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Author Topic: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience  (Read 15768 times)

loganross

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My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« on: February 26, 2018, 12:30:48 am »

I posted this on another forum in response to an inquiry, but I thought some might find it useful here.

I own both. We have plenty of feedback already on the basic analysis (such as roll vs no roll; build quality; etc.), so I won't go into that. I will share my personal experience based on my personal needs. I don't need to sell either, so I hope you'll view my opinion as being unbiased. I am new to Canon, and have used Epson for more than a decade.

Full disclosure: I am very particular about color and sensitive to it. Moreover, I do a lot of portrait work, particularly where light tan to medium skin tones are involved. I am so specific about the nuances of color, that I never felt satisfied until I could truly control the color management process from end-to-end (i.e., I use custom camera icc profiles as well as custom icc printer profiles). Today, I am proud to say that I no longer need to worry about the technical process. I worry only about my images, and I know the output on the printer will be what I envisioned in my head and edited on my PC.

Playing Fair: I use the same papers in both printers. I have custom profiles for both printers made by the same company (Chromix). While I could print directly out of photoshop, I actually print using Q Image Ultimate. The main point is that I am printing the exact same image under the same conditions. The absolute only difference between the two prints is which printer driver I select (Canon or Epson).

My Experience: For basic printing, or if you are not very particular, or even if you are (but print mainly landscapes and such),....either printer might be good enough. They both have exceptional output. However, for me, there is a nuance in the Canon prints I have grown to prefer. With flesh tones, I find more natural life-likeness, and tan skin tones don't have that slight green tone to them that they do on the Epson. I am not sure what it is, perhaps its the red ink, perhaps it is that it is newer technology. I have done countless blind tests, and for the types of photos I print, I always pick the Canon, regardless of paper, and rarely do I need to do any more than glance at them for a second. To be fair, for landscape-type photos, I do often have a tough time telling them apart, although I don't do a lot of printing of that type, and a landscape photographer might appreciate the bigger gamut of the Canon.

Generally, I think that the Chroma Optimizer is a bonus for the Canon. If you don't like auto mode, you can coat the whole page. You can also configure a Media Type that matches your needed media type, but that turns off Chroma Optimizer completely.

For black and white, I use the black and white modes of each printer. I have found that they are close, but in blind tests, I almost always pick the Canon. Note that they are both excellent, but the canon gives me a "very slightly" more natural gradation from black to white. Moreover, I have found the Canon edge to be B&W image dependent in some cases.

I find the Epson P800 paper feeding options to work perfectly well, including the front fine art feeder (once I learned to use the front feeder's "front lip" to align the paper).  Therefore I did not find the Canon feed system to be a "big" advantage, although it is excellent.  Note also that the Epson roll holder is a big plus, but I am not doing much roll printing these days.

I have found tech support for both to be great, but Canon has US based tech support and it feels a little more personal (I assume it is not a gigantic team).

Caveats: I find the various margin limitations on the canon really annoying. For example, you need a minimum 1 inch margin at the top and bottom for Fine art paper, and its minimum top/bottom margins for glossy paper are uneven (I think they are .10" and .20"). Note that these are generally only annoying when you print on Letter size, as it is noticeable at that size. Also, this is not the printer for you if you print roll paper.

Conclusion: No ink switching (shame on Epson for not addressing this after all of these years), exceptional portrait quality and skin tones, the accounting manager, and the ability to configure media types has won me over. I have not found the Canon to use any more ink than my Epson. I am impressed with the Canon technology and I want to reward that. I owned 7 Epson photo printers over 10 years, and while there were incremental improvements there hasn't been much innovation.

The Canon is now my primary printer. I still have both as I am in no rush, but I am unlikely to keep the Epson for the long run. It doesn't make sense for me, economically or otherwise, to have two 17" printers.

