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Author Topic: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL  (Read 2141 times)

arobinson7547

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Hello,

I wish to Scan a Profiling Target (Colorchecker SG) with Silverfast 8, and Build the Profile elseware (BasICColor Input).

It's been many years, but I remember when I use to use the Reflective HCT, I'd set the gamma to 2.2 and the quality to 1.5 and select 48-bit HDR. The 48-bit HDR setting pretty much ensured that all local adjustments/corrections were off. I would build my profile with MonacoProfiler (that was long ago) and do my Scans with the same settings and Assign the Profile in Photoshop.

The HDR was always dark (RAW) when it got to Photoshop (a visual characteristic of a Raw scan)

Anyway, I just tired 10 year later and need an update on what to do today. i.e., the optional settings to use for the same Workflow.

On my first attempt My HDR no longer looks dark and I did select none for RGB input (it that all that's needed to turn CM off?)

and my final tiff is LAB (BasICColor will need RGB)

Please help get me started.

Kind Regards



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Mark D Segal

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Re: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2018, 09:24:36 am »

If all you are trying to do is profile the scanner, use the SilverFast Auto IT8 process with the appropriate SilverFast target. It's one or two mouse clicks and works very well.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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digitaldog

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Re: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2018, 10:24:27 am »

The HDR was always dark (RAW) when it got to Photoshop (a visual characteristic of a Raw scan)
It appears dark because it's untagged. There's no reason such a 'raw' scan should look dark if properly color managed. But without, the documents appear dark. They really are not. In color managed workflows, the TRC (gamma) is meaningless really. But that data does need to be known via an embedded profile for proper previewing.
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2018, 11:58:30 am »

We're dealing here with the environment of SilverFast where vocabulary doesn't necessarily mean what is implied in a Photoshop environment. So let's unpack it a bit. Firstly, there is no such thing as a raw scan in the sense that we think of raw data from a digital image capture process. Whatever the scanning process, the result you get to use is a fully rendered, pixel-based RGB image file in TIFF format for example. In the SF8 context, "raw" means that the scan is linear, the colour space is the scanner space and there have been no adjustments of colours. SilverFast's HDR image type setting in SF8 is designed to produce exactly such a scan, and it is primarily meant to be opened in SilverFast's HDR8 application. Secondly, the designation "HDR" in the SilverFast context means that the application has captured all the data, uncompressed, that the scanner can produce - it doesn't mean a blend of several images as in Lr or PS. Thirdly, the reason why the scan looks dark when opened in Photoshop is because it is an untagged linear scan. When you open such a scan in SilverFast 8's HDR application, this is where conventional colour management takes place and the image appearance becomes more normal looking. The two main advantages of using the HDR process in SilverFast are that (1) you always get to preserve a non-tinkered version of the scan (hence non-destructive) and (2) you can reprocess the scan any number of ways you want without having to rescan the original media, because like a digital raw file in Lr, for example, the original always remains unaffected to be reworked. The HDR application has all the editing controls of the SF8 application, except that it doesn't perform scans.

Now, reverting to the O/P's purpose - it remains unclear what profiling is being done for what purpose. I assume the O/P is talking about scanner profiling, in which case I revert to my suggestion of forgetting all that stuff and just use SilverFast's Auto IT8 profiling procedure. It's very fast, very easy and works well.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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arobinson7547

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Re: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2018, 01:29:16 pm »


[RANT]
I would 'like' to reserve the right to use the Target that "I" choose; and it ain't LaserSoft's crappy IT8.   Long 'before' they started selling IT8 Targets and incorporating Scanner Profiling, folks were using any number of Excellent & Well made Scanner Targets [with Silverfast], that suited their purpose. So why now all of a sudden should folks throw what's working for them out?

Should Don Hutcheson or BasICColor or x-rite stop making Targets just because Lasersoft got around to selling an old and dated it8 and incorporating Scanner Profiling. Some folks want and seek Better. If you reread my post I was using Silverfast 10 years ago (round-about) with an Epson Perfection 3200 and a Reflective HutchColor Target. Lastersoft was selling HutchColor and everyone else's Targets then.

Would you stop using your current Printer Profiling solution just because they started sellng/incorporating that feature? or would use you what 'you' choose and what suits 'your' needs best.

Please reread my post. I am seeking the proper 'settings' to make an uncorrected scan (no color management/no local adjustments/no gamma correction) to be used for Scanner Profiling 'outside' of Silverfast.

