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Author Topic: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?  (Read 1324 times)

the_luminous_french

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phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« on: February 22, 2018, 04:04:20 PM »

! can read on the phase one site :

First part of the Profiling process is about bringing the monitor as close as possible to a standardized setup. To describe such a setup we typically specify 3 parameters:
Gamma response  = 2.2
White Point  = 5000K
Brightness = 120 candela/m2

But, i much prefer 5800 or 6000K... and i'm not alone... much more neutral (using an iOne Display pro)... why Phase one are using 5000K ?
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Doug Gray

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2018, 04:31:57 PM »

! can read on the phase one site :

First part of the Profiling process is about bringing the monitor as close as possible to a standardized setup. To describe such a setup we typically specify 3 parameters:
Gamma response  = 2.2
White Point  = 5000K
Brightness = 120 candela/m2

But, i much prefer 5800 or 6000K... and i'm not alone... much more neutral (using an iOne Display pro)... why Phase one are using 5000K ?

5000K, (Actually D50) is the standard reference illuminant for ICC profiles. It's also the standard viewing illuminant for graphic arts. Most photographers use D65 or something in between.
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digitaldog

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2018, 04:47:47 PM »

5000K, (Actually D50) is the standard reference illuminant for ICC profiles.
Let's be more than clear, 5000K isn't necessary and often isn't D50!
To the OP, the right values differ, there are no such standards and the settings that produce the desired goal of the calibration are the right numbers. They vary all over the map. IF one set of so called standards were correct for all the various display technologies and differences, the software we use to calibrate our displays would have one setting. The better products have many ways just to set say White Point values and they provide these values for a reason; yours will likely differ from mine.
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Andrew Rodney
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Doug Gray

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2018, 05:18:51 PM »

Let's be more than clear, 5000K isn't necessary and often isn't D50!
To the OP, the right values differ, there are no such standards and the settings that produce the desired goal of the calibration are the right numbers. They vary all over the map. IF one set of so called standards were correct for all the various display technologies and differences, the software we use to calibrate our displays would have one setting. The better products have many ways just to set say White Point values and they provide these values for a reason; yours will likely differ from mine.

Agreed.

5000K (black body not CCT) isn't D50, which is why I said (actually D50) to distinguish them. I should have made that more clear.

While D50 with the requisite uV viewing stations do exist, they are expensive. Most people don't have the luxury or prefer a less warm illuminant. Good profiling products provide the flexibility.

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digitaldog

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2018, 05:57:30 PM »

While D50 with the requisite uV viewing stations do exist, they are expensive.
I am of the opinion that the only object that actually produces D50 is 93 million miles away. Viewing station manufacturers and their marketing departments would prefer people believe otherwise.
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Andrew Rodney
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Doug Gray

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2018, 07:15:32 PM »

I am of the opinion that the only object that actually produces D50 is 93 million miles away. Viewing station manufacturers and their marketing departments would prefer people believe otherwise.
Yeah. And only late in the day or early morning on a clear day w/o a lot of smog (an issue here). But you have to appreciate how effective marketing can be.

Also D50 is somewhat spikey as is the Solar spectrum. But not as bad as F8 bulbs that show some metameric shift even if they do meet ISO. You achieve much better metamerism with Solux. Still, the high end ISO 3664:2009 station's biggest claim to fame is the addition of D50 levels of uV but that really only matters for OBA media and requires M1 profiles. Most canned profiles are not M1. So if one wants to go whole hog and use OBA media then custom M1 profiles can't be avoided with an ISO station.

I've seen newer LED lamps that are slightly better than F8s. No uV though. OTOH, I really don't like optical brighteners so it's usually of no consequence.
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digitaldog

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2018, 07:17:56 PM »


The series of D-illuminants was adopted by the CIE in 1971 based on 622
measurements from the early 1960s: 249 at Rochester, NY (Kodak); 274 at
Enfield, England (Thorn Electrical Industries); and 99 at Ottawa, Canada
(National Research Council). Each of these labs contributed spectral
measurements taken with different kinds of instruments measuring at
different spectral intervals over slightly different ranges. The data
were combined into a master set consisting of averages over 10 nm
intervals from 330 to 700 nm from which the average and four
characteristic vectors were calculated. The average and first two of
these vectors account for most of the variance in the observed data and
live on as the S0, S1, and S2 vectors used to calculate the
D-illuminants in the CIE standard (see Wyszecki & Stiles, 2nd. Ed., page
146). S0 is the mean, S1 provides a yellow-blue variation relating to
cloud cover and inclusion/exclusion of direct sunlight, and S2 provides
a pink-green variation which was thought at the time to derive from
variations in atmospheric water vapor and haze.


All of this was reported by Judd, MacAdam and Wyszecki, J. Opt. Soc.
Am., Vol. 54, p. 1031 (1964) and was incorporated without change into
the 1971 CIE standard except for the addition of the formula for
illuminant chromaticities in terms of correlated color temperature due
to Kelly at NBS (now NIST, Washington, D.C.).
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the_luminous_french

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2018, 01:52:05 AM »

5000K, (Actually D50) is the standard reference illuminant for ICC profiles. It's also the standard viewing illuminant for graphic arts. Most photographers use D65 or something in between.

so why Phase one are choosing 5000K ?
On a LAcie, 3 Eizo... with 5000K even the grey of capture windows looks really really warm...