Custom Profiles:  I highly recommend custom profiles.  They are beneficial for both, but are needed more for the Epson.  Depending on the manufacturer, and even then on the particular profile created for a specific paper by that manufacturer, their profiles will get you anywhere from 70%-90% to end-game.  Custom profiles get you 100% there and let you pick papers based on you preference or based on matching the paper to the image.  You will never avoid a particular paper because the image is off due to color management issues.
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 04:52:15 pm by loganross »
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loganross

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2018, 12:47:20 am »

A funny story about the tech in the Canon Pro 1000, specifically the media size sensors.  Last night, I opened a box of Ilford Gold Fibre Silk 13x19 paper.  I went to print, and for the first time since getting the printer, the paper ejected and I got a warning indicating that the paper was the wrong size.  I began trouble shooting for hours, and in the end assumed there was an issue with the printer, so I disabled media size detection and printed the photo anyway.  Today, I went to mount the photo on 1/2" 13x19 self-adhesive black gatorfoam.  Dang it, the gatorfoam was bigger than the paper at one edge and there was an even bigger difference at the other end.  I was pretty upset as I checked my remaining gatorfoam boards and observed the same thing.  I assumed that the gatorfoam, which is really expensive, was poorly cut and it is too late for me to exchange it.  Then I cut a 13x19 3/16 piece of regular foamboard so I could put the photo in a frame.  Holy cow, the same problem.  That is when I realized that the problem wasn't the board, it was the paper.  The entire box is defective.  The 13" side measures 3/16" of an inch short on one side and 1/16" short on the other.  So it turns out, the printer was right.  I will listen next time  ;D
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Panagiotis

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2018, 01:01:10 am »

Caveats: I find the various margin limitations on the canon really annoying. For example, you need a minimum 1 inch margin at the top and bottom for Fine art paper, and its minimum top/bottom margins for glossy paper are uneven (I think they are .10" and .20"). Note that these are generally only annoying when you print on Letter size, as it is noticeable at that size. Also, this is not the printer for you if you print roll paper.

The margin limitation can be cancelled. In the driver settings --> tab Page Setup --> Print Options --> check Cancel the safety margin regulation for paper size.
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patjoja

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2018, 01:52:37 am »

Loganross,

Thank you for the very good report and comparison!  Lots of good information there.

Patrick
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loganross

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2018, 11:53:01 am »

 Hi,
You are welcome.

Also, I forgot to mention - I find the Epson P800 paper feeding options to work perfectly well, including the front fine art feeder (once I learned to use the front feeder's "front lip" to align the paper).
 Therefore I did not find the Canon feed system to be a "big" advantage, although it is excellent.

 
Loganross,

Thank you for the very good report and comparison!  Lots of good information there.

Patrick
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Roger_Breton

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2018, 12:36:25 pm »

Thank you loganross, this is the type of discrimating information I'm after. I gave Epson my money for many years. I know I'm guilty of not printing nearly enough for the kind of printer I operated (3000, 4000 and now 4900) still, I wish Epson, you know... So now, I hesitate between a P800 and a Pro1000, and your review is helping :-)
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Eric Brody

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2018, 12:47:02 pm »

I'm still happily using my Epson 3880. Someday it will die. I will then have to make a choice since I cannot justify a 24" printer.

It would be easy if Canon supported QTR, or if QTR supported Canon.
 
I HATE ink switching on Epson even though it uses (wastes) minimal ink, apparently 4.6ml for the matte to photo black, but that's a simple waste of 5% of the 80ml cartridge.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2018, 05:18:01 pm »

Thank you loganross, this is the type of discrimating information I'm after. I gave Epson my money for many years. I know I'm guilty of not printing nearly enough for the kind of printer I operated (3000, 4000 and now 4900) still, I wish Epson, you know... So now, I hesitate between a P800 and a Pro1000, and your review is helping :-)

You may also wish to refresh your memory by reviewing my reviews of the SC-P800, SC-P5000 and Canon Pro 1000 on this website, as well as Keith Cooper's reviews of these same printers on his Northlight Images website.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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loganross

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2018, 05:23:25 pm »

I am happy this info is useful. I am starting to see that as Printer technology reaches extreme maturity, the less dependent it's use is on third party tools developed to fix printers' previous (legacy) deficiencies.  In speaking with some real experts in the field (I am not one), it appears that the current crop of printers is extremely accurate and linear in terms of output capability (even if there are still minor variations from unit to unit). 