There is a post on Lasersoft's site where I Heidelberg Scanner Operator was switching from LinoColor Silverast and wanted to continue to use his HCT and was asking for proper settings. His question was not answered (the information he requested was not given) but instead he was told to throw away has excellent target and buy and use the crappy Lastersoft it8. That's not what the guy wanted to do or what he asked.
[END RANT]

I wrote that I was use to the image being dark [before I tagged it in Photoshop]; and I already knew why.

Today (ten years later) when I tried, my image was no longer dark and seemed to be adjusted.

This is why I sought out help with proper 'settings' for this purpose.

Please, how to I set Silverfast to scan a Scanner Profiling Target (of my choosing). I want what I was getting BEFORE; you know, the whole Color Management and turning everything off thing.

Thank you both
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2018, 01:46:07 pm »

No-one is stopping anybody from using anything they want to use. It's just a matter of ease, operability and quality of results. Every one should be their own judge of that - and free to make suggestions for trying out alternatives.

When was the last time you used SilverFast's Auto-IT8 procedure, and have you actually determined that it doesn't meet your needs?

But to answer your question, you can produce the kind of image you seem to want by disabling all profiling (use "none") in SilverFast 8 Preferences Color Management tab, making no edits using any of the SilverFast 8 editing tools and setting the gamma in SilverFast 8 Preferences to 1.0. Scan your target that way and see whether it produces the look that appears satisfactory to you based on your prior experience. If you save it as an RGB TIFF file you should not need to convert from Lab. But I have no idea how such a target file will work with BasicColor Input. You would need to try and see.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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arobinson7547

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Re: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2018, 02:14:36 pm »

I'm not saying that  it's good or bad. It 'doesn't meet my needs' to throw away perfectly good  Profiling Targets and Scanner Profiling Software and Purchase Lastersoft's if I don't have a need to. I'm perfectly happy with what I 'already have. And even if I wanted to compare Lasersoft's Scanning 'Results' to the likes of [many] others, wouldn't I have to 'Properly' make the Target Scans, first

Weather folks are doing RGB profiling using their Printer Driver and printing their Targets the Photoshop or their OS or They are using a Rip; they both have to send their Targets with no adjustments.


Anyway, of the Formats that exist in Silverfast which one 'ensures' that all local settings/adjustments are bypassed. (HDR - what I am calling Raw)
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2018, 02:23:56 pm »

I was assuming that you have SilverFast Ai8 and their reflective target, but was preferring to not use them. That now seems to have been a wrong assumption. If you don't have these materials and can do just as well without them, sure why not. It's just hard to know where to begin helping on a topic without a complete provision of context.

A scan using "HDR 48-bit RAW" if you have that in the version of SilverFast you use should do it. Otherwise, the combination of settings I suggested above.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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arobinson7547

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Re: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2018, 04:35:30 pm »

I think I need some help with that CMS tab. What do you think of these settings? (If my 4 attachments made it)

I know this will all be in my Signed Copy of your Silverfast Workflow, when I buy it.... I'm just getting ahead of the Curve [and giving you time to update it with the "Alternative Target" section<slow wink>
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Mark D Segal

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Re: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2018, 05:08:31 pm »

For the present purpose:

Don't use the Workflow Pilot (Blue globe in the upper left corner of the interface. Use the Red one (Manual).

Just focusing on the CMS tab, which is all that matters here, as you are trying to construct a file that replicates how the scanner sees colours with no management, I would select "none" wherever that option exists in the pull-down menus. This should make everything as unmanaged as it can be iin a workflow that is not an HDR scan. But I'm saying this with some hesitation because I have no idea how the result will behave when fed into BasicColor Input. You may need to do some experimenting. All the advice on such settings in my book applies to the more usual situation of scanning photographs, not profiling targets. And, no, there will be no update exploring alternative profile-making methods for scanners. I do have some of that in my review article of the Epson V850 (the X-Rite approach, bundled with the scanner) - you can look it up on this website.

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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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arobinson7547

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Re: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2018, 07:38:01 am »

Thanks Mark.

You know, I just got an iPad 12.9 and, for the first time just opened the forums here. On IOS I can see an attachment symbol for my images; but no images. On the PC Tablet, all four images are there and when you click them, then enlarge and are crystal clear.

Mark, are you on the MAC or IOS? Does attachments show.

My first time using IOS,

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Mark D Segal

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Re: LaserSoft Imaging SilverFast Ai Studio 8/Epson Expression 10000XL
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2018, 10:13:07 am »

I don't use tablets most of the time. I use a MacPro computer and all the attachments appeared. No problems.
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Mark D Segal (formerly MarkDS)
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