I know that for different task, different settings are required... but i'm talking about shooting tethered with C1 and getting accurate viewing... so, it should be the Phase One settings...
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Czornyj

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2018, 02:31:40 AM »

The trick is that due to the nature of chromatic adaptation the D50 calibrated display doesn't look like neutral paper illuminated by D50 at all. Calibrate to D65 or adjust the wtpt to whiteness of your paper+illumination manually.

daicehawk

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2018, 02:42:08 PM »

The trick is that due to the nature of chromatic adaptation the D50 calibrated display doesn't look like neutral paper illuminated by D50 at all. Calibrate to D65 or adjust the wtpt to whiteness of your paper+illumination manually.
Even a real D50 sunlight illuminated linear reflection spectrum materials like paper, cotton etc. will not look white. There will be no complete chromatic adaptation. 5500 - 8000 K range seems to be fine. The thing is the sun luminance at 5000 K (clear sky) is the most intense and allows the most saturated reflected colors to be produced and perceived thereof.
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Rand47

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2018, 04:33:42 PM »

This is why I love this web site!  What an education.  I've "kinda" had an approximate clue re this - but this discussion has been really enlightening. Thanks guys . . .

Rand
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #11 on: February 24, 2018, 12:05:23 PM »

What I have missed in this thread so far is the issue of monitor-to-print matching. If that's not important to you, then yes, go ahead and set your monitor to whatever pleases you. But if it is important (and I surmise that it is/should be for most people) then you need to set your monitor for the best match between the image on-screen and your print illuminated by your digital darkroom lighting.
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digitaldog

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #12 on: February 24, 2018, 12:10:50 PM »

What I have missed in this thread so far is the issue of monitor-to-print matching.
OK, I'll bite for you:

Why are my prints too dark?
A video update to a written piece on subject from 2013
In this 24 minute video, I'll cover:

Are your prints really too dark?
Display calibration and WYSIWYG
Proper print viewing conditions
Trouble shooting to get a match
Avoiding kludges that don't solve the problem



High resolution: http://digitaldog.net/files/Why_are_my_prints_too_dark.mp4
Low resolution: https://youtu.be/iS6sjZmxjY4
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Andrew Rodney
Author Color Management for Photographers"

Tim Lookingbill

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2018, 05:08:33 PM »

so why Phase one are choosing 5000K ?
On a LAcie, 3 Eizo... with 5000K even the grey of capture windows looks really really warm...

I know that for different task, different settings are required... but i'm talking about shooting tethered with C1 and getting accurate viewing... so, it should be the Phase One settings...

Whatever you do, you don't want to make your display warm looking. It's an editing workstation, not meant to be an exact representation of a real light source such as the sun. It should show no color bias AT ALL!

The image sample below is my attempt to show you why this is important explained from knowledge established and in use by photo realistic dutch masters and renaissance painters 100's of years ago. They worked by window daylight and by candle light so they knew a thing or two about what light does to color perception and color detail and distinction. And it is why Adobe Camera Raw and Lightroom include a Split Tone slider tool along with Color Temp/Tint sliders. But how far does one go in making an image look as the photographer saw it especially daylight shots?

A display is just a tool that gets out of the way and presents all colors equally in saturation with correct looking hues and without color bias. If a vale of warmth is placed over this non-color biased editing environment the eye's ability to adapt and see this warmth as neutral white will take too long and will make it harder to see consistently cool/warm color distinction in a wide range of images shot under various color temps that need editing such as those in the Raw format. A perceived cooler bias display invokes the short wave blue spectrum and is harder to see than red, yellow, orange colors so it appears like there's no bias.

Not only that but it will induce warmer edits that are more pleasing but not at the extent of editing to make it cooler with a warmer display set to 5000K.

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digitaldog

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Re: phase one / capture one... 5000K for monitor ?
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2018, 06:42:02 PM »

! can read on the phase one site :

First part of the Profiling process is about bringing the monitor as close as possible to a standardized setup. To describe such a setup we typically specify 3 parameters:
Gamma response  = 2.2
White Point  = 5000K
Brightness = 120 candela/m2
Utter rubbish! The right settings are those that produce the desired goal of the calibration; often to match a print. IF the above values were written in stone, none of our display calibration software products would ask to set anything, we'd be locked into that silly concept from Phase One. Now they could suggest this as a good starting point and suggest you adjust as desired. They apparently didn't which is why I state the what they wrote is rubbish.
There is NO standardized setup for display calibration that works for everyone and even most! There's too many variables. Display backlight technology alone makes a difference. The ambient light by the display used for print viewing has a huge and differing factor on color matching. Pick whatever CCT Kelvin value (or Standard Illuminant setting, they are NOT the same as shown below) that produces previews in in color managed applications that meet your goals. Ditto for cd/m^2 values. They can be and are all over the map; one setting will be right for one calibration goal.
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Andrew Rodney
Author Color Management for Photographers"
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