Until recently, I was using a RIP for the purpose of both workflow and image quality.  Since moving to the canon 1000, I have realized that a RIP may no longer be necessary, including for B&W prints.  I found that I could meet or exceed my previous RIP based printing quality by printing directly through the printer driver.  I now print through QImage for workflow (including sharpening, cropping, layout, and saving "Jobs"), and then I use custom icc profiles for best-in-class image color accuracy.  This workflow actually gives me more flexibility in many ways than any previous workflow I have had. 
**Note that RIPS (such as ImagePrint and QTR) are still a great option for many many people, and so I am not dismissing their value.

In sum, you may be surprised that you may no longer need QTR.  The only way to find out, is to give it it shot 😀. Please keep us posted.


 
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 01:37:24 am by loganross »
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loganross

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2018, 05:25:59 pm »

I concur with this. Those reviews were instrumental in my decision to give something new a try.

You may also wish to refresh your memory by reviewing my reviews of the SC-P800, SC-P5000 and Canon Pro 1000 on this website, as well as Keith Cooper's reviews of these same printers on his Northlight Images website.
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loganross

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #10 on: March 05, 2018, 01:04:10 am »

You are welcome.  I am in the tech industry, and I am a proponent of motivating tech companies to always innovate. I just created custom media types for my pro 1000, see attached, and I think it is great that I have the ability to do so (extracting every possible bit of quality by easily taking into account the specific characteristics of each individual printer/paper/printer/ink combination).   By creating custom media types, the printer is able to account for paper feed accuracy and ink requirements for each specific paper.  For example, each paper I created a media type for, measured differently when it came to paper feed configuration.  Moreover, even within a class of papers, such as Fine Art papers, certain papers differed in their need for ink quantity (for example: Canon FA Smooth and Hahnemuhle Photo Rag Ultra Smooth have higher ink tolerances than others such as Moab Somerset Museum Rag).  The goal is not to compare papers, but to ensure the printer is configured for the full capabilities of each paper.

I don't have to go through this process to achieve exquisite results, and perhaps the gains are not eye-popping, but the fact that I am able to do so is just the icing on the cake (especially since I find the process enjoyable).  I am thinking of doing a quick workflow video should it be helpful to others.   

Thank you loganross, this is the type of discrimating information I'm after. I gave Epson my money for many years. I know I'm guilty of not printing nearly enough for the kind of printer I operated (3000, 4000 and now 4900) still, I wish Epson, you know... So now, I hesitate between a P800 and a Pro1000, and your review is helping :-)
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 01:36:44 am by loganross »
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Mark D Segal

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #11 on: March 05, 2018, 09:15:50 am »

I am thinking of doing a quick workflow video should it be helpful to others.   

Logan - let me be one to encourage you to do that. The MCT is not one of the more obvious tools to work with - in respects of knowing what to specify and then getting the new Media Type to be recognized. Particularly important to explain is what you need to do - what experimentation required - to know what settings to make when specifying a new Media Type with the MCT. Such a video would be a real contribution.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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henrikolsen

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #12 on: March 05, 2018, 03:19:50 pm »

I might chime in with some info on MCT usage, as I've recently spent a good deal of time testing out things in it that I cannot find properly documented.

A couple of starting points, some might be mentioned earlier, some might be new to some, some might be qualified speculation (missing hard facts from Canon).

Create calibration issues a feed adjustment, whether done or not in step 1. The reported values do _not_ agree, and the bug is reported to Canon (both the extra feed adjustment initiation, and the - much worse - discrepancy between the two runs). It _might_ be that the value reported in create calibration target is a delta to the one in step 1 (often low value for me), but not sure. Rerunning step 1 adjustments is fairly consistent. If different value from create calibration run is overwriting the one from step 1 is unknown. Canon is provided with am1x exported media files for examination but haven't returned with results. Please do your own bug reports to Canon if you replicate this issue to force some more pressure on the trouble solving.

