file to "SonyA7RM2-Linear Scientific.fcrv" (or whatever camera you choose)
restart Capture One.
Logged

Dinarius

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1216
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2018, 12:20:14 pm »

Sure, it's not that difficult.

Open your explorer (windows + e)
search "scientific" on your drive (C:\Program Files\Phase One\Capture One 11\Film Curves)
right click on one of these and choose "open path"
copy the "*-Linear Scientific.fcrv" file (ctrl + C)
paste it (ctrl + v) (you need administrativ rights for that)
rename the file to "SonyA7RM2-Linear Scientific.fcrv" (or whatever camera you choose)
restart Capture One.

Sebbe,

Thanks.

Still a bit confused...

1. I presume you mean right-click and choose Open With not Open Path?

2. If so, when I right-click on, say, "CanonEOS5DMk4-Linear Respose.frcv" and I select Open With, I am presented with..."How do you want to open this file? Look for an app in the App store."

Am I doing something wrong?

Finally, in that folder, there are plenty of Linear Scientific film curves, but they are all Leaf or PhaseOne. If I was to copy and rename one of these; CanonEOS5DMk4 Linear Scientific.frcv would that work? I presume not, just thought I'd ask.

Thanks!

D.
Logged

sebbe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 113
Re: Linear Response film curve
« Reply #19 on: February 28, 2018, 12:49:17 pm »



As the linear scientific is 0,0 to 1,1 and nothing more all are identical for all cameras. Well at least that was what others said. No need to open it with some software, just rename it to the camera model you use.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2   Go Up