Create calibration target does just that :). It just creates a target, but only the ability to later calibrate against it is registered, not an actual calibration. This might be (another) bug in MCT. As I recall from earlier tests some linearisation does change from this create calibration target, though calibration isn't reported until executed separately after target creation. I can dig out more data if needed. I've stopped using the calibration now, as changes seemed minor to end result of custom calibration, and since the extra feed adjustment it triggers seem buggy, and Canon has yet to come up with an explanation of the discrepancies.

For _some_ base media types the named quality scale if offset compared to built in media types, e.g. highest mean quality 2 for some media, but maps to quality 3 for others (in that case quality 2 can be set custom, but not as named setting). This is quite confusing. Quality range is 2-5, 2 being highest (see accounting manager).

Photo/glossy media cannot have a custom media type with the auto CO application as Pro Platinum which puts in from highlights to darks. The base media types for custom media seem to only apply to darker tones (as Glossy II). This has stopped me from using custom media for glossy papers, unfortunately - missing out on feed adjustments, named medias in selection and accounting etc. Overall/full setting still works, but often I just want auto, but with Pro Platinum CO curve, not the one excluding highlights where I think they matter a lot (perhaps more than shadows).

The three fine art base media type seem to render colors the same, and only differ in their default settings of ink limits and head height (and possible exclusion of rear feed for thicker papers). So the multiple options are just presets. Set back to same ink limit and head heights, they print the same.

Only some base media types allow for use with "Contrast reproduction" in Print Studio Pro.

I'm sure there's more, but that's it for this time. Tons of time and testing for reaching some of this insight. All backed up by a lot of measurements and notes. Unfortunate, as I'd wished for all this to be clearly documented and resolved by Canon.

This might have it's own thread for MCT. Let me know if that's appreciated. And please join with more knowledge and data.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #13 on: March 05, 2018, 03:24:10 pm »

I recommend a new thread as this could clearly be an evolving story that other Pro-1000 users will find useful to consult.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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loganross

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #14 on: March 05, 2018, 04:34:39 pm »

Hi Henrikolsen,
I agree with Mark that it is a complex topic that deviates from this discussion.  I am happy to participate in a new thread.  As a side note, i am not sure I have experienced the issues you raised.  I don't have any issues with custom media types, but then again, I have custom profiles made and do not need the color calibration portion of MCT.


I might chime in with some info on MCT usage, as I've recently spent a good deal of time testing out things in it that I cannot find properly documented.

A couple of starting points, some might be mentioned earlier, some might be new to some, some might be qualified speculation (missing hard facts from Canon).

Create calibration issues a feed adjustment, whether done or not in step 1. The reported values do _not_ agree, and the bug is reported to Canon (both the extra feed adjustment initiation, and the - much worse - discrepancy between the two runs). It _might_ be that the value reported in create calibration target is a delta to the one in step 1 (often low value for me), but not sure. Rerunning step 1 adjustments is fairly consistent. If different value from create calibration run is overwriting the one from step 1 is unknown. Canon is provided with am1x exported media files for examination but haven't returned with results. Please do your own bug reports to Canon if you replicate this issue to force some more pressure on the trouble solving.

Create calibration target does just that :). It just creates a target, but only the ability to later calibrate against it is registered, not an actual calibration. This might be (another) bug in MCT. As I recall from earlier tests some linearisation does change from this create calibration target, though calibration isn't reported until executed separately after target creation. I can dig out more data if needed. I've stopped using the calibration now, as changes seemed minor to end result of custom calibration, and since the extra feed adjustment it triggers seem buggy, and Canon has yet to come up with an explanation of the discrepancies.

For _some_ base media types the named quality scale if offset compared to built in media types, e.g. highest mean quality 2 for some media, but maps to quality 3 for others (in that case quality 2 can be set custom, but not as named setting). This is quite confusing. Quality range is 2-5, 2 being highest (see accounting manager).

Photo/glossy media cannot have a custom media type with the auto CO application as Pro Platinum which puts in from highlights to darks. The base media types for custom media seem to only apply to darker tones (as Glossy II). This has stopped me from using custom media for glossy papers, unfortunately - missing out on feed adjustments, named medias in selection and accounting etc. Overall/full setting still works, but often I just want auto, but with Pro Platinum CO curve, not the one excluding highlights where I think they matter a lot (perhaps more than shadows).

The three fine art base media type seem to render colors the same, and only differ in their default settings of ink limits and head height (and possible exclusion of rear feed for thicker papers). So the multiple options are just presets. Set back to same ink limit and head heights, they print the same.

Only some base media types allow for use with "Contrast reproduction" in Print Studio Pro.

I'm sure there's more, but that's it for this time. Tons of time and testing for reaching some of this insight. All backed up by a lot of measurements and notes. Unfortunate, as I'd wished for all this to be clearly documented and resolved by Canon.

This might have it's own thread for MCT. Let me know if that's appreciated. And please join with more knowledge and data.
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Panagiotis

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2018, 04:41:36 pm »

I don't have any issues with custom media types, but then again, I have custom profiles made and do not need the color calibration portion of MCT.

Color calibration is needed to reset the printer's color output to a known well state. If you don't execute it in the suggested time intervals then your color profiles will be kind of invalidated due to color output drifting over time. At least that is how I understand the color calibration mechanism of the Canon PRO series printers.
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loganross

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2018, 04:45:48 pm »

Color Calibration is intended to be performed when initially setting up the printer, and subsequently when there are environmental changes (according to Canon).  Thus it would not be an element of normal operation, including creating media types.

 
Color calibration is needed to reset the printer's color output to a known well state. If you don't execute it in the suggested time intervals then your color profiles will be kind of invalidated due to color output drifting over time. At least that is how I understand the color calibration mechanism of the Canon PRO series printers.
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Panagiotis

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2018, 04:54:55 pm »

Color Calibration is intended to be performed when initially setting up the printer, and subsequently when there are environmental changes (according to Canon).  Thus it would not be an element of normal operation, including creating media types.

Not according to this article here:http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2016/ipf-pro1000/color-calibration-tool.shtml

"Calibration is a process that ensures that your paper is receiving the exact amounts of ink specified by the driver to create your desired colors. Ink output can change because of small variations in ink and paper production, as well as shifts in humidity and ambient temperature in your work area. It is usually a good practice to calibrate your media whenever you open a new package of paper, replace an ink cartridge, or at least once a month."

There is also the Device management console app which monitors the calibration status for every paper custom or not (that is papers with common or unique calibration) and suggest the appropriate time to renew the color calibration. More here:
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2017/printer-device-management.shtml

From the above link:

"The Calibration Advisability bar below the status window indicates whether a new calibration is recommended at this time. If the bar is green, calibration is not needed. If it is yellow, try to schedule a calibration when you can. If the bar is red, you should calibrate before printing to ensure accurate color in your prints."
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loganross

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Re: My Epson P800 and Canon Pro 1000 Experience
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2018, 04:57:01 pm »




Moving MCT specific conversation to other thread.

Not according to this article here:http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2016/ipf-pro1000/color-calibration-tool.shtml

"Calibration is a process that ensures that your paper is receiving the exact amounts of ink specified by the driver to create your desired colors. Ink output can change because of small variations in ink and paper production, as well as shifts in humidity and ambient temperature in your work area. It is usually a good practice to calibrate your media whenever you open a new package of paper, replace an ink cartridge, or at least once a month."

There is also the Device management console app which monitors the calibration status for every paper custom or not (that is papers with common or unique calibration) and suggest the appropriate time to renew the color calibration. More here:
http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2017/printer-device-management.shtml
« Last Edit: March 05, 2018, 07:15:27 pm by loganross